I think Cookie may have a UTI

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pappy1264

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Some of you may remember last August, I lost my beloved Carrot to GI Stasis, most likely brought on by an unditected UTI. I have had Cookie since Sept. He was born July 4, 2009. He is a lionhead mix, around 3 lbs. He is not yet neutered, but will be soon. I already have an appt. for tomorrow (vet not in today), but here is what I am seeing. He is on BlueSeal Show Hutch Deluxe (per his breeder). He get about a cup of mixed greens a day, and maybe once or twice a week, a very small amount of shaved carrots. I have noticed in the last week or so he has not touched any hay and now the last few days has not touched his pellets either. He still will eat the greens (although have not given any carrots). He seems to be drinking more water and today he keeps chewing around his testical area (I have not seen any tooth grinding, but more of a 'licking his lips' kind of thing.) I have amoxycillanI picked up yesterday (for a sugar glider in case I ran out as one is on it). Do you think I should start that? Should I try to get some metacam? I know I am seeing her tomorrow, but after Carrot, I am so scared! Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! (I am going to change his litter box so I can see how much he is going, although I use yesterdays news, so that may be hard to tell on the urine.) I know they can crash so fast (that is what happened with Carrot). Will we be ok until tomorrow????
 
I just felt his tummy, it does not feel hard to me (just wanted to double check that.....) Do these symptoms sound consistent with a UTI? The biggest thing I noticed is his not touching any hay and now also his pellets (he usually eats those first before his greens!)
 
Ok, I just took his litter box out to check it and the poop on the top has white, chalkyness on some of them, so I am assuming I am right with a kidney issue of some kind. I'm going to call the vets again and see if they think I should start the amoxy or what to do. I am so afraid this could turn like Carrot (I missed him having a UTI). Now, are UTI's common in rabbits?
 
Ok, just got off the phone, they are going to squeeze us in today. I know he is having something kidney related and I don't want this to get any worse. I learned a very hard lesson with Carrot and he paid for my ignorance. I will update later...thanks!
 
Hope to hear how he is .

In the future alway keep simethicone (for gas) and benebac (to reestablish gut flora) in the rabbit medicine cabinet.
Pedialyte and canned pumpkin also

Even if it is a URI ( don't know :?)

the lack of appetitemay be brought on bythe physical problem and the beginning anorexia and stasis can be treated at home prior to going to the vet.
Chalkiness on top of poops sounds normal to me unless it is sludgey

With a rabbit much of the needed treatment can be provided in the home environment to stabilize the rabbit even if a vet appt is necessary


let us know how he is


bestto Change your veggies to green veggies (parsley, cilantro, romaine , kaleetc). ..carrot shavings dailyare too high in sugar although you can give a very small amount daily
 
I am going in at 3:30. He most likely has a UTI (white chalk on poop), urine looks darker, smells more, he is chewing at his bottom and now is grinding teeth and tried to eat the stuff in his litter box (it has a grate, but I took it out and put paper towels down to check for blood).

Are kidney issues common in rabbits? I never had an issue with others, but first Carrot, now Cookie (they got different pellets, but both got hay, greens and carrots). Could the carrots be the culprit?

I will post when we get home. Would go sooner, but hubby has my truck and have no way to get there sooner.....keep good thoughts for him.



Thanks,

Mary
 
Thanks, I don't give them daily, usually just once, maybe twice a week, and it is about a tablespoons worth. I give spring mix for greens.

I will get those things (the drops for babies, right?) Thank you! I did feel his tummy, it is not hard. I know this could also be furballs, as he is a lion mix. I know he has stomach upset, that much I can tell. I just thought UTI as he is chewing at his bottom, so thought it was irratated (although it is not wet or anything).
 
If Cookie and Carrot are related there could be a genetic component. I am not sure whether too much sugar could contribute to a URI in rabbits .. itis a component in why some humans get bladder infections


he is very young to have serious kidney issues..

poor little guy sounds very uncomfortable .

 
Sometimes the water can have excess calcium in it, although most new information points to genetics and vitamin D as the causes of urinary stones/sludge, instead of dietary calcium intake. Unfiltered sunlight can help with vitamin D (which affects how the body deals with calcium), and many pelleted foods have added vitamin D. It could be due to the pellets, if both of the pellet brands are bad.

However, an infection of the bladder/urinary tract isn't caused by food, genetics, or anything else. It's just an infection, like people get urinary infections sometimes. It's possible that the bedding in the litterbox is contributing if it's dirty, but honestly I think urinary infections are just "(un)luck of the draw". Certainly bunnies with calcium issues in the urinary tract (stones, sludge) may be more prone to urinary tract infection, but UTIs usually just happen spontaneously, it seems.
 
Ok, we just got back. He started him on motility drugs and critical care to try to get him back to eating. His exam was for the most part unremarkable. He wants to give the motility drugs a chance to work and go from there. On the way home, I stopped and got some fresh hay. I put some in and he ate it, so that is good! He said if he isn't doing better in a few days, he will try to get a urine sample and maybe do an xray (although palpatation of his belly did not indicate bloating). I will also be picking up benebac. Do you think I should give him the simethicone drops, too? He also did not want to give him metacam, because if it is a kidney issue, he didn't want to compromise him more. Does that sound right? I just gave him the motility drugs (he is to get it 2x a day for three days, it is reglan)and he wants me to give him 20 mg. of the critical care 3x a day until he is eating on his own.
 
Oh, Cookie and Carrot are not related. But Cookie weighs exactly the same today as Carrot did the day he passed....sigh, 3.3lbs.
 
The folks on this forum are generally not a big fan of Reglan which is a gut stimulant. We usually believe that by hydrating the rabbit well with sub q fluids and/ or oral fluids( like Pedialyte ) that the same results can be obtained without the a strong contractions created by a gut stimulant. It is unusual for a vet to prescribe a drug like Reglan without first taking a GI x-ray to rule out the possiblity of an obstruction.

It sounds like the vet doesn't know for sure what is going on.:?

If you are going to go ahead and give it make sure that bun is well hydrated. hydration is more important than food at least initially.

After rereading your first post I realize that the pickiness with food has been going on for awhile so your bun probably is in stasis.

Another possiblity is that he has a dental issues. Dental issues can only really be identified if the bun is sedated. using a scope to examine the teeth is virtally useless. You may want your vet to thoroughly examine the teeth next visit.

I would suggest using simethicone if your bun doesn't start pooping soon or has a hard gasy belly or is pushing his belly against the ground or looks uncomfortable. you can give 1 cc of plain simethicone ( infant gas drops) in 3 separate doses on an hourly basis,

As far as my experience it will not interfere with reglan( if you give it)

start pushing fluids like pedialyte, get a fresh pineapple and squeeze the juice and give a few ccs of pineapple juice several times per day. /

you may also want to get a can of pure canned pumpkin as it is easier to syringe than CC, some buns like it and it has a lot of fiber.

encourage your bun to move about as sitting in one spot is not conducive to getting the gut moving.
Randy ( our resident expert) would never use Reglan in his rescue as he feels it is harmful.

Several other experts like Dana Kremepls and Kathy Smith would use the drug if an x-ray has been taken to rule out an obstruction.

You have to use your own judgement and/or discuss it furher with the vet.

it may also be helpful to pick up a probiotic like benebac ( petsmart or petco) and give a dose ....recentlyI have been using benebac in addition to simethicone when my rabbits have a gasy hard stomach

 
What about the critical care? I just got that into him. He has nibbled on some of the hay, although not a lot. He did pee, it looked dark to me (I put white paper towels down under the grid of his litter pan). I didn't see blood, it was a dark rust color. I wonder now if this vet has much experience with buns. I am in MA. I will have to get the simethicone tomorrow, but will push fluids tonight.
 
pappy1264 wrote:
I have amoxycillan I picked up yesterday (for a sugar glider in case I ran out as one is on it).  Do you think I should start that? 

:scared: Ack! Definitely not! (Just to reiterate).

Great advice from AngieLuv. Agree on all fronts.

Hope he's better soon.


sas :clover:
 
pappy1264 wrote:
What about the critical care? I just got that into him. He has nibbled on some of the hay, although not a lot. He did pee, it looked dark to me (I put white paper towels down under the grid of his litter pan). I didn't see blood, it was a dark rust color. I wonder now if this vet has much experience with buns. I am in MA. I will have to get the simethicone tomorrow, but will push fluids tonight.

If it was fairly thick and dark, that's a sign of dehydration. If there was blood, it would look like little clots or veins more so than part of the coloring.

The fluids should help. Critical Care is good, too. Lots of vitamins, probiotics, etc, in it. Just make sure you soak it well -- a good 20 minutes. It absorbs a lot of fluid. You want it doing that before its in his system.

I try and mix the CC with a little pumpkin or juice so its more palatable, mine don't like it much, but ideally they should lap it up if they're hungry. And if its a tooth issue, that may be the case.

How are his poops?



sas :clover:
 
Since I have change his box out today, I have not seen him poop. His pee was not thick, just rust colored, not blood streaks.
 
He is eating more hay, so that is good. Just as a backup, does anyknow know a good rabbit vet in MA? I am wondering if I need him seen by someone else????
 
pappy1264 wrote:
What about the critical care? I just got that into him. He has nibbled on some of the hay, although not a lot. He did pee, it looked dark to me (I put white paper towels down under the grid of his litter pan). I didn't see blood, it was a dark rust color. I wonder now if this vet has much experience with buns. I am in MA. I will have to get the simethicone tomorrow, but will push fluids tonight.

The Critical care is fine but make sure that it is mixed with a lot of water and then allow it to sit awhile so that it can absorb all the water.

If it is too dry when fed to your bun it will dehydrate him even more.

I just realized that you have not told us whether your rabbit is pooping.. is the poop normal or is it small and dry or ????


Many vets useReglan so that doesn't mean that he is not rabbit saavy. He may have examined your rabbit's stomach by feel ...and determined that there is not blockage. Usually if there is a blockage the stomach would be hard and really distended. The problem is is that it would still be best to do an x-ray just in case of a blockage. if Reglan is given when there is a blockage it will cause severe contractions and nothing will be able to move through with fatal consequences.


I doubt that your rabbit has a blockage but it is usually just routine protocol to x-ray before giving it.

I will be honest and admit that (having been on the forum a long time) that I really hate to introduce doubt in an owner's mind about something a vet says or does because I lnow that it creates a lot of conflict and anxiety in the owner. I can so empathize with that because I have been in the same position.

All the vets here in my town prescribe Reglan and / or Cisapride after doing an xray.

Most of the time I will do everything I can myself with my own rabbits ...but there have been rare cases where I finally did administer a gut motility drugbecauseI could not get my bun"s GI tract moving . I have never had any bad effects from it but there can be bad effects . I read recently on Etherbun that a rabbit developed strange neurological symptoms after being administered Reglan.

Randy feels that vets prescribe it frequently because it is Win- Win situation for the vet . If the rabbit improvesthe vetcan say it was because he prescribed Reglan and if the rabbit dies the vet can say that the stasis was very severe.


A rabbit can continue to be OK without pooping as long as he is kept hydrated ( lots of fluids)

1) syringe pedialyte and pinapple juice

if the rabbit get stressed then syringe a smaller amount every few hours.

you can also flavor a bowl of water with some apple juice. I use that for 2 of my buns that barely drank water. now they drink an entire bowl a day.

2) benebac is a probiotic that reestablishes normal gut flora in the rabbits GI tract. I have noticed that it seems to be beneficial when they are either gasy or in stasis. You can get it in either small syringes of gel for small mammals in a bottle of powder (labelled for cats and dogs)which can be mixed with pedialyte. There are probiotics in Critical care so at least for now you need not worry a lot about the benebac.

3) Continue to offer greens ( which you said he is eating ) and attempt to get the little guy to move around as exercise helps the GI tract to move.

4) When you get the simethicone you can give a dose even if your bun doesn't show symptoms of gas. It is very safe andI often use it even whenI am unsure

Your buns urine may be a darker color right now if he is not getting enough fluids.

An easier way to give fluid is to do subqutaneous fluids under the skin. I know that you don't have the equpment to do that now but just something to know for another time.
oftentimes a vet or techwill show a client how to administer fluids by doing it at the vet office .
 

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