lucky bun

[Buck Jones]

Lissa wrote:

I'm going to stop now.

Honest and forthwith discussion on a sensitive topic, withouthistronics or rancor, can lead to productive discourse in which we alllearn a little bit more. May not change any minds, but opensthem up just a crack more.

Buck

 

[dreamgal042]

*scratch head* i couldnt get past all those big words =\

 

[gjsara]

i was and am not trying to anger anyone i wasexpressing my opinion so for that i will not apoligize . i cannotassume anything ,that is why when i said things they were in questionform. i am done now and i have said what i felt was nessasary.

i will apoligize tho if i upset anyone i wasnt trying to personaly attack anyone, just prove my point

sara

 

[m.e.]

animals arent like humans the dont holdthe ability to reason they only grasp breeding and eating that is whatdrives .them so that their species can survive.

Um....okay. :?

You know, there's scientific evidence that contradicts that statement.Animals are sentient. They have emotions - maybe not as complex asours, but they do have them. They have intelligence and independantthought. There's a book called When Elephants Weep by J.Moussaieff Masson that is absolutely fascinating and well researched.You should know the facts before you spout an opinion. But that's justmy opinion...

~M

 

[gjsara]

m.e. wrote:

animals arent like humans the dont hold the abilityto reason they only grasp breeding and eating that is what drives .themso that their species can survive.

Um....okay. :?

You know, there's scientific evidence that contradicts that statement.Animals are sentient. They have emotions - maybe not as complex asours, but they do have them. They have intelligence and independantthought. There's a book called When Elephants Weep by J.Moussaieff Masson that is absolutely fascinating and well researched.You should know the facts before you spout an opinion. But that's justmy opinion...

~M

and to that i will only add this an animal is only as smart as the sizeof its brain with the exception of elephant , whales, dolphins, andapes . animals are not self aware they do not understand they reallyexsist, its hard to explain but i do know what i am talking about i ama physcholigy major and i hve a 4.0 added to the fact i have notpersonaly attacked any of you and you are lashing out at me so howabout we just stop k

 

[m.e.]

Hey, that's cool. Not trying to lash out at anyone.

In truth, though, while impressive that you are a Psych student with a4.0 (I'm jealous!), this only means that you are learned in the humanmind, not the animals. Relative brain size has little to do withintelligence, and while I know not all animals are self-aware (someare!), this also has little to do with intelligence. Just saying, isall...I've done my research too.

~M

 

[Buck Jones]

Interesting little read...try The Souls ofAnimals by Gary Kwalski, Stillpoint Publishing, Walpole, NH, 1991,ISBN 0-913299-84-7. May give many some food for thought.



Buck

 

[Carolyn]

Buck Jones wrote:

Lissa wrote:

I'm going to stop now.?

Honest and forthwith discussion on a sensitive topic, withouthistronics or rancor, can lead to productive discourse in which we alllearn a little bit more.? May not change any minds, but opens them upjust a crack more.

Buck

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

So true that different opinions shared can make for an interestingdiscussion. That said, the tides were turning in this thread.

I don't wish to shut down the discussion at hand as long as it stays as a discussion.

I encourage people to make their points and know that it can be donewithout being sarcastic or nasty to another for they're having adifferent belief.

People should be able to state how they feel without being called stupid: directly or indirectly.

-Carolyn

 

[Buck Jones]

dreamgal042 wrote:

*scratch head* i couldnt get past all those big words =

"Stretch," it's good for you! Try dictionary for meanings. They are not terribly difficult words.*chuckle*

Buck

 

[gjsara]

i understand where you are coming from but inorder for us to learn about the human mind we havestudied animals i am not saying animals are not intelligent but mostlack the comprehensive skill to gain knowledge because language is thekey to knowledge , if you think about it when a human child is littlethey lack the ability to think comprehensively due to their shortage inknowledge but as we grow older we are able to better formulate ourthoughts and express them through language, could you have a thoughwith out language??

sara

 

[Buck Jones]

Some animals demonstrate the ability to "speak"to us and most have their own languages. Some apes, parrots,crows that I have read about havedemonstrated, to me atleast, that they have the ability to "converse" withus. Other animals, like whales, porpoise, apes, chimps,monkys, elephants, certainly have their "own" languages, some of whichwe are beginning to learn.



Buck

 

[gjsara]

again i have not been trying to upset anyoneand icertinly wasnt trying to hurt anyones feelings . i agree with you bucki find you last statment compleatly true.

and carolyn i apoligize if you are refuring to me its just sometimes iread something and it makes me angry so i feel i need to post myopinion .

 

[Carolyn]

The book When Elephants Weep was an incredible read.

There's a lot to be said for body language.

Not saying they rationalize in the same way, but I feel that a lot morestudies could be done on it. The feelings of happiness, depression,joy, fear, love, sympathy, and anger are universal feelings of allanimals, including human beings.

The other study done of elephants, that I'm sure you're all aware of,is the one that determined that one herd could communicate with anotherherd miles away through a tone so low that we can't hear it. It travelsthrough the earth and other the elephants can hear it and they respond.

-Carolyn

 

[MyBabyBunnies]

Rabbits may not be able to speak our language,but they speak their own language quite well. Rabbits can communicatequite well with their own species so to say they lack the knowledge tospeak is not entirely true. They speak with their body. Just because ananimal cannot speak our language, does not mean it's not smart anddoesn't know more than we think. Think about it, we speak only ourlanguage, we can communicate with people of different languages (if weare not familiar with that language)with body language but wefind it extremely hard to do so, animals can communicate with anyspecies with their language! So to say that animals are not able tocomprehend things is not right, after all, it is human kind that doesnot understandthe rabbits language. I don't mean to soundrude, but because we are not proficient in other species language doesnot mean they are "dumb animals". I'm a firm believer that all animalshave emotions, can feel pain, and understand that they exist. You maynot notice that someone's body language is pointing towards threateningbut an animal would pick that up right away. We as humans are soabsorbed in our world of verbal communication that we are not able tocomprehend that other species may be able to communicate in other waysjust as well if not better.

That's my thought, sorry if it sounded rude at all.



Just to add my favorite quote:

"If animals are dumb, then why are we the ones working our butts off to feed and care for them?"

 

[Carolyn]

gjsara,

I wasn't referring to any one person. Just poppin in a reminder.

No worries, Dear Heart. I know where you're coming from and I feel that you've made some very valuable points.

I also understand what m.e. is saying as well as HankHanky, AnnaS, Bunny_Mad, and Lissa.

It's all good.

I'm passionate about how I feel about certain subjects too.

-Carolyn

 

[gjsara]

*sighs of relief* thank you, and i will have to pic up the book about elephants!

 

[Carolyn]

You'll love the book, Sara.

At one point, they talk about how one of the elephants die in the herdthey were observing. The men went in an whisked the dead body of theelephant away and buried it. The elephants cried and cried.

Finally, man dug the body of the dead elephant back up and presented itto the elephants. Each member of the herd went up to their passed awayfamily member and cried and stroked it with their trunks. After eachelephant had a chance to say good-bye, they buried the body again andthe herd moved on.

-Carolyn

 

[gjsara]

it is truly amazing the things that go on allcreatures are amazing it is very sad that alot of people in todayssoceity dont understand the importance of them and have no want or needto preserve this precious world for our children and grandchildren ect.but i guess im a moden day hippie lol. tho i do believe that should bechanged to hmmmm .... well the term should be changed any sugestions?

sara

 

[Carolyn]

*laughs*

You're right! The term "hippie" is dated. I'm surprised one of the generations hasn't upgraded it yet.

I found out that it's not cool to say cool anymore. :shock: That was a harsh awakening.

-Carolyn

 

[gjsara]

lol yea we need to come up for a modern day wordfor sure. my brother and i were having this convo a while ago and isaid"omg we are modern day hippies" we both laugh for a long time!