Some info I think all breeders should consider

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TinysMom

TinysMom

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Joined
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Location
, Texas, USA
The last 36-48 hours have been stressful for us as a family. I share this information not to point fingers at others...but to warn other breeders so you can make sure you are prepared for what we went through.

On Monday - late afternoon - there was a knock at the door with two animal control officers...they had received a complaint that we had two many rabbits (there was also some other information but they would not tell me who filed the complaint). I let them into my rabbitry and showed them the rabbits. They called in to the main headquarters and said that I probably would have to get rid of the rabbits as there was a city limit and they would be considered "pets". I think I probably shot myself in the foot when I explained that I wasn't breeding anymore.

I explained that I would go in to speak to their supervisor later this week - I had to work the next day.

When I got home from work yesterday afternoon (I'd been home about 10 minutes maybe)....there was another knock at the door. Turns out there was a SECOND complaint about me....that I had rabbits in the garage and they needed to check it out. I laughed - directed them to the garage and then came inside and opened the garage door for them. Mind you - the garage is a horrid mess and there are old rabbit cages out there that need to be cleaned....but I invited them in and said, "Look for the bunnies...anywhere you want...".

We stood and talked for a bit and I was told that the complaints were definitely from someone outside the area...they asked if I knew people from outside the state or across the state, etc. I explained that yes I did...and they agreed that it sounded like it could be some sort of a vendetta. I told them that I would be in this morning to talk to their supervisor.

What they didn't know was that I had called Pipp the night before - and she went looking into the ordinances - she called me back shortly afterwards and said, "It looks like you meet the requirements of a breedery/rabbitry/kennel....so go in and talk to them with proof that you meet the requirements..". I did that today.

If people want to hear more details about it - I'll be glad to share in a future post some of what I had to show them and what the requirements were for my town.

I went in and spoke to the supervisor today and we had a very good talk. I was very respectful of him and did not yell at him or anything like that. I mainly stated that I felt I qualified for this exclusion and I would like to discuss with him my case.

I showed him some of the following things...

  • A letter from ARBA stating my membership date and a recommended minimum cage size for lionheads
  • Copies of the ARBA magazine that go out to members
  • Copies of show reports
  • A trophy we won at a state show for BOSB
  • A ribbon from lionhead nationals
  • The old lionhead guidebook where I wrote an article on the history of lionheads and the lionhead club (back in 2006) - it had my name as the author
  • Copies of pedigrees
  • Information on contacting Gail Gibbons who currently holds the COD for lionheads with ARBA (since they are not yet a recognized breed although they are considered an 'exhibition' breed) - along with the fact that she was an expert witness for rabbit abuse cases for the humane society when she lived in Minnesota - she was willing to speak with them about how many rabbits breeders will often have.
The upshot of all this?

The supervisor replied that he was very impressed with the information I brought in and that it was very OBVIOUS that I was a 'reputable' breeder since I was a member of ARBA and had my pedigrees in order and even had show reports showing my wins, etc.

He understood that I was not breeding because I felt I had enough bunnies and that I was hoping to start showing again this fall but had taken a break for a bit due to high gas prices last year, etc.

Next Wednesday - he is sending the same two guys out to check out the rabbitry again - giving me time to get it in order. Once they approve of it - then he's going to issue me something stating that I am a breeder and excluded from some of the regs. If they don't approve - we'll schedule a revisit (although I'm sure we'll meet their approval).

I explained to him that when you have a large number of rabbits in a small area - and summer hits - they start molting and that a lot of the fur they were seeing was because of that...and he agreed that once the cages were cleaned up more, etc. - that we should not have an issue.

​
So...why are you sharing what must be embarrassing information Peg?

Its simple really - I don't want any other breeders here on this forum to possibly lose their rabbits because of something like this. As I talked to ARBA and others, I'm hearing that things like this are happening all the time.

Even the supervisor told me today that when he spoke to the person/people both times....he sensed that this was a "vendetta" type of thing and that it happens a lot - but he also said that by law he has to check it out anyway.

Here are my recommendations for the breeders reading this:

  • Find out what your city/county/state laws about animals - specifically if you live within city limits
  • Join ARBA asap and also any specialty breed clubs for the breeds you're working on - this way you can show that you have a membership in a professional organization
  • Keep your show reports together - along with trophies, ribbons, etc. (I tend to just toss them aside cause they don't mean much to me...I like to see the other breeders and learn more about my rabbits)
  • Make sure you have pedigrees - even if they're only one or two generations and not fully pedigreed.
Finally....watch what you say - and who you say it to.

In my case - there was some major information that was provided to them that could have ONLY come from this forum and things I've shared. I'm not going into details and I'm not going to debate "could it be this person?" or "could it be that person?". Honestly...it doesn't matter at this point....

In the next post - I'll share our regulations and how I answered them in the discussion....and how I put together my packet...




 
This is the letter I gave the animal control officer when I took my package of things to show him...
[line]
Sec. 5-4. Determination of who is a breeder.
The supervisor of animal control shall have the duty and responsibility of determining who is a breeder and shall note his determination in writing, giving specific reasons for his decision. In making the determination of whether a person is a breeder, the supervisor of animal control shall consider the following criteria:

 (1)Whether the person claiming to be a breeder is registered as a breeder with organizations such as the AmericanKennelClub, UnitedKennelClub, American Bulldog Association, or American Dog Breeders Association.

I have a letter stating I've been a breeder with ARBA (American Rabbit Breeders Association - which is the Rabbit equivilant of the American Dog Breeders Association) since June 3, 2005. I have also provided back issues of magazines that are sent out ONLY to their members.
​
(2)Whether the animals the person is breeding are recognized breeds by one (1) or more of the organizations in subsection (1) above.

Lionheads are in the process of becoming a recognized breed and Gail Gibbons will address that if needed. They are currently being shown as an "exhibition breed" since Gail Gibbons passed the siamese sable lionheads at the last presention. Many shows here in Texas accept all colors of lionheads.

Reference: Gail Gibbons (current COD holder for lionheads) -
When the Gibbons lived in Minnesota, the Humane Society would call her as an "expert witness" in cases involving rabbits. Gail has given permission for you to call her if you want.

(I'm not including Gail's phone number here)
​
(3)Whether the animals the person is breeding are registered with one (1) of the organizations in subsection (1) above.

I am considered "registered" by ARBA because I have a membership and have had it since June 3, 2005. My rabbitry's name (El Rey Lionheads) is also registered with them.
​

(4)The length of time the person claiming to be a breeder has been registered, or his breeds have been registered, with one (1) of the organizations in subsection (1) above.
Per the attached letter from ARBA - this is my 5th year with ARBA.
​
(5)The degree of participation of the person or his animals in breeder organization activities such as dog shows.


Please consider the trophy I am showing from Seguin, TX, the ribbon I am showing from Lionhead Nationals in Ohio and the random show report I am showing from here in Texas.

(6)Whether the animals are being used for illegal activities such as animal fighting.

I currently know of no illegal uses for rabbits - and I do not breed them for meat.
​
(7)The adequacy of the space and facilities for breeding.

Gail Gibbons can address this issue as many many rabbit breeders have a large number of rabbits. As she pointed out to me on the phone - there is one type of show for youth members where they are judged for their knowledge based upon the number of rabbits they have. The categories are (1-10), (11-25), (26-50) and (51 - 100 or more). As she pointed out to me on the phone - if youth breeders often have over 100 rabbits - it should not be surprising that adult breeders can have many rabbits.

In addition, in the letter from ARBA - they state the minimum recommended cage size for lionheads. All of my cages are the recommended minimum size or bigger.
​
(8)Whether the person claiming to be a breeder maintains pedigree records for the animals being bred.

I have brought along 6 sample pedigrees which show some of the breeders I have purchased from - to show that I have invested money in my rabbits and bought quality rabbits.
​
(9)Whether the area in question is properly zoned.

(10)Any other factors the supervisor of animal control deems relevant.

 Any person who presents proof to the supervisor of animal control that he has been continuously registered with one (1) of the organizations in subsection (1) above for the preceding twenty-four (24) months shall be presumed to be a breeder. (Please note that according to the letter from ARBA, I have 49 months with ARBA).

Alternatively, any person who presents proof to the supervisor of animal control that the animals he is breeding have produced in each of the preceding two (2) calendar years at least one (1) animal registered with one (1) of the organizations in subsection (1) above shall be presumed to be a breeder.
(Ord. No. 2005-62, § 2, 10-25-05)
 
Oh Peg, I'm so sorry this has happened and so sorry there is something sad and pathetic enough to do this to you. i'm really glad though, that they were reasonable and listened to what you had to say and that you got it sall sorted out (pending next week's visit).

Stuff like this has also happened on another forum I go on and people get unnecessary visits from RSPCA inspectors.

You know the really sad thing? Whoever it was that made that call has wasted the time of those officers. Hopefully though that hasn't meant that truly neglected animals have suffered because of that person'as ridiculous vendetta. i hope they feel guilt because if they have made neglected animals suffer because of their pettiness, that is inexcusable.
 
Peg, I'm so glad you had all of your things in order to show the supervisor as proof. I'm so sorry you had to go through this. It sounds very scary. I wish you best of luck with the follow up. I'm not a breeder, probably never will be, but this was an interesting read. I'd hate to see bunnies taken away from a good responsible person because of something like this.
 
Wow...that's incredible. ((HUGS)) to you with what you've had to go through.

I'm glad that you were able to show them what you had, and that things got squared away. You've been through so much in the past six months (longer, even), that you didn't need this, too.

We've had a couple of unnecessary visits from Animal Control, too. Once when a past landlord wanted to get personal about things and didn't know anything about the laws about rabbits, and once when they had to be outside during our whole ordeal over the past year...and both times, we "passed" with flying colors. So, I know what it's like to have someone do something like this. (I think you and I might have even talked about the first incident.)

I know you and I have a rough past...but I just want you to know...I do still care, both about you and about the buns...and am happy you're both thriving.

Wow...
 
I was really surprised that it happened (sorta - but not really. I know someone had thought of turning me in before and of course it got back to me).

What shocked me was how kind the supervisor was....how he listened to me (and wasn't bothered by my occasional tearing up...how he understood that there are people who want to be "drama queens" and create problems or use them for vendettas, etc. He said it is unfortunate that when they recognize a caller is doing that - that they still have to go out and make a visit anyway.

The upside of this is a couple of things (besides the new power washer that Art has been having a blast with).

First of all - I now have sort of established a "relationship" of sorts with him. Once that they approve me...I can talk to him about rabbits and be a resource for them to know about if they have rabbits turned in to them.

Secondly - before I left - I asked him to please thank the two gentlemen who visited me. I explained that it must be tough to do a job like this and that if I'd come across rude to them - I apologized...I was just in shock. I also told him that I wanted it noted that the two people who came to see me were VERY polite and VERY kind and they were not harsh or rude in any way. I felt like they were the perfect example of what an animal control inspector should be like and it was obvious that they cared about the animals...but also the person who had the animals.

For a bit there - it looked like they might give me 7 - 10 days to rehome all my rabbits. Instead...it worked out for good.
 
maherwoman wrote:
I know you and I have a rough past...but I just want you to know...I do still care, both about you and about the buns...and am happy you're both thriving.

Wow...
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Thank you Rosie - that means a lot to me - it really does.

I have been in tears a lot - more than I can explain...thinking of what I would do without my rabbits.

As much as I hated this experience - if it can help someone else avoid this situation or avoid losing their rabbits - then I'm glad I shared it.
 
Wow...I can't imagine you having to rehome them all...:(

I did the same thing with the first visit we had (the second one I heard about their visit after the fact...we weren't there when they visited, so I didn't know who to call)...apologizing for my anger/crying, and thanking them for being so professional, letting them know I appreciate WHY they came over, and they understood that it was a personal vendetta in my case, too. I just wanted to let them know they did something good for the community in what they had to do all the time.

It must be hard having their job...I know I could never do it.
 
TinysMom wrote:
maherwoman wrote:
I know you and I have a rough past...but I just want you to know...I do still care, both about you and about the buns...and am happy you're both thriving.

Wow...
Click to expand...
Thank you Rosie - that means a lot to me - it really does.

I have been in tears a lot - more than I can explain...thinking of what I would do without my rabbits.

As much as I hated this experience - if it can help someone else avoid this situation or avoid losing their rabbits - then I'm glad I shared it.
Click to expand...
I absolutely agree...and I think it bears a great lesson for bun owners (especially multiple bun owners)...RESEARCH YOUR CITY/AREA'S CODES on animals, so you can be prepared in case someone does something like this. It's so important.

It's one of the first things I did when we moved here, was check for any regulations on number or space requirements. It appears so far that we're in the clear (as we want somewhere around the same number we had before, which is a lot in some people's eyes).

I have to tell ya, my own experiences scared the poop outta me...and really showed me that I had to be prepared, just in case. You never know when someone will get a crazy idea in their head or will decide to do this very thing for whatever reason they might have. It's always best to be prepared. When someone knows what you love, they might take advantage and try to hit you in the heart.

I'm so happy things turned out well...

And I have to say...Art's having a *blast*? That's too PUNNY! :)

P.S. I meant every word...and will always care. I don't say "I love you" lightly, and when I do, it never goes away...I always continue to care.
 
Wow Peg. That does sound very scary. I am glad to hear that things seem to be progressing so well though. It does kind of make one think about being careful who you talk to or trust online though. That's very frustrating and sad.... I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers, praying for a good outcome on this next inspection.
 
oh gosh Peg I am so sorry that someone has wasted the spca's precious time, and that you had to go through something like this, it is so sad. I am glad that you were able to get it all straightened out and everything is ok.

It is a real shame that someone wasted thier time for a vendetta, the spca's are busy enough with the REAL animals abusers and neglected animals not to have thier time wasted by someones untrue information. Again i am glad that you were able to get through this and get it all straightened out.


And not to jump in here but i was thinking that this could happen to any of us, not just breeders (of course breeders have more rabbits then the normal rabbit owner), but this could happen to anyone of us on here, all because of someone getting mad at us, or not liking us, so sad.

Hugs Peg
 
Wow, Peg. Just... wow. I can't believe it. If it weren't for you, I wouldn't have my beautiful baby girl. You were wonderful enough to meet me halfway, and I remember how much you love her because you cried when you gave her to me.

I'm so sorry you went through all that. Good triumphed!

t.
 
Peg I am so sorry you have had to go through that the thought of someone on here doing that is sickening to me tbh I am very unimpressed :grumpy:

For everyone who reads this This is a very unusual forum there are not very many forums that will accept breeders as well as pet owners. And for many pet owners there is much they can learn from breeders if they want to or take the time to. Things like this really make me understand why the other forums I frequent (one in particular) you MUST be known as a breeder on the show circuit to get into it. Yes its a shame but people who do things like what has happened to you make breedersfeel that way.



I am so glad you are ok as are your rabbits. *hugs* to you Peg and Kudos for the way you have handled it in particular telling the forum about it. Certaily shows who the bigger person is in the situation :D

(My friend had the SSPCA put onto him at xmas as he was away and had people looking after his rabbits Bruce and I included. Bruce was there for the inspection and the woman who did the check was so impressed with the set up and teh state of the rabbits which I admit we found reassuring as our set up is almost identical but its still a horrible thought and process to go through)


 
Flashy wrote:
You know the really sad thing? Whoever it was that made that call has wasted the time of those officers. Hopefully though that hasn't meant that truly neglected animals have suffered because of that person'as ridiculous vendetta. i hope they feel guilt because if they have made neglected animals suffer because of their pettiness, that is inexcusable.
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Dittos what Flashy said.

I truly am sickened that someone on this forum would be so vindictive as to sic the authorities on you because of God knows what reason(s).
I've been on numerous forums (not just rabbits) and Peg is by far one of the best mods I've seen.
I think you handled the whole situation with grace and maturity (even though you were obviously shaken on the inside:().
Considering the incidents you've gone through in the last few months, I feel so awful that you would have to go through this.

.../hugs to you Peg
I'm sure the next inspection will go off without a hitch.
 
TinysMom Your so sweet hearted how could anyone do such an awful thing to you? Everyone knows you are one of the most responsible person on the forum when it comes to there bunnies! God this really is a joke:X.
 
I am glad things are going to turn of well. I agree that you have handled this well and that you took the high road. I am also happy the SPCA supervisor recognized it for what it is/was, a vendetta.

It mad me really mad to think someone from the forum would do this. People shouldn't have to "sanitize" or "guard" what they say on here, for fear that someone will use it against them.

Thank you for posting what happened.
 
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