Little Miracles Rabbit Rescue (EDIT: STOP THE NEGATIVITY!)

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You left out key details...

Quote: "one post made by someone named Ronnie Cyr on the FB page you posted called her an "attention seeking whore" "
 
I do see Gentle Giants commenting on "the viciousness of your attack", but the derogatory name calling is blamed on Ronnie. All Gentle Giants is saying is that you reposted Ronnie's post somewhere.
 
Christine, this is why you're such a good tool for these people. They get you all wound up and turn you loose and you don't even stop to see what it is you're actually posting!

ETA: If you don't agree with the sentiments like that being posted, you have to not respond to them IN THE THREADS or you have to say you don't agree.

That's all Gentle Giants (Myrna) is saying is that by repeating their posts (without even stopping to make it clear who is saying what), you're tarred with the same brush.

ALL those links and paragraphs contain horrible personal attacks. The first link I commented on was the reference to the picture of Kristie in a hottub, and it was another 'whore' caption, along with incredibly irrelevant references to her karaoke photo.

They post perfectly normal photos that look like half the rescues in the country, but they caption them with key words like 'horror' and 'hoarder' and off you go.

They count on you and people like you to not even read it closely, you just spew it out.

You have to stop this! :shame It stresses YOU out and it stresses everybody here out. You honestly don't need it. Please just take a few deep breaths and have a nice cup of tea. You're among friends here.


sas :expressionless
 
I am now washing my paws of it all including the FB page-and all involved in it.
YUP I get too emotional and charged b/c IT HURTS ME BEYOND what words can express and the pictures tear me up(and never leave my memory)..
TOO SEE and think that ANYONE could disregaurd ANY LITTLE FUR OR FEATHER LIFE-a bunnies, a guineas, a degus, a parakeet-ALL OF THEM mean so much to me and are my world!!! No doubt.
I need that energy for what I do best here.
I am Unwatching this topic as well as the (anti)LMRR..NOW...and what better time to do it! My babies Wilders are ready to eat!
Best of luck either way.
Alls I can do is pray for all bunnies and animals in hardship but being involved in a mess like this is JUST not me...
Take good care nose bumps to the bunnies everywhere:))
ChristineLea

I wish you all the very best:)) ChristineLea
CritterCafeRescue
~Where the wilders live with the domestics in a sortof perfect Harmony~
 
Wow, reading through this entire thread, all I can say is people seem to be getting extremely wound up over things that, in all seriousness, do not look that bad (However, I haven't ever been there or anything, I am only juding from photos, stories, links online, etc.). Sure, they can be improved and all, but I don't think this is a bunny holocaust.

It's nice to see so many people on here who are level headed and actually look at the facts before jumping on the bandwagon. Kudos to you guys!

Pipp is also correct in that Kristie does not sound like she fits the typical animal hoarder. I did a 10 minute presentation this year on the psychological aspects of an animal hoarder and the fact that she adopts any of them out is a huge blaring sign that she is NOT a hoarder.

Really looking forward to that review from slavetoabunny, it'll be nice to see some photos and thoughts from someone who isn't quite as... Exciteable as most.
 
A rebuttal to the rebuttal:
*Deep breath* Okay, here we go again. First off I will say that I do NOT support the methods that the so-called “Bunny Justice” group has used. I never agreed with the personal attacks, spam on everyone’s Facebook pages, and the general unprofessionalism. Believe me, my posts on their page were deleted as well when I questioned the methods. Quotes are in red.

This may have been abusive to the volunteers who needed to use the hose, but I assure you, the rabbits really didn’t feel abused by this.


Oh yes, I used this hose. I’m not afraid to use a hose. It was a bit problematic that the hose never worked well, as it had multiple leaks. I finally purchased a new hose. By the way, I used that hose many a time in the middle of some violent FL thunderstorms. A bit scary, but the rabbits all had empty water bottles.

Rabbits are ‘air cooled’, like an old Volkswagen. They release body head mainly through their breath. A fan to dissipate the hot air so they don’t re-inhale it is just as efficient (and many will argue preferable) to air-conditioning.

Frankly, I am appalled by this dangerous misinformation. Rabbits do not release body heat mainly through their breath. They are cooled mainly by their very vascular ears, and can quickly become overheated in temperatures over 80 degrees F. I am a biologist. This information can be found in any biology 101 course, as well as many rabbit-savvy information sources.

The domestics found in US rescues are European rabbits, which live in underground burrows. They will come out for an hour or two usually twice a day to eat and frolic. Assuming the volunteers come in once or twice a day and turn the lights on, this was not a hardship for the rabbits. (For the record, no rabbits in shelters and few in rescues have regular access to sun and grass, neither does the average very spoiled house bunny).

That may be, but the overall mood in the building was very depressing – and not just for the humans.

Not sure what the alternative is here? Stuff them? Leave them in their cages? Even if a rabbit is being sent to a veterinarian for a necropsy, they need to be refrigerated or frozen. Cremation is expensive, burying them in the yard is a viable option. Necropsies are not needed if the cause of death is already known, and often inconclusive.

It’s a problem when the dead keep piling up. I have a list of about 30 known bunny deaths from 2008-2009. It’s a problem when volunteers are instructed to place 3 bunnies who died on the same day in the fridge (Faever, Sophie, and Foo) for a necropsy that never happened. They were in there for about 2 weeks before the volunteers finally buried them. This was the same fridge in which volunteers were instructed to keep veggie donations.

This sounds like a personal disagreement, but not abuse. If the rabbits were truly starving, this would have been at the top of this list. Reading between the lines, I suspect Ms. Corson was hoping for or expecting support in this area from the volunteers, who in turn thought Ms. Corson should be responsible for this on her own. (For the record, the volunteers traditionally supply at least some of the food with my rescue).

Once again, it’s a problem when volunteers go over to feed, and there’s no food. I do not think it’s appropriate to EXPECT volunteers to supply the food. Sure, it’s good when they do. The problem is that we were forced to. At the time, I was making $12 an hour with no benefits. Sorry, I can’t support the entire rescue, as much as I would have liked to. When Ms. Corson left for vacation in both June and July of 2009, I was forced to buy kitten food and toys, hedgehog food, hamster food, litter, and vegetables. I brought my own guinea pig pellets over because Ms. Corson was feeding them rabbit pellets. If you’re a guinea pig person, you know this can be a fatal mistake. I had to buy all of these items because they were not supplied and I had NO OTHER CHOICE.

Produce is often donated by produce retailers and distributors and having volunteers picking it up is a duty often listed on rescue ‘to do’ lists. And bunnies munching on greens is a great photo opp. Pellets can be quickly consumed before the shots are done, and getting them to eat hay on cue isn’t as easy.


Once again, volunteers were generally forced to buy veggies for the buns. They certainly did not receive them on a regular basis. I DID research places to donate veggies. I found a local veggie market that was glad to donate veggies. I picked them up. Ms. Corson informed me that it was too hard to pick through the veggies, and to stop picking them up. We also had an adopter who owns a hydroponic farm donate veggies. Ms. Corson got into a personal argument with him and cut him off.

This may be irresponsible (which begs the question, did the volunteers not keep them secure, either?), but hardly abuse. (The word ‘frequently I’m sure would be argued, I seem to recall the rescue’s blog alluding to two or three litters over many years). The mortality rate can be high for babies, especially if they’re not intentionally bred and the pregnancy is unexpected.

The cages were rickety and not secure – no amount of volunteers securing them would make them escape-proof. The awful wood kennels had holes cut to allow for “recessed litter boxes” that never worked. Ms. Corson’s solution was to place NIC panels over them. We wanted to staple them down, but Ms. Corson would not replace the broken staple gun. It was simple for buns to move the panels and hop down to their downstairs neighbors. This was a regular occurrence. There were more litters than the rescue’s blog referred to. Most of the babies died.

A long-standing argument in rescue is whether rabbits being kept in poor conditions should be purchased in order to ‘rescue’ them. This is one of those agree to disagree differences that can never be called right or wrong. It is certainly not abuse. Neither is choosing to pay for a rabbit you're fallen in love with. Rabbits pregnancies in rescue are not uncommon because they are really only old enough to be spayed and neutered when they’re old enough to breed. Sometimes the realization they’re old enough comes just a little too late! They are also often mis-sexed, even by vets. (For the record, my rescue mascot is a mis-sexed Flemish bought from somebody who was selling him for meat. Sue me).


Yes, I know this is a hot topic. I purchased my first bun at a pet store, and will never do so again. I most certainly will never buy from a breeder. I work in rescue, and I am personally acquainted with the unwanted castoffs. However, I know that other people have their opinions, and they are entitled to them. What bothers me about Ms. Corson’s role in this is that she lied about purchasing from a breeder. She has purchased from breeders on multiple occasions (her Flemmies have come from a breeder in Georgia). She has done this herself, and yet publicly berates anyone who has done the same. She is a hypocrite.

Ms. Corson likely thought these animals all needed help. If they didn’t need help but the volunteers resented caring for them, this is grounds for being ‘disgruntled’, but again, nothing even remotely related to abuse.

Maybe she did. I don’t know. I will tell you that she bragged about her purebred Akita and Flemish giants. I will also tell you this: I will NEVER regret caring for any animal. You have no idea the hours I put in caring for her personal animals because she didn’t. I saw them suffering, so I emptied their litter boxes. I filled their food dishes. I filled their water. Her French lop Sophie died in my arms, and I broke down crying.

Shelters and rescues routinely stack cages, I’m sure the rabbits really don’t care if they’re stacked. Yes, I’m sure the disgruntled volunteers talked among themselves. A lot.

I’m fine with stacked cages. At this moment, I have two temporary fosters currently stacked in dog crates in my bedroom. The problem with the stacked cages at LMRR was that they were not sturdy. They collapsed. They were absolutely unsafe. Volunteers would place pens on the floor and attempt to get the buns out of the dangerous cages, but Ms. Corson moved them back, saying it looked “messy”.

Key words, “at one time.” It only takes one animal coming in with fleas to infest the herd, and they will show signs of the infestation before they’re gone. (Even the Four Seasons can get bed bugs). Worms are found in almost all rabbits rescued outdoors. Most are not an immediate threat and can wait until meds are donated or funds are on hand for purchases. Rescuers and volunteers don’t always agree on treatments, common argument in rescue.


Well, I don’t know about the person that wrote “at one time”. When I was there, there was a constant severe flea problem. The building remained untreated. She DID give ivermectin shots on occasion. Do you deny that untreated coccidia is a problem? That was rampant there as well. A rabbit that we had begged Ms. Corson to get to the vet was adopted out. Heroic measures were taken to save the rabbit (Mooshu). The rabbit was dead a few days later. Pam Brooks, Ms. Corson’s adoption counselor, told me that the vet had concluded that the rabbit died of hepatic coccidiosis.

Most main rescues here have this same number.


That may be, but LMRR did not have the space, funds, or sufficient volunteers to take care of that number. Every situation is different. You can’t apply a number across the board and say it’s okay.

Not sure what this means, maybe they were cheap to feed and/or easy to adopt out for a decent adoption fee? Can’t think of a scenario where this would be abusive or criminal.


Perhaps it’s not criminal, but as a guinea pig lover, I found her references to them as “easy money” appalling. As I stated above, I brought my own guinea pig pellets to the rescue pigs because she refused to feed them anything but rabbit pellets.

Rescued rabbits very often come in with such ailments. The photo posted falls under the milder end of the scale, a rabbit can look like that two or three days into a urinary tract infection. Rescuers can fall ill or have family or personal emergencies. Rescuers depend on volunteers to help with their care and suffer through periods when nobody’s available or they’ve walked out in a huff. Sometimes disgruntled volunteers show up when asked but instead of helping, they take pictures.

I am personally offended by this statement. You have no idea of the blood, sweat, and tears that myself and the other volunteers put into caring for those rabbits. We literally begged her to take them to the vet. I COULD NOT afford it, otherwise I would have. I didn’t walk out “in a huff”. It KILLED me to leave those rabbits. I still have NIGHTMARES about leaving those rabbits. Okay, maybe the illnesses started out as mild, but they were often left untreated. She also gave home remedies. One day, we noticed Flower (who had lived at the rescue for around a year – she had not come in like this) was having neurological symptoms. We were promised she would see a vet. She never did. Ms. Corson self-diagnosed Flower with diabetes and was “treating” her with Karo syrup. She was finally taken into foster by a volunteer, taken to a rabbit-savvy vet, and diagnosed with EC. The vet said her prognosis would have been much better if she had been treated earlier. Flower is dead now.

This sounds personal, differing opinions. Bruised egos, not bruised rabbits. Not abuse.

Really? What about when the volunteers come together as a group and say, “We CANNOT take in any more animals. We can’t care for the ones we have” and are dismissed. What about when the volunteers beg for vet care for a bunny that needs it? This has nothing to do with ego, I assure you.

The rabbits were probably up for euthanization before Ms. Corson rescued them. Being overwhelming/sick and threatening/whining about not continuing with the rescue would mean taking them to a shelter where they’d likely be put down. It’s a short surrendering = killing them leap. But we’ve all threatened to kill someone or something in our lives. (My rabbit just are my phone charger, she’s been subjected to all manner of death threats).


This is why we were afraid to leave or speak out. She threatened this on a regular basis. You’re really defending that? And no, these were not joking death threats.

If these are the important ones, it’s Corson by a landslide. There is NOTHING about rabbits starving, injured or dying, no emaciated rabbits. The photos posted shows full litterboxes, mild urine scald and a urine-soaked floor outside the cages – the latter a sign that the rabbits are getting run time and not always cooped up. (They will always urinate in front of the other cages to establish territory, Twenty cages on the ground = 20 puddles x 10 rabbits loose between clean-ups = 200 puddles = a urine-soaked floor. The pictures show that the white rabbits paws are white and not urine stained, a sign that the cages are kept clean. Continuing exposure to urine will quickly stain their feet. The photos also ook like the majority of rabbit rescues in terms of rabbits, cages and space in spite of captions about hoarding.

Really? The litter boxes with more poop than litter are okay? I might go an extra day before cleaning my bunnies’ boxes if I’ve had a long day at work, but I can assure you that they have NEVER looked like that. I pray that you never have to experience dumping litter boxes full of writhing maggots. As you can imagine, it’s quite horrifying. I hope you never have to try to clean 80 litter boxes in 100 degree heat with fleas mauling your legs. The urine on the floor was urine that had leaked down through the wood kennels. Every time we made a pen and labeled it “EXERCISE PEN – DO NOT KEEP A BUNNY IN HERE” (oh yes I made that sign), we found another new arrival in it. I KNOW that rabbits are messy. I’ve had rabbits for 10 years. I also know what’s normal, and what is unacceptable.

I’d hazard a guess you’re not mentioning instances of Ms. Corson using her own funds to pay rescue-related costs. Party supplies can mean event supplies, a common fundraising expenditure. (Isn’t a ‘crafty’ way of explaining is a good thing?)

I witnessed her using donations to purchase personal things. I find this inappropriate. And believe me, she paid herself back many times over for anything she used her own funds for.

Rescues will attempt to raise funds for an idea or project all the time and if not enough funds are raised, the idea isn’t implemented and the funds are redirected to another project. If the donors have a problem with this, it’s up to them to complain, and not a group disgruntled ex-volunteers. After reading the voluminous material presented by this group for years, I don’t recall seeing a complaint from a third-party donor.

I believe that many of these donors are unaware that these projects never came to fruition. Personal opinion.

When somebody hands me cash, I put it in my purse or pocket, I think this is pretty common! In a statement below, you say Ms. Corson was the only one with access to the books, so how do you know it wasn’t recorded? “Necessary” is subjective.

Yes, I agree, but when I have money that’s not mine to spend I place it in a pocket separate from my own money. Ms. Corson did not. I saw the extent of her financial records. It was an unorganized drawer full of receipts. And is candy for herself necessary? This is an example of an unnecessary purchase.

Again, people expecting a tax-deductible receipt should be the ones to complain and there is no evidence of any such complaints. The IRS doesn’t take these things lightly thus I doubt your version of these events.


Just because people haven’t complained doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. She did get in trouble with the State of Florida for not collecting sales tax on the items in her “store”.

There is a note on Ms. Corson’s site or blog that references the rescue having to reapply for a different level of tax exemption that has a higher filing fee. I suspect this is another normal procedure you’re trying to twist into a ‘crime’.

She has had several different fundraisers over the years that were supposed to pay for the filing fee. It has not yet happened.

How do you know she didn’t pay for them? I have yet to see a rabbit rescue or shelter at this level capable of having more income than output.


I personally know several people (my co-workers) who donated items for the yard sale that Ms. Corson kept for herself. She did not pay them for the items.

This is the mortgage on the rescue building I assume? If all you can muster in a ‘spending rescue funds on herself’ accusation is paying for a tattoo, however large, it sounds like you’re REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Do you have any idea how expensive tattoos are? Really? You’re defending that? Using donation for a personal use such as that is NEVER appropriate.

The rest:
As I’ve said, I’ve seen the extent of her records, at least as it was in Florida. She tried to tell me to fudge info on a form to work with Petsmart. She wanted me to fill out 501c3 paperwork when I was there. I had no idea how, and didn’t feel comfortable doing it.

To the person that made the comment that people on this thread who are concerned about Ms. Corson’s treatment of the rabbits don’t have many posts – I had no idea this forum even existed until it was brought to my attention by this thread. I spend most of my rabbit forum time on Bunspace – so I am an active member of a DIFFERENT rabbit forum.

I can’t make anyone believe me. All I can do is put my experiences out there. What on earth do I have to gain from this? It is a constant source of stress to me. I hate arguing with people. I have a life. I work 45-55 hours a week. I’m still rescuing bunnies. I have my own fuzzy kids to take care of. I would love nothing more than to just run away from all of this, but the rabbits keep me going.
 
All of it is freaking hearsay! My question continues to be ignored (where are the big figures in rabbit welfare? The support from the big reputable rescues in the country?) just like the fact no kind of lawful action has been taken despite photo's and supposed YEARS of horrific abuse by a psychopath.
 
Wow, apparently Pipp's pretty well thought out replies are "stupid". That is a GREAT way to show just how intelligent and mature your arguements are, if this Facebook group is anything to go by...

https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_191071520923696

Don't people ever think that making a mature rebuttal is the better way to go about it? lagomorphlvr is an excellent example, because it seemed to be fact and not as 'in your face, accept my words as truth dammit' as some other posters.

I just find this sort of childish hate annoying...
 
Good at raising funds? Oh yes.

The thing that really bothered me from your post, Pipp, is the part where you say that you haven't yet found things to rebutt in somebody's messages. Is that what you're searching for everywhere? I would have hoped that people would come to this with an open mind rather than with a determination to prove one side or another.

Please don't consider for a moment that I might be using an alias. My name is Roslyn Lamb. I am a 59 year old retired teacher from north east England. Have a look on Facebook...you'll find a lot of people there among my friends who I used to teach.

I have no problems at all with you promoting an outside living system for rabbit, provided it's safe and protects them from the elements and from predators. Outdoors is the norm in the UK and certainly in our climate and with our very few predators, it's a very healthy way of life for them. Mine live indoors at night and are freerange but they have access to outdoors during the day.

Breeders? Well, not my favourites, but I'd rather build bridges than walls.

I can't remember what else I said in my original posting to this thread, that turned up blank when I hit the send button. What I do remember is about health inspections...

I feel it's a dreadful shame that news of the inspection was leaked in advance. No properly run organisation should be afraid of an unannounced inspection. None should need several days' warning of its happening. Whatever is there should be open to the inspectors at any time. If it had happened without people making claims, giving warnings, etc, then one set or other of voices in this debate could have been stilled for good.
 
RosL wrote:


Well now...how surprising. I have just written a lengthy reply...that has turned up entirely blank! Does my voice carry the wrong message?

Ros, I thought you of all people would be above the conspiracy theories. Do you also believe I'm Kristie Corson?

Good at raising funds? Oh yes.
Sarcasm noted, but I don't know why. On one hand you say she doesn't have the funds to support that many rabbits, on the other hand you criticize her for her almost exception skills re: fundraising and events. You can't have it both ways.

But of course you're zeroing in on what you've been told by the near-professional lambasters that she's abusing rabbits because she paid for a tattoo out of donation money and kept some yard sale junk (which she may or may not have paid for -- and I don't mean paid the people who DONATED it, but called it part of her funds going into the rescue). This is putting her under a microscope with nickel and dime harassment.

You're in England and hardly in a position to have seen the books.

More smoke and mirrors similar to the groups immediate claims accusing her of not sharing the funds raised for the Florida rescue within days -- if not hours -- of the rescue happening, prior to any chance anyone had to even list the expenses much less send a check.

The thing that really bothered me from your post, Pipp, is the part where you say that you haven't yet found things to rebutt in somebody's messages. Is that what you're searching for everywhere?

It bothers me that you don't take it as research. I found nothing to confirm it either, and if I had, you would have read about it.

I feel it's a dreadful shame that news of the inspection was leaked in advance. No properly run organisation should be afraid of an unannounced inspection. None should need several days' warning of its happening. Whatever is there should be open to the inspectors at any time. If it had happened without people making claims, giving warnings, etc, then one set or other of voices in this debate could have been stilled for good.

Roslyn, don't drink the kool-aid, it's laced with arsenic. This makes me realize how Jim Jones managed to get 1000 people to off themselves.

The story has gone from 'being shut down for filthy conditions' to 'the news of the inspection was leaked in advance' which I guess means no filthy conditions, huh? They can't get their story straight and you're just falling for the company line.

You have no way of knowing if Kristie was 'afraid' of the inspection!

Have you talked to the current volunteers? I'm sure they'll be happy to describe the conditions!

No organization should be subjected to investigation after investigation with every intention of making them all 'surprises'.

You're desperate to find what, a dirty litter box?

Rabbits eat and poop! There will NEVER be clean litter boxes! 100 rabbits eat and poop A LOT!

There is NOTHING to indicate you're going to find abused, sick or dying rabbits!

You're smarter than this!

:p
 
The empty message is there to see, Pipp. No I believe you're who you say you are...but I do wonder how the message ended up as it did. I did precisely the same the second time as I did the first. Let's blame the electronic gubbins, eh?

No sarcasm. That was irony.

Where did I say she hadn't enough funds to support the rabbits? I don't recall saying that at all. Did I at some point say that the rabbits weren't getting what they needed - from what I've been told, (which, let's face it, is the same way you're getting your information. Or am I wrong there? Have you actually visited yourself?) which is a different thing altogether.

>>on the other hand you criticize her for her almost exception skills re: fundraising and events<<

Can you direct me please to where I said that. I may be getting old, but I don't think my memory is quite this bad yet.

>>you're zeroing in on what you've been told by the near-professional lambasters <<

Actually, as I said in an earlier mail, I am listening to people who I already know from other sources and whose word I have no reason whatsoever to doubt. I have not known them exaggerate, lie, misrepresent nor anything of the sort. You said, if I remember correctly - and please do correct me if I have this wrong - that I have this from Christine Lea. That is not the case. Furthermore, I have nothing to do with the Bunny Justice group. BJ are ridiculous and all they have achieved with their sniping, their personal nastiness, their childishness is to turn people who might otherwise have wanted to know the truth into supporters of LMRR. This is what I want - to know the entire truth, and that's why I wish nothing at all had been said about the Health Dept's visit in advance, so that the truth would have been available to us all.

To return to Christine Lea, I hope she won't mind my saying this, yes I am a member of some of the same groups as she is, fewer than in the past, though. When this thread was active a while ago and evidence was being provided in a calm and reasoned way by posters, Christine Lea was somewhat outspoken and the thread was closed. I wrote to her, very angry, feeling and saying that had she been more measured in her comments, that might not have happened. I won't repeat here what was said as it was a private conversation, but believe me, I do not support such outspoken, emotive posting that gets nobody anywhere.

>>You're in England and hardly in a position to have seen the books. <<

I am, and you, I believe, are in Canada.

>>More smoke and mirrors similar to the groups immediate claims accusing her of not sharing the funds raised for the Florida rescue within days -- if not hours -- of the rescue happening, prior to any chance anyone had to even list the expenses much less send a check. <<

Which group do you mean, Pipp? You've lost me, I'm afraid. Is this something from Bunny Justice? I don't follow their FB (though I think I've probably forgotten to 'unfriend' them...FB is not my strength) nor their websites so don't know what has been said. Or is it something I missed from this thread? Since you earlier told Christine Lea that responses to what people post should be made in the appropriate place, I assume that must be the case and I've missed it.

>>Roslyn, don't drink the kool-aid, it's laced with arsenic<<

Earlier you accused me of sarcasm.......

Sorry, no idea at all who Jim Jones is. You've entirely lost me there.

I repeat here

>>>>>>I feel it's a dreadful shame that news of the inspection was leaked in advance. No properly run organisation should be afraid of an unannounced inspection. None should need several days' warning of its happening. Whatever is there should be open to the inspectors at any time. If it had happened without people making claims, giving warnings, etc, then one set or other of voices in this debate could have been stilled for good.<<<<<<<<

An organisation with nothing to hide has nothing to fear.

Oh sorry. Just read what you said...>>The story has gone from 'being shut down for filthy conditions' to 'the news of the inspection was leaked in advance' which I guess means no filthy conditions, huh? <<

My meaning was that because people who had found out in advance couldn't wait to open their mouths, time was available to the rescue to hide what they didn't want to be seen. Did they need to? Well, who's to know? I can't say with 100% certainty that they did. Can you say with 100% certainty that they didn't? I repeat, only an unanounced, unscheduled visit will ever be able to uncover the truth, not one where an entire weekend is available to stage a cover-up...whether that happened or not, which NONE of us knows for absolutely certain.

>>You have no way of knowing if Kristie was 'afraid' of the inspection! <<

No, I haven't, any more than anybody knows that she wasn't.

>>Have you talked to the current volunteers? I'm sure they'll be happy to describe the conditions! <<

Has any of us?

>>No organization should be subjected to investigation after investigation with every intention of making them all 'surprises'. <<

I repeat...maybe I haven't made this clear yet...no organisation should have any need to worry about any unannounced inspection. Has LMRR ever had one? From what I understand..please do correct me if I have got this wrong...with details, please, if you don't mind...LMRR has never had such an inspection.

Yes, I did see the photos of a clean rescue and pictures of a lot of labelled files with paper in them. I've got lots of files with paper in them. Sorry, but that proves nothing.

>>You're desperate to find what, a dirty litter box?

Rabbits eat and poop! There will NEVER be clean litter boxes! 100 rabbits eat and poop A LOT!<<

What I am desperate to find, Pipp, is the truth....and I believe I already know it.

I suppose we have the same aim since we both want the truth and we both believe we know it. The difference appears to be, I wasn't wanting to make this personal between you and me.




 
For the benefit of those who have said that LMRR only cleans up the shelter in advance of inspections, special events, etc., the shelter is now open to the public 2 hours each day (I believe 6 days per week). Previously, it was by appointment only until they built up their volunteer base enough to staff it everyday. I guess this means that it will have to be kept clean, doesn't it?
 
Lagomorphlvr (I researched who you were but your name escapes me), thank you for a thoughtful post.

I forgot or missed your previous post(s).

lagomorphlvr wrote:
Rabbits are ‘air cooled’, like an old Volkswagen. They release body head mainly through their breath. A fan to dissipate the hot air so they don’t re-inhale it is just as efficient (and many will argue preferable) to air-conditioning.

Frankly, I am appalled by this dangerous misinformation. Rabbits do not release body heat mainly through their breath. They are cooled mainly by their very vascular ears, and can quickly become overheated in temperatures over 80 degrees F. I am a biologist. This information can be found in any biology 101 course, as well as many rabbit-savvy information sources.

Uh, be appalled at the vet textbooks. ;)

This was my humorous but not detailed 'quick' explanation of and extremely complicated subject, and while this summary falls short, it is in effect correct.

Its obvious that temperature control is the key because if the building was cool, there wouldn't be a heat stress problem, but it also boils down to ventilation and humidity. In this situation, a proper fan is as good as the air conditioner, possibly better.

The oft-used information I have quoted assigns 80% of heat dissipation to respiration, eg: "[size=Rabbits are cooled primarily by respiration, with the ears playing an important part in thermoregulation. In fact, about 80% of heat dissipation occurs through the evaporation of moisture during breathing, with the ears creating a radiator effect.][/size][size=

It's from a veterinary text and is quoted often by vets, like here:

[url]http://www.lakehowellanimalclinic.com/html/heat_stress_in_rabbits.html[/url]
][/size]

The key sign of overheating is moisture around the mouth and chin.

However, while I do quote it, I actually question the high percentage myself, but none-the-less, the respiration and nasal mucosa accounts for the larger portion.

The studies I rely on in this case are production and agriculture sources because I find that shelter situations are closer to these criteria than house rabbits. There is a lot of weight given to ventilation, and being in Florida, the humidity. Those are both major factors in determining the best sources of heat control.

Here's a specific quote:

Dept. of Agriculture:

Temperature.
Temperature is the most important factor as it directly affects a number of elements. Rabbits have a constant internal (rectal) temperature so heat production and losses must vary to maintain body temperature (Table 49). They do this by modifying their feed intake level (regulating production), as described in the chapter on nutrition. They use three devices to modify heat loss: general body position, breathing rate and peripheral temperature, especially ear temperature (Table 49). If the ambient temperature is low (below 10°C) the animals curl up to minimize the total area losing heat and lower their ear temperature. If the temperature is high (above 25° to 30°C), the animals stretch out so they can lose as much heat as possible by radiation and convection, and step up their ear temperature. The ears function like a car radiator. The efficiency of the cooling system depends on the air speed around the animal. At the same time the animal pants to increase heat loss through evaporation of water (latent heat). The sweat glands are not functional in rabbits and the only controlled means of latent heat evacuation is by altering the breathing rate. Perspiration (the evacuation of water through skin) is never great because of the fur.
It also has to be noted and considered that there has to be great care taken to prevent the spread of respiratory diseases, and they also need to meed a specific set of criteria based on air flow and humidity. The two have to be regulated together.

It really gets complicated. But as a biologist, check it out and feel free to share your findings (although maybe best in another thread, LOL!).


Not sure what the alternative is here? Stuff them? Leave them in their cages? Even if a rabbit is being sent to a veterinarian for a necropsy, they need to be refrigerated or frozen. Cremation is expensive, burying them in the yard is a viable option. Necropsies are not needed if the cause of death is already known, and often inconclusive.

It’s a problem when the dead keep piling up. I have a list of about 30 known bunny deaths from 2008-2009. It’s a problem when volunteers are instructed to place 3 bunnies who died on the same day in the fridge (Faever, Sophie, and Foo) for a necropsy that never happened. They were in there for about 2 weeks before the volunteers finally buried them. This was the same fridge in which volunteers were instructed to keep veggie donations.

This sounds like a personal disagreement, but not abuse. If the rabbits were truly starving, this would have been at the top of this list. Reading between the lines, I suspect Ms. Corson was hoping for or expecting support in this area from the volunteers, who in turn thought Ms. Corson should be responsible for this on her own. (For the record, the volunteers traditionally supply at least some of the food with my rescue).

I have a big problem with information like this because while you and the others allude to dead and dying rabbits, nobody has ever stated what these rabbits died from. I think given the viciousness of the attacks and the ongoing battle to report her to the authorities, these rabbits would have been 'evidence' and we'd be seeing specifics on the deaths.

I see elsewhere you discuss the litters that were born dead or died, do these figures include those? Are you saying that abuse or neglect killed these rabbits or not? Could they not have been taken to the vet or the SPCA for examinations?

Sorry, but I find these shadowy references odorous.

Well, I don’t know about the person that wrote “at one time”. When I was there, there was a constant severe flea problem. The building remained untreated. She DID give ivermectin shots on occasion. Do you deny that untreated coccidia is a problem? That was rampant there as well. A rabbit that we had begged Ms. Corson to get to the vet was adopted out. Heroic measures were taken to save the rabbit (Mooshu). The rabbit was dead a few days later. Pam Brooks, Ms. Corson’s adoption counselor, told me that the vet had concluded that the rabbit died of hepatic coccidiosis.

Ivermectin is not my choice for fleas.

Our forum has had members with extremely well-kept barns wiped out by coccidia, it's not a sign of bad conditions or abuse.

We do separate fundraising for a medical fund, we'll have a vet do free health checks and/or staff do nail clippings and all those funds go directly to the Vet. When we get to the 'solutions' part of this mess (which I fully intend to do), a medical coordinator or a vet on the board of directors might be a strong suggestion.

So would calls for donations of meds like Revolution or Advantage, Panacur, etc, again given to the Vet.

Kristie is or at least should be awesome at promoting the Vets and should be getting free or heavily discounted services for her efforts. They get lots of advertising in exchange for their services.

But of course vets won't be too keen on aligning themselves with a rescue under attack now, would they? And yes, I'm aware of her current vet, Lori Duggan, but I don't know what deal they have.

I think continuing to slag Kristie is going to result in even more medical problems for these reasons. However it started out is immaterial. The detractors are contributing to these kinds of difficulties now.


I am personally offended by this statement. You have no idea of the blood, sweat, and tears that myself and the other volunteers put into caring for those rabbits. We literally begged her to take them to the vet. I COULD NOT afford it, otherwise I would have. I didn’t walk out “in a huff”. It KILLED me to leave those rabbits. I still have NIGHTMARES about leaving those rabbits. Okay, maybe the illnesses started out as mild, but they were often left untreated. She also gave home remedies. One day, we noticed Flower (who had lived at the rescue for around a year – she had not come in like this) was having neurological symptoms. We were promised she would see a vet. She never did. Ms. Corson self-diagnosed Flower with diabetes and was “treating” her with Karo syrup. She was finally taken into foster by a volunteer, taken to a rabbit-savvy vet, and diagnosed with EC. The vet said her prognosis would have been much better if she had been treated earlier. Flower is dead now.
Okay, I'm jaded here, because I have volunteers who demand I take rabbits to the vet for every sneeze, and they have no faith in my experience. (They don't actually even know me).

But rabbits are not prone to diabetes and Karo syrup is awful stuff for them. EC should always be suspected and a round of Panacur administered even if its on spec.

The above suggestions apply here as well.

When facts like these come out it makes me wonder why this considerable effort directed at shutting her down isn't redirected to lobbying for or even fundraising for a Vet fund, appointing a medical coordinator or scheduling regular vet visits (which I do believe is happening now with the mobile vet, Dr. Duggan). I think that would be far more productive and healthier for the rabbits.


This sounds personal, differing opinions. Bruised egos, not bruised rabbits. Not abuse.

Really? What about when the volunteers come together as a group and say, “We CANNOT take in any more animals. We can’t care for the ones we have” and are dismissed. What about when the volunteers beg for vet care for a bunny that needs it? This has nothing to do with ego, I assure you.
Why didn't the volunteers try to go public with this type of campaign? Keep the demands reasonable (keeping in mind we ALL have our own opinions on vet care) and only expect concessions, not surrender. Go for moderation or mediation. All we've heard is the 'shut the whore down' rhetoric.


The rabbits were probably up for euthanization before Ms. Corson rescued them. Being overwhelming/sick and threatening/whining about not continuing with the rescue would mean taking them to a shelter where they’d likely be put down. It’s a short surrendering = killing them leap. But we’ve all threatened to kill someone or something in our lives. (My rabbit just are my phone charger, she’s been subjected to all manner of death threats).

This is why we were afraid to leave or speak out. She threatened this on a regular basis. You’re really defending that? And no, these were not joking death threats.
This is not different than what the BJ crew and others are pushing for now -- they want to shut down the rescue. She's not going to murder them, she's going to give them up. That's exactly what BJ and you guys want, isn't it? Why is it different now? There will still be 80 rabbits on the chopping block.

Really? The litter boxes with more poop than litter are okay? I might go an extra day before cleaning my bunnies’ boxes if I’ve had a long day at work, but I can assure you that they have NEVER looked like that. I pray that you never have to experience dumping litter boxes full of writhing maggots. As you can imagine, it’s quite horrifying. I hope you never have to try to clean 80 litter boxes in 100 degree heat with fleas mauling your legs. The urine on the floor was urine that had leaked down through the wood kennels. Every time we made a pen and labeled it “EXERCISE PEN – DO NOT KEEP A BUNNY IN HERE” (oh yes I made that sign), we found another new arrival in it. I KNOW that rabbits are messy. I’ve had rabbits for 10 years. I also know what’s normal, and what is unacceptable.
Yes that sounds bad, but have you had 80 rabbits for 10 years? I have about sixty and I've gotten the meds donated so the fleas are gone, but sometimes my house looks just like the photos, should I give it up and just have them euthanized after all? Believe me, if all the people who complain about absolutely everything related to our rescue efforts were the ones responsible for the 80 rabbits, I think they'd be a whole lot quieter.

And try going to some hellhole and seeing a truly abused litter of 10 Flemish Giants all kept in one 2' x 4' cage until their almost three months old and stand there and say 'sorry babies, I don't have enough time, money or volunteers to get you out of here' when there's an empty x-pen in the garage.

And on that note, I have to stop this and take one of those babies -- terribly deformed but alive and happy as all get-out living under my kitchen table -- to the vet for a head abscess that I have no idea how I'm going to pay for.


sas :confused2:
 
slavetoabunny wrote:
For the benefit of those who have said that LMRR only cleans up the shelter in advance of inspections, special events, etc., the shelter is now open to the public 2 hours each day (I believe 6 days per week). Previously, it was by appointment only until they built up their volunteer base enough to staff it everyday. I guess this means that it will have to be kept clean, doesn't it?

Heh! Yeah, I saw a reference to the 'Poo Crew' shirts! Too funny!!

(And brilliant!!)


:biggrin:
 
RosL wrote:
The empty message is there to see, Pipp.
Ros, I have no power to make your post blank when you hit the send button.

Its a software glitch! :rollseyes

PS: If I am making this personal, it's only because I have a ton of respect for you with all your other endeavors, you're one of the best communicators and information dissemination of rabbit stuff on the net, but I honestly think you've been sold a bill of goods and you're falling for the 'spin'.

You're just so above all this. :?

 
Pipp wrote:
RosL wrote:
The empty message is there to see, Pipp.
Ros, I have no power to make your post blank when you hit the send button.

Its a software glitch! :rollseyes

PS: If I am making this personal, it's only because I have a ton of respect for you with all your other endeavors, you're one of the best communicators and information dissemination of rabbit stuff on the net, but I honestly think you've been sold a bill of goods and you're falling for the 'spin'.

You're just so above all this. :?
I feel unable to ignore a situation of this sort, Pipp.

I am certainly not above trying to find out more about what I see as a very worrying situation, and I do trust the people who have given me information, who, let me reiterate, are intelligent, trustworthy people who have seen it with their own eyes, have no reason that I can see to lie and like me, want the truth to be known to the wider public.

I have no truck with anybody who stoops to personal sniping.
 
It seems to me that there is a lot of energy being put into either ripping this woman down or defending her. I would have to ask people on both sides to ask themselves why are they so involved and what is the real motive behind their involvement? (You don't need to tell me why, this is a question you need to give some thought to yourself). Please don't fool yourself into thinking that it's "for the rabbits". At this point it no longer is. I've been involved with different rescues and have done rescue for a long time. Most rescuers, including myself are very codependant. We want to save everyone and take control of the situation because we feel we can do a better job than anyone else. We always want to save someone, human or animal. Helping is fine but when it gets to the point that we are spending more time involved in someone else's life than our own it has become a problem. This is why we become so exhausted and worn out.

I am not emotionally involved with this on either side. I am curious though to know the truth. The only people who know the truth are those who were actually there. Everyone else has just taken sides and their posts only serve to defend their position. It really is a waste of energy.

At this point we probably will never know for sure. Things have gotten very convoluted because so many people are involved and there is so much arguing going back and forth. People are more caught up in trying to be right more than anything else.

The experiences that I have read on this forum from the people that used to volunteer at LMMR are the only thing that i have to go on. What they have shared brings up red flags for me about the rescue if they are true. I don't personally feel from what I have read that they are lying but of course I don't know that for sure. Rebuttals and things of that nature don't help to find the truth because they are only one person's opinion on what they feel about the situation. The volunteers are saying "this is what happened, we saw it". Pipp responded, for example, by basically saying "Ok, but those things aren't that bad and I don't classify that as abuse". That is only her opinion and we can either agree or disagree with her. It doesn't prove whether it happened or not. I'm more interested in knowing what really did happen and then I will make my own decision on how I feel about it. I expect things will sort themselves out one way or another but we may never get all our questions answered.
 
Why exactly was my last posts deleted? By the way, Patti, while she said that the shelter is open to the public. On wednesday someone that I know actually went to her shelter so she could see what was going on herself, during the hours of operation. And guess what? No one was even there!
 

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