Reoccurring cecal dysbiosis

[jessedw123]

Hi, guys. I am new here and just looking to see if any new information can be provided. I post around to a lot of different rabbit groups but this seems to be a topic that not many touch on deeply.


My 3 year old rabbit, male, thuringer, has on and off cecal dysbiosis. He's on hay and water only, and has been since the beginning of December last year, so almost 2 months. He was put on it because he was having slowed digestion and we weren't sure why, so did that to be safe, and then the vet told us to stay on that diet since we weren't sure what was causing it. He was doing okay, up until last week. He started having cecal dvsbiosis again, but it would resolve in about a day. This happened 3 times last week, then he had a good 2 days. I thought we were in the clear, until this morning, he had it again in a very mushy form. I was actually worried he had diarrhea since it looked different than what it usually is, but it definitely looks like mushy cecotropes. His box was cleaned late last night, almost at midnight, and is full of healthy poops.

I called the vet and they said they'd put me on the vet's work list so I am waiting for a call from the vet. I'm just worried about what is causing it. He's had no major changes to his diet, the only thing was last week, Monday, so 9 days ago, he had about 5 or 6 pellets. I regretted it after I did it, but it was after I had vacuumed in his room and he was very upset and I wanted to offer him some food to make sure he wasn't too afraid to eat. I assumed the soft cecotropes after that was a response to the pellets, but now it's been over a week. Could he still be reacting to that? Why would it go away and come back if that's the case? He's also shedding currently. He had a few stringy poops with hair in there and he's also very cranky about shedding. Could the stress of shedding cause it? Could the hair he's ingesting cause it? I just was really hoping he wouldve gotten through this episode by now and am so worried about my baby. Is chronic cecal dysbiosis a thing?

 

[JBun]

Just hay, no veggies, supplements, meds, or other foods? What kind of hay do you feed and is it good quality with no signs of mold (damp /wet, white or black spots, white dust, sour or musty smell) or weeds?

Has he had a blood test to check liver function? Or an ultrasound or xrays of the abdomen? Also heart checked?

 

[jessedw123]

Just hay, no veggies, supplements, meds, or other foods? What kind of hay do you feed and is it good quality with no signs of mold (damp /wet, white or black spots, white dust, sour or musty smell) or weeds?

Has he had a blood test to check liver function? Or an ultrasound or xrays of the abdomen? Also heart checked?

Yes, just hay and water. He gets Oxbow timothy hay. I always watch what it looks like when I give it to him, and haven't noticed anything abnormal. He loves his hay.

He hasn't had any of that done, no tests. When he went to the vet, she just did a physical exam and looked at pictures I had of his liquid cecotropes he occasionally had. He behaves completely normal other than the occasional liquid cecotropes and now the mushy cecotropes.

It's nighttime now and he's fine. He hasn't had anymore weird cecotropes and he's been going to the bathroom fine. The vet on the phone said she thinks it could have started as a reaction to the pellets but is now lingering, maybe due to stress from shedding, since he gets very irritable while shedding. She just said to keep monitoring him and watch for changes and update her.

 

[JBun]

Aside from the latest bad cecal, do the cecotropes seem to be gradually improving since being on hay only? Like were they more liquid and now generally forming up more? Or is there no consistent improvement in their quality?

Is he maintaining a good weight and seeming healthy and active otherwise?

I wouldn't think a pinch of pellets more than a week ago, would have this delayed of an affect. I would expect problems in the first couple days following giving it, if it was going to cause a problem.

Shedding could possibly cause issues if things start getting backed up then suddenly let loose again, but you would start to see the fecal balls getting smaller in size and less quantity if a gut slowdown was occurring.

If he had severe cecal dysbiosis, it can sometimes take time for it to go away even once on the right diet, provided no other health issue is contributing or is the primary cause. But I would expect a gradual steady improvement once put on the right diet, even if it is a very slow improvement. If the cecals are consistently worsening on a good quality hay diet, then I'd start suspecting there might be something more going on and not just a dietary issue.

Is the timothy a good green hay? Also, does it seem to be a very soft leafy hay, a mix of leaf and hard stems, or mostly hard rough stems? Have you ever tried other types or cuts (first, second, etc) of grass hay?

 

[jessedw123]

Aside from the latest bad cecal, do the cecotropes seem to be gradually improving since being on hay only? Like were they more liquid and now generally forming up more? Or is there no consistent improvement in their quality?

Is he maintaining a good weight and seeming healthy and active otherwise?

I wouldn't think a pinch of pellets more than a week ago, would have this delayed of an affect. I would expect problems in the first couple days following giving it, if it was going to cause a problem.

Shedding could possibly cause issues if things start getting backed up then suddenly let loose again, but you would start to see the fecal balls getting smaller in size and less quantity if a gut slowdown was occurring.

If he had severe cecal dysbiosis, it can sometimes take time for it to go away even once on the right diet, provided no other health issue is contributing or is the primary cause. But I would expect a gradual steady improvement once put on the right diet, even if it is a very slow improvement. If the cecals are consistently worsening on a good quality hay diet, then I'd start suspecting there might be something more going on and not just a dietary issue.

Is the timothy a good green hay? Also, does it seem to be a very soft leafy hay, a mix of leaf and hard stems, or mostly hard rough stems? Have you ever tried other types or cuts (first, second, etc) of grass hay?

They started off exclusively as liquid. Then yesterday it was more solid, which alarmed me since the liquid ones were his "regular" bad ones. I think he has truly normal ones during these bouts too, because he will only have a one or two of the bad ones and then I see no evidence of it for a few days. They leave a mark on his fleece so I can tell if he's having them even if I am not there to witness it. But yesterday's was definitely more solid and had some resemblance of a squished regular poop but stunk like the cecotrope and was mushy.

He's been fine weight wise and does act pretty much entirely normal. He's been occasionally cranky but it seems to be about shedding.

He had issues the day after the pellets, then it came and went, came and went, came and went, came and went... The vet said it hypothetically could've thrown his body out of whack and the initial response was to the pellets but now it's lingering for some reason. I wonder if it was a trigger for an episode.

He's had some smaller poops, but very few among his normal ones. He's had a few stringy ones too where you can see his fur in there. They're pretty infrequent but they coincide with the bout of cecotrope issues he's having.

The cecals haven't got any worse, I don't think, unless you mean more consistent. But it's just been this past week they've been consistently bad, and it seems that the mushy one yesterday might be an improvement since it was more solid?

The timothy always looks very good, which is why we stuck with Oxbow. Sometimes it has a few little frail ones or a few hard stem-looking ones, but the majority of it always has looked like a mix. We tried 2 different brands and both changed his poop dramatically. He was slowing down, lots of hard little poops and they were always very very dark in color, sometimes even moist or sticky feeling, without him peeing on them to cause that. On Oxbow they're occasionally small, but mainly regular-large sized and a lighter brown/golden and very crumbly inside.

I haven't seen his box yet today and I am scared to see if he's had any issues overnight but will also update that here.

 

[JBun]

I ask about the hay because sometimes grass hay that's a third cutting and very soft green and leafy, can be too rich of a hay for some rabbits, leading to poop issues. But it sounds like what you're feeding is working well for your rabbit. Oxbow usually tends to be a second cut, but not always, so I thought I would check to make sure that wasn't a contributing factor. Second cut is usually a mix of leaf and stem, which I've found works best for my rabbits as well.

With there being an initial and reoccurring reaction to the pellets, it does seem possible it's linked then. I had one rabbit that would react to just a small amount of pellets as well, though his reaction mostly caused GI stasis symptoms and affected the quality of his fecal droppings. So he had to be on a hay and select greens diet permanently, and did well on it.

To me, your rabbits cecals going from watery to pasty would be an improvement. If it was the opposite, that would be more concerning to me. I would watch for and expect to see, a continued gradual improvement following the pellet set back. If it's not improving or is getting worse, then I'd definitely want my vet looking into it. But if you're still feeling concerned with his current state even with improvement, the only way to try and figure out if anything else is going on, would be the vet doing some tests.

Intestinal parasites can cause poop issues, though usually it's the fecal poop that's affected. Liver problems can sometimes cause changes in poop, though you'll usually see other symptoms as well. Heart issues. I had a rabbit with thymoma and heart issues, that had watery cecals, but he also had several other associated health issues that clearly indicated more was going on and not just a dietary issue. Then there can be problems with the normal function of the cecum.

Usually when it's not just a microflora imbalance due to diet or a dietary sensitivity, but there's an underlying health issue causing the watery cecals, there will be other symptoms going on as well. At least that's been my experience. So if there is something else causing this, a blood test, fecal float test, ultrasound, and xrays may help determine this. But sometimes the testing can be inconclusive, and could still leave you with no definitive diagnosis.

If I was seeing steady improvement in the cecals with the diet changes, and continued good health and behavior, I'd be inclined to just continue with the diet and monitoring. But if I started seeing unhealthy weight loss, a decline in health and/or behavior, and/or signs of other health issues occurring, I'd want to have further testing done.

 

[jessedw123]

I ask about the hay because sometimes grass hay that's a third cutting and very soft green and leafy, can be too rich of a hay for some rabbits, leading to poop issues. But it sounds like what you're feeding is working well for your rabbit. Oxbow usually tends to be a second cut, but not always, so I thought I would check to make sure that wasn't a contributing factor. Second cut is usually a mix of leaf and stem, which I've found works best for my rabbits as well.

With there being an initial and reoccurring reaction to the pellets, it does seem possible it's linked then. I had one rabbit that would react to just a small amount of pellets as well, though his reaction mostly caused GI stasis symptoms and affected the quality of his fecal droppings. So he had to be on a hay and select greens diet permanently, and did well on it.

To me, your rabbits cecals going from watery to pasty would be an improvement. If it was the opposite, that would be more concerning to me. I would watch for and expect to see, a continued gradual improvement following the pellet set back. If it's not improving or is getting worse, then I'd definitely want my vet looking into it. But if you're still feeling concerned with his current state even with improvement, the only way to try and figure out if anything else is going on, would be the vet doing some tests.

Intestinal parasites can cause poop issues, though usually it's the fecal poop that's affected. Liver problems can sometimes cause changes in poop, though you'll usually see other symptoms as well. Heart issues. I had a rabbit with thymoma and heart issues, that had watery cecals, but he also had several other associated health issues that clearly indicated more was going on and not just a dietary issue. Then there can be problems with the normal function of the cecum.

Usually when it's not just a microflora imbalance due to diet or a dietary sensitivity, but there's an underlying health issue causing the watery cecals, there will be other symptoms going on as well. At least that's been my experience. So if there is something else causing this, a blood test, fecal float test, ultrasound, and xrays may help determine this. But sometimes the testing can be inconclusive, and could still leave you with no definitive diagnosis.

If I was seeing steady improvement in the cecals with the diet changes, and continued good health and behavior, I'd be inclined to just continue with the diet and monitoring. But if I started seeing unhealthy weight loss, a decline in health and/or behavior, and/or signs of other health issues occurring, I'd want to have further testing done.

That's pretty much exactly what the vet said! I think the cecotropes got better with that mushy stage, too. It was more solid. His poops looked great today and there was no evidence of weird cecotropes. I suspect most of his cecotropes are fine too, because it'll only be one or two visibly strange ones but he leans back by his butt frequently and eats something, so I think he has good ones coming out alongside these bad ones. It's just so stressful to monitor and not know a cause or if it'll randomly change to something more severe.

 

[jeff38002]

Have you ruled out their drinking water being a problem?

 

[jessedw123]

Have you ruled out their drinking water being a problem?

I'm not sure why it would be. He drinks his water regularly. It is just tap water. Are there types that are known to cause issues?

 

[jeff38002]

I'm just trying to think outside the box, so to speak, but tap water can be "altered" for many reasons - typically due to safety concerns with the water supply, when they have to shock it back for potable safety. Perhaps your bun is reacting to whatever chemicals (or a stronger concentration of chemicals) that might have been added? Water test kits are pretty cheap online, but please do your due diligence in regards to whether or not other people find the kit reliable, as some test kits seem to be not much more than scams. Perhaps an easier way would be switching over to bottled water. Spring water for example, might be worth trying. Other than taste differences, you shouldn't need to worry about adding any new things to the bun's gut biome from just changing it's water (assuming THAT water would be clear of contaminants), and it'd be pretty cheap if you buy it by the gallon at a big box store (Walmart or Target for example). Good luck in finding out how to make your bun feel better.

 

[jessedw123]

I ask about the hay because sometimes grass hay that's a third cutting and very soft green and leafy, can be too rich of a hay for some rabbits, leading to poop issues. But it sounds like what you're feeding is working well for your rabbit. Oxbow usually tends to be a second cut, but not always, so I thought I would check to make sure that wasn't a contributing factor. Second cut is usually a mix of leaf and stem, which I've found works best for my rabbits as well.

With there being an initial and reoccurring reaction to the pellets, it does seem possible it's linked then. I had one rabbit that would react to just a small amount of pellets as well, though his reaction mostly caused GI stasis symptoms and affected the quality of his fecal droppings. So he had to be on a hay and select greens diet permanently, and did well on it.

To me, your rabbits cecals going from watery to pasty would be an improvement. If it was the opposite, that would be more concerning to me. I would watch for and expect to see, a continued gradual improvement following the pellet set back. If it's not improving or is getting worse, then I'd definitely want my vet looking into it. But if you're still feeling concerned with his current state even with improvement, the only way to try and figure out if anything else is going on, would be the vet doing some tests.

Intestinal parasites can cause poop issues, though usually it's the fecal poop that's affected. Liver problems can sometimes cause changes in poop, though you'll usually see other symptoms as well. Heart issues. I had a rabbit with thymoma and heart issues, that had watery cecals, but he also had several other associated health issues that clearly indicated more was going on and not just a dietary issue. Then there can be problems with the normal function of the cecum.

Usually when it's not just a microflora imbalance due to diet or a dietary sensitivity, but there's an underlying health issue causing the watery cecals, there will be other symptoms going on as well. At least that's been my experience. So if there is something else causing this, a blood test, fecal float test, ultrasound, and xrays may help determine this. But sometimes the testing can be inconclusive, and could still leave you with no definitive diagnosis.

If I was seeing steady improvement in the cecals with the diet changes, and continued good health and behavior, I'd be inclined to just continue with the diet and monitoring. But if I started seeing unhealthy weight loss, a decline in health and/or behavior, and/or signs of other health issues occurring, I'd want to have further testing done.

So, his cecals have seemed fine for 2 days now but his poops seem smaller. They're a good shape, golden colored and good consistency but I'm seeing a lot more of the smaller ones which used to be more like one offs, where there were only a few here and there. It's still mainly medium sized ones that are more normal for him, but the smaller ones have definitely increased.

 

[JBun]

Have you ruled out their drinking water being a problem?

I'm not sure why it would be. He drinks his water regularly. It is just tap water. Are there types that are known to cause issues?

I have read of a few rare instances where some peoples rabbits were having enteritis/poop issues and the owner discovered it was due to contaminated/bad water. This seemed to be more the case when they had well water. It's pretty unusual for this to be the cause of mushy cecotropes, but of course, not entirely impossible.

So, his cecals have seemed fine for 2 days now but his poops seem smaller. They're a good shape, golden colored and good consistency but I'm seeing a lot more of the smaller ones which used to be more like one offs, where there were only a few here and there. It's still mainly medium sized ones that are more normal for him, but the smaller ones have definitely increased.

With him shedding, that's the likely cause of a few smaller fecal poops. But definitely keep an eye on it. If it's becoming smaller more consistently and decreasing in amount, you may need to talk to your vet about trying a gut stimulant before full GI stasis sets in. Though the meds may further disrupt the cecotropes, so just something to be aware of.

 

[jessedw123]

I have read of a few rare instances where some peoples rabbits were having enteritis/poop issues and the owner discovered it was due to contaminated/bad water. This seemed to be more the case when they had well water. It's pretty unusual for this to be the cause of mushy cecotropes, but of course, not entirely impossible.



With him shedding, that's the likely cause of a few smaller fecal poops. But definitely keep an eye on it. If it's becoming smaller more consistently and decreasing in amount, you may need to talk to your vet about trying a gut stimulant before full GI stasis sets in. Though the meds may further disrupt the cecotropes, so just something to be aware of.

Just to show what I am working with here, the first picture was before I left for work and then the second was after my 4 1/2 hour shift. Hes definitely going and most look normal. There's still a range, though. In the third picture, that's 3 different extremes within the last 24 hours that he's had. About 95% look like the middle one, and all have had good texture to them, but there were maybe 10 - 15 individual ones looking on the smaller side, like that 3rd poop. Though, that one is the smallest I've seen so those other ones were a little bit bigger than that one. The first one is a bit bigger than the majority of them and is what his poops have tended to look like when he's not having these digestive problems.

 

[JBun]

There will often be a few small ones when shedding, which can be normal. The problem signs I look for is the amount increasing and signs of appetite starting to be affected noticeably, along with changes in behavior and abnormal lethargy. This signals to me that digestion may be slowing down excessively and risking stasis. As long as there are very few small ones, and most medium to large, I wouldn't be concerned yet, unless appetite and behavior had also significantly changed. But do contact your vet if you're at all concerned.

 

[Georgia_gogo]

Yes, just hay and water. He gets Oxbow timothy hay. I always watch what it looks like when I give it to him, and haven't noticed anything abnormal. He loves his hay.

He hasn't had any of that done, no tests. When he went to the vet, she just did a physical exam and looked at pictures I had of his liquid cecotropes he occasionally had. He behaves completely normal other than the occasional liquid cecotropes and now the mushy cecotropes.

It's nighttime now and he's fine. He hasn't had anymore weird cecotropes and he's been going to the bathroom fine. The vet on the phone said she thinks it could have started as a reaction to the pellets but is now lingering, maybe due to stress from shedding, since he gets very irritable while shedding. She just said to keep monitoring him and watch for changes and update her.

Is this vet expertised to bunnies? My guess is, no so better you rush the bunny to another vet, find an expert to bunnies, one!! Bunnies are different animals than cats and dogs and usually a normal vet can’t diagnose a bunny!! That diet doesn’t seem good for so long period (2 months?!) he needs nutrients, minerals, vitamins etc.. if something is wrong with him he has to do blood tests, xrays, anything else, as JBun said too, so to find out what’s wrong with him and help him. These tests should be done by an expert exotic animals vet, so Search where you can find one and go there asap… Maybe is something that can be treatable or maybe its something serious and here we all can give you some advice, only an expert vet can find the solution and treatment to make your bunny healthy again…

Hi, guys. I am new here and just looking to see if any new information can be provided. I post around to a lot of different rabbit groups but this seems to be a topic that not many touch on deeply.


My 3 year old rabbit, male, thuringer, has on and off cecal dysbiosis. He's on hay and water only, and has been since the beginning of December last year, so almost 2 months. He was put on it because he was having slowed digestion and we weren't sure why, so did that to be safe, and then the vet told us to stay on that diet since we weren't sure what was causing it. He was doing okay, up until last week. He started having cecal dvsbiosis again, but it would resolve in about a day. This happened 3 times last week, then he had a good 2 days. I thought we were in the clear, until this morning, he had it again in a very mushy form. I was actually worried he had diarrhea since it looked different than what it usually is, but it definitely looks like mushy cecotropes. His box was cleaned late last night, almost at midnight, and is full of healthy poops.

I called the vet and they said they'd put me on the vet's work list so I am waiting for a call from the vet. I'm just worried about what is causing it. He's had no major changes to his diet, the only thing was last week, Monday, so 9 days ago, he had about 5 or 6 pellets. I regretted it after I did it, but it was after I had vacuumed in his room and he was very upset and I wanted to offer him some food to make sure he wasn't too afraid to eat. I assumed the soft cecotropes after that was a response to the pellets, but now it's been over a week. Could he still be reacting to that? Why would it go away and come back if that's the case? He's also shedding currently. He had a few stringy poops with hair in there and he's also very cranky about shedding. Could the stress of shedding cause it? Could the hair he's ingesting cause it? I just was really hoping he wouldve gotten through this episode by now and am so worried about my baby. Is chronic cecal dysbiosis a thing?

 

[Georgia_gogo]

Is this vet expertised to bunnies? My guess is, no so better you rush the bunny to another vet, find an expert to bunnies, one!! Bunnies are different animals than cats and dogs and usually a normal vet can’t diagnose a bunny!! That diet doesn’t seem good for so long period (2 months?!) he needs nutrients, minerals, vitamins etc.. if something is wrong with him he has to do blood tests, xrays, anything else, as JBun said too, so to find out what’s wrong with him and help him. These tests should be done by an expert exotic animals vet, so Search where you can find one and go there asap… Maybe is something that can be treatable or maybe its something serious and here we all can give you some advice, only an expert vet can find the solution and treatment to make your bunny healthy again…

How is the bunny now?