Breeding? Or no babies?

Discussion in 'Rabbit Knowledge Library' started by TheBookWorm107, Jun 15, 2019.

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  1. Jun 15, 2019 #1

    TheBookWorm107

    TheBookWorm107

    TheBookWorm107

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    A249FAD6-E089-44C2-8B2D-1942FC407001.jpeg D154AB73-2377-4F67-94E5-1EB0F7D25E50.jpeg D154AB73-2377-4F67-94E5-1EB0F7D25E50.jpeg D7DFD1EA-9BFC-4B3F-827E-9DBEEC99D9F6.jpeg 1B4DFFBD-58DA-4A87-9B48-D915EDAE8500.jpeg B333E5B1-7D3E-4558-B32A-C850BE83C9BD.jpeg DC86B565-C1EB-4C16-8F11-054B689FC3D6.jpeg 54FA56BA-21AF-4EF8-B0B2-B46FB62F08A7.jpeg B2A15CF8-FE44-46CE-99FB-1FC1B35E3A31.jpeg 892A6ED7-8FE8-408C-B6D1-3A3E6B1A43FF.jpeg 28F7B5DA-B924-4A10-8A84-E1B8EEE217E0.png So I have posted about Valdez and Saori in the past.
    Valdez was born in January, he is a Lionhead with a double mane
    Saori was born in March, and she is a broken cream English Lop. She is currently 8 pounds.
    Neither of them have been fixed.

    Colorings: cream & white fur with gray/blue eyes
    Fawn with chocolate markings and mahogany brown eyes

    So here’s my delihma, I’ve already successfully bonded them. They live in different cages but they share the same floor space to run. Usually 6 hours a day, and Saori gets an additional hour outside on her harness. Otherwise is she territorial of her litter box and cage and will snort in anger to make herself clear that she won’t share that space with him. But everywhere else is fine.
    (The specialty vet gave me flea&tick meds that were safe for her. If she doesn’t get her walk she’s more irritating and rambunctious than a Great Dane living in a one-bedroom apartment with only 2 hours worth of walking per week)

    Anyway, I’m planning to get them fixed a week apart from each other, but I’m wondering if I should let them have 1 litter first? I’d keep one baby and bond the three together then take the remainder down to the Rabbit Rescue in Columbus. And most likely the staff would probably bond them to a fellow bunny and the two would end up adopted together to a nice home.

    I’ve never done breeding. I only know the basics of nesting and male-humping. But I like when my babies are happy.

    Thoughts? Advice? (Only intelligent responses, no haters or unhelpful rants/opinions)
     
  2. Jun 15, 2019 #2

    Blue eyes

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    I don't see a reason to breed them for their sake.

    It's not like a rabbit "wants" babies. That would be anthropomorphizing.

    It wouldn't be for the purpose of "bettering the breed" since they aren't the same breed.

    The idea of keeping a baby isn't so great either. There is no guarantee they would bond. Trios are not easily accomplished. And the 2 cannot be considered fully bonded if they are unable to share a cage. Once they are both fixed (and the male has 4-8 weeks to heal and allow hormones to dissipate) the original two may (or may not) decide to bond. That remains to be seen.

    The thought of taking your remaining babies to a rabbit rescue has problems as well. Many rescues are over full. If they do happen to have room, they don't take kindly to being handed over babies that you deliberately bred. (Sometimes, too, people who turn in animals to a rescue are then banned from adopting any in the future.)

    For all of these reasons, I'd suggest skipping any breeding and just getting them fixed.

    (Your lop is gorgeous, btw!)
     
  3. Jun 16, 2019 #3

    John Wick

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    I agree with Blue eyes -- it's not explicitly said in your post (unless I missed it, in which case, sorry!), but it sounds like you'd like to have 1 litter so they have a chance to do so? In other words, for their sake, and if that's the case, you don't need to worry about having a litter. Rabbits do not need the experience of a litter in order to be happy at all, especially when they are fixed.

    I will also re-emphasize Blue eyes very good point that rabbit rescues are really full, and even those with room, I think those spaces should be for rabbits who have been unfortunately abandoned (non-preventable cases), rather than for rabbits who were intentionally bred and intentionally given away.
     
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  4. Sep 13, 2019 #4

    Esthezyl

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    Sorry, this is going to be a little hard to watch, but:

    http://www.friendsofunwantedrabbits.org/available-for-adoption/gone-but-not-forgotten/

    'Euthanized for lack of space'

    There are a lot of expensive breeds, litter trained and perfectly bonded bunnies in this long, long list. Whatever you do, nothing, nothing will guarantee your babies won't get the same treatment.

    Please, don't breed more bunnies, pro breeding isn't perfect (the bad 'products' end for cheap in pet stores or fairs), amateur breeding is full of risks (complications at birth, mother eating her babies because of the stress, parents of parents you don't know what genetic problems they had that might skip one generation straight to the babies, splayed legs, peanuts, etc) and shelters are already at full capacities.
     
  5. Oct 9, 2019 #5

    CharlieRae

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    Please do not breed your rabbits. Humane societies are over full, yo would only be adding to the problem.
    I'm a breeder, so I am not against breeding, but I only breed to the standard. Breeding your rabbits then dumping at the humane society is a terrible idea.
     
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  6. Oct 9, 2019 #6

    Preitler

    Preitler

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    I'm with Blue eyes there, there is no point in breeding those two. Both are breeds that need careful breeding to avoid problems due to more or less severe malformations that make them cute (lop, small, short head..), mixing them simply is a lottery that can get very expensive for later owners.

    I don't think the very thought of making the offspring someone elses problem is a good one, from whatever angle you view it.
    I do breed rabbits too, but any surplus lands on the table, I would never strain others resources just because of what I like to do. Rabbits can be a lot of work, and I can tell you I'm not thrilled about that surprise litter one of my does presented me last week, winter is comming...

    So, get them neutered/spayed, that puts an end to the craving to breed. Breeding them does not, in the countrary.

    Uhm, if they are older than 12 weeks I wouldn't let them spend any time together until they are fixed. It's not bonding if one is horny and the other interested.
     
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  7. Oct 9, 2019 #7

    zupper

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    I can't agree with that rabbits don't want babies they are amazing mothers and so happy and responsible it also helps building trust and better bond between you and your rabbit, but I completely agree with that if you want to breed your rabbit, you have to think very good and understand that you will be responsible for keeping them alive, feeding and cleaning after them for 8 weeks at least, from week 5 they will produce lots of poo&pee and you will have to clean every day at least as if you will have 6 babies means you have 7 rabbits who will eat unlimited food and hay, and they won't be toilet trained yet so you will literally have to clean very often and it will be a lot. Then you will have to find safe homes for 6 young rabbits when they are 8 weeks, and you will have to do it fast before they are 10 weeks because they will start acting as teenagers then humping each other and spraying walls so it will be extremely hard to rehome spraying rabbit, also you will have to keep boys and girls separately from week 10-12 to avoid accidental breeding and also even same sex rabbits can start fighting, girls will become territorial and boys will start fight and spray walls, so you have 2-3 weeks to find them homes, and you wand them to go to a good home not to a shed with another 20 rabbits or as a Easter bunny for a kid who will lose interest after a couple weeks or to a girl who will try beauty products on them and when they get sick will dump them you want to find good safe homes for them it is extremely hard and you only have limited time.

    Now imagine you are trying to rehome your babies and they are already in week 14-16, and you still have 4 babies and your own two. You will need to keep them all in separate cages 6 cages and let them out for a few hours a day, but also separately. If you are lucky maybe your girls will bond with their mother and can stay with her forever or until they can become sexually active a bit later depending on breed and temperament, some would stay with mother until 5 months but what I am trying to say, you will need to thing about your responsibilities before you breed them, first 6 weeks will be full of joy but then you will be in a tight spot especially if you have other commitments college or job it could be really not that easy.

    There can also be a litter of 10 so you will have 12 rabbits at hand, won't be that funny.

    So I think breeding isn't bad, irresponsible breeding is bad and also you can make a mistake there are many people taking free rabbits from ads and lying that they want them as a home pet for their sister or kid, and they end up in a shed with other dirty rabbits or used for a bait for training dogs or something, or some people love their snakes and feed baby rabbits to them, they won't tell you the truth they will come neatly dressed to collect your bunny or will send their girlfriend, also some people resale free or cheap rabbits just making money and don't really care where they go and not taking care of them. So just don't make too many babies don't put yourself in a trap make sure you will have time between 6 and 12 weeks and be prepared.

    If you feel you can make it then do it, it's lots of joy and I believe once a year or just breed once and spay after would be great experience, also I would only breed rabbits with good temperament so they can make good pets.

    Only my opinion, I am not a breeder but have some experience and know well what I am talking about.
    You will want to keep some babies for sure so be prepared ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
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  8. Oct 10, 2019 #8

    TreasuredFriend

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    5 Thousand rabbits on Petfinder needing forever homes. Doesn't take into account other shelters or rescues who use alternate search sites like Petango.

    Look at the unwanteds on Craigslist, every day, every town or city, and hundreds get abandoned. Craiglist is an awful place to peruse due to all the listings of unwanteds.

    ... too expensive, can't keep, kids won't care for, lost my job, not enough time ... allergic to hay, girlfriend/boyfriend split up, can't keep the gift from Grandmother at Eastertime...

    Rescue individuals continually accept pregnant mothers (abandoned mothers) or litters of babies due to clueless individuals with "oops" - i didn't know females are self-inducd ovulators.

    All breeders should be prepared to spay and neuter their babies before they place them in a new home. To ensure one doesn't add to the 5K amount of rabbits that aren't wanted.

    Get the book Discarded Rabbits by Lucile Moore and Debby Widolf. If you responsibly breed and find homes for each innocent life you bring into this world, with forever-home humans, that's a different situation than "oh gosh, they won't be happy if I don't let them have babies."

    T.Y. Esthezyl for the link on euthanization at high volume shelters. I will watch. Being at a shelter for several years, I saw the euthanizations that took place.
     
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  9. Oct 10, 2019 #9

    TreasuredFriend

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    I was at the shelter when a breeder/farmer surrendered his quantity of 40 rabbits. At least all 40 were PTS, instead of being butchered. Do you think the shelter has space for 40 individualized cubicles, and is able to take on sp/ay neuter for each of those buns? Shelters and rescues contend with hoarding situations as well. And most hoarders don't spay or neuter. so the unaltered cage mates come in pregnant, and in bad shape.

    We pulled from high-volume shelters (high-kill) for numerous years.
     
  10. Oct 11, 2019 #10

    zupper

    zupper

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    Look at the neutering prices - 200, 300, 400.. Who can pay that? Neutering should be subsidized surely so people just can go and get their rabbits done without robbing banks, would that decrease your numbers in shelters? I believe so!
     
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  11. Oct 11, 2019 #11

    TreasuredFriend

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    Costs of pet ownership. Dog, cat, rabbit, guinea pig, exotic bird, chinchilla.

    I watched a spay surgery at the local shelter over a decade ago. Certain protocol is used, and it differs from the more-detailed surgical attention & recovery at rabbit-knowledgeable DVM clinics. Thank goodness shelters spay & neuter to reduce the overpopulation of pets.

    Exotic DVMs need specialized training to treat our vulnerable lagomorphs. Anyone from NY or the East Coast perusing on this thread? I heard prices are higher in those regions.

    Low-cost spay/neuter clinics are out there. Rescues and shelters rely on collaborating DVMs to help w/ hoarding cases, & surrender numbers.

    http://www.njhrs.com/spayneuter.htm | https://myhouserabbit.com/new-to-rabbits/how-much-does-a-pet-rabbit-cost/ | https://www.moneyunder30.com/the-true-cost-of-pet-ownership

    https://www.petmd.com/rabbit/care/evr_rb_how-much-does-it-cost-to-care-for-a-rabbit -- Third paragraph from the bottom lists the sp/euter costs at several hundred dollars.

    Excellent info to keep in mind before you acquire a family member. Rabbits are family to their guardians like the top-2 surrendered pets.
     
  12. Oct 11, 2019 #12

    TreasuredFriend

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    - " Induced ovulators" video by Mary Cotter and Amy Sedaris / Reasons to alter

    Lennon the Bunny - Everything about spaying and neutering your rabbit. March 28, 2019.
     
  13. Oct 11, 2019 #13

    zupper

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    I can see you are very upset and can't tolerate any opinion different than yours
     
  14. Oct 11, 2019 #14

    Preitler

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    PTS in that context is an euphemism for killing, discarding. Without any use, either for easing humans minds or just getting rid of them .

    Butchering, on the other hand, is at least a fulfillment of a human-animal symbiosis. There would be no pet rabbits, or any domesticated rabbits without butchering. There is no breeding of cute breeds without culling out negative traits.

    I think your statement is pretty naive, and far from what caring for animals by humans is all about. It's not about individuals, but about life.

    That said, I'm not prone to encourage people top breed random rabbits just for the cutness factor, or whatever. If you breed, you should be able to handle possible negative results, eating them is a legitmate way. Worst thing, in my opinion, is to just delegate all the possible problems to others.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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  15. Oct 12, 2019 #15

    Augustus&HazelGrace

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    I know I used to breed but I am now against it seeing how many rabbits are in the shelters. That is just for pet breeding. I am ok with breeding for bettering the breed. But after I stopped breeding, I realized it's kind of cruel to breed them. Birthing is painful, and how do we know if they really want babies or not, they can't speak. With humans we verbalize that we want kids and we willing engage in sexual activity and are not forced into it plus we get pain meds for the extremely painful birthing process. I get that rabbits birthing doesn't last that long but still.
     
  16. Oct 12, 2019 #16

    Leo the Lop

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    Giving birth does not hurt animals nearly to the extent that it hurts humans.
     
  17. Oct 12, 2019 #17

    Augustus&HazelGrace

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    Do you have scientific proof? I have never seen that.
     
  18. Oct 12, 2019 #18

    Preitler

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    Humans evolved to just survive giving birth, those giant heads are our achilles heel. It gives us an advantage once out (we rather recently started to outwit that restriction), but it's still a evolutionary knock out criteria. We are pretty much freaks, in that regard. Nature doesn't care about our pain, as long both survive, and what some women told me the pain is just something that is there, but isn't what they think was the essence of the experience.

    Rabbits, on the other hand, evolved for outbreeding whatever nature throws at them. You really do not need to force any rabbit to breed, the bigger problem is to stop them doing it.

    There is no point to anthropomorphize rabbits, to project our ideas of what we think they could feel. Pain is a very subjective experience, rabbits react to it different anyway, and having watched does kindle I don't see the telltale signs of pain then. Hormones can do a great job there.

    Imho, asking for scientific proof to rebute something you project on rabbits is the wrong way round.

    Anyway, that all has little to do that one should only breed rabbits when he got a plan, can handle everything that belongs to it, and doesn't create problems for others. Those things considered it can be a great hobby or homesteading project.
     
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  19. Oct 12, 2019 #19

    Augustus&HazelGrace

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    I have no problem with it if the people doing it are responsible breeders. Not if they are doing it just because they think that the rabbits should experience motherhood. And not all rabbits like being mom's either, I have a rabbit that could care less if the kits were there or not and I have seen others like this. But I never forced her to have any other litters, but I also had one doe that loved being a mom and would lay by her kits all the time. If the breeders are breeding bettering the breed and doing it responsibly and only using does that are willing and showing you that they are wanting to be mom's. I didn't think that I was putting things on them that don't exist, because pain is a very real thing and this is why we now have evolved modern medicine.
     
  20. Oct 12, 2019 #20

    zupper

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    Giving birth is painful for a woman but new babies are born every second do you think it is just because modern medicine still can't clon them? Pain is a part of life process but I think we are slightly off-topic here already and OP just lost interest in this thread long ago.
     

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