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Yes I know that. I don't think guns areeverywhere in the US. I'm just saying that it is more than Canada. Ifyou were to take a percentage of Canadians that own guns and know howto use them, and then did the same for the US, you would end up with ahigher number in the USA.

I know that guns are everywhere, we hear about shootings all the time here.

But I'm stopping now because I'm not getting my point across as to what I meant.
 
Exactly. Guns seem to be more prominentin low income, gang ridden areas, in pockets surrounding bigcities. My husband has worked in some pretty bad areas inCleveland, Ohio and we've been to some bad areas in Columbus,Ohio. Primarily it's the gang members shooting eachother with assult weapons.

I'm actually more concerned about someone stabbing me with a knife than shooting me with a gun.

Pam
 
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. What Ithought you were getting across was some *ahem* grade school MichaelMoore logic regarding the differences between the U.S. and Canada.

Sorry for the confusion :)
 
I haven't posted on this thread yet deliberately,as I have been thinking about it a lotand must admit tofeeling a little uneasy about the topic - yes, I am completely aware ofthe Canada/USA difference in gun culture, but there's an even wider gapbetween the USA and the UK.

I have a lot of thoughts running through my head after reading people'scontributions. On the one hand, I fully understand that a child broughtup in such a culture is less likely to take an unhealthy interst inguns, their presence not being a 'novelty' as such, but the prevalenceof gun owners and huntersdoes seem strange to me, as does thenotion of 'taking care of' your own rabbit.

Maybe it's because I'm a pet owner and not a breeder (not that Iquestion a breeder's care or concern for their rabbits) but Ipersonally could never administer euthanasia to a pet of mine, andfinancial status regardless, would always take an ill pet to the vet.

I spoke a lot with Ken about this post as it did affect me, and agreedwith his sentiment that such an 'exit' would be significantly lessstressful for a suffering animal, but I still feel uneasy about it, andkeep thinking about this post - I'm not even sure why as I'm notquestioning the ethics or that Pam and family love their bunnies. Ijust feel weird. :?

I hope no-one takes offence to these comments; I just wantedtoget it off my chest and see if others might be able to seewhere I'm coming from.

Lindsey




 
I'm withLindsey on this one.

However, I will go as far as to say I was disturbed by Pam's son"taking care of" the bun. Iam not questioningPam's ethics or love for her rabbits.I've read many, many posts where she has helped another poster with their rabbit's health issues. It's clear to me she lovesrabbits and is very knowledgeable about them. (I've been following the forum for a couple weeks but never posted.)

I've always been of the mind if I can't afford vet care for my pet,that I shouldn't have one. My little Sidney has cost me more in vet care in 3 years than my dog did in 15 years. Is he worth it? You bet.

I don't mean to offend anyone but this is just my opinion.
 
I'll try to treadgently and hope my usual gift for words helps me now....I'm quitecertain it has a lot to do with how and where you are raised. Iunderstand and I'm sure Pam does to, how you could feel uneasy with apractice you are not familiar with. I personally have never had to putdown an animal with a gun but it has been done in my family. It wascommon for someone else to take the chore over from the family memberwho was closest to the pet because even though it is the most humane inthose situations we might find ourselves in (when euthanasia isn't achoice) it is still difficult. Though I know it isdifficult,all I can say is you have to remove the violence ofthe act from your perception. If you can try to imagine yourself as aperson out on a range with your horse who may have been your closestfriend and companion and may have saved your life countless times, andhe is fatally injured and in pain. He is suffering and the only way toend it is with the gun you have at hand. You are doing it with love.It's not like youwould wave it around and scare him and he'dknow what you were going to do. You'd speak to him and a calm andloving voice and tell him thanks for the good times and say yourgoodbyes....he would never know what happened. That's the way aresponsible person who chooses to end an animals life with means otherthan a veterinarians assistance would choose to do it. Calmly,humanely, and with dignity. I know it's uncomfortable to think about,but most matters that revolve arounddeath are. Perhaps thistopic is more so because we take matters into our ownhandsrather than giving the responsibility to someone else.

RaspberrySwirl
 
I have a friend who works at a vets office andwas disturbed at some of the stories I had heard about incidents at theoffice and lies told to pet owners.

Also, having heard of a number of "botched" euthanasia attempts byveterinarians that resulted in trauma to the animal andemotional distress to the owner, I'm far more comfortable knowing thatI can guarantee death to be instantaneous and the rabbit will notstruggle and panic.

We raise the rabbits and we will take the responsibilityfor them until the very end because we care so much forthem.



Pam

 
I have also heardsome terrible stories about euthanasia. I researched this when I had toput my dog down and I know for a fact that there are cheaper optionsavailable to vets that cause animals to be paralyzed and while theyappear to be relaxed and falling asleep they are actually in pain. Myvet explained all of it to me. He actually showed me some books andsuch on it and showed me the vials and medications and made sure I feltcomfortable with what I was doing to my dog. I had known my vet for 20years so I was comfortable anyway, but putting an animal to sleep hasit's own worries......

Raspberry
 
m.e. wrote:
What Ithought you were getting across was some *ahem* grade school MichaelMoore logic regarding the differences between the U.S. and Canada.
Click to expand...
Well I have never seen a Micheal Moore production myself, but from whatI've heard they are rather compelling. I'm not inclined to believe themthough, from what I've heard, they are his opinion and his opinion only.

My opinions are based on personal experience and family experiences with the USA.

I did forget one big point, I don't mean the guns just start as soon asyou cross the border (actually I find people in northern states to bevery similar to myself) but as you go farther south it graduallychanges to what a Canadian might perceive as scary.

I talk to many Texans and they themselves have said that the majorityof people have guns in their possession and many have them on them allthe time (I'm not saying EVERYONE).

Also, my cousin married a Texan and moved to the USA for a while. Wellshe 'got a rude awakening' so to speak when she realized the hugedifference in American and Canadian societies. Needless to say, herTexan husband moved up here with her and she swears she will never livein the States again.
 
lol, yes it is. But I've met people like thatfrom all over ther States -- Iowa, Indiana, California, etc. I alsohave family in Kansas that thinks the Canadian way of life is totally'out of this world'.
 
I'm in a Canadian border state, so I supposeyou're right, things are kind of similar. Which is why, maybe, I didn'tunderstand you the first time. My bad :)

Other areas of the country are vastly different than here :shock:
 
m.e. wrote:
I'm ina Canadian border state, so I suppose you're right, things are kind ofsimilar. Which is why, maybe, I didn't understand you the firsttime.
Click to expand...
Actually that's my fault! It hit me just as I was leaving to go back toschool for my last class of the day that I had never made it clear.It's kind of like the stereotypical view that all Canadians live inigloos. :pI have to laugh at that because some peoplehonestly believe I do (it amazes me that they think the snow juststarts at the border). With those few people, I like to play with theirminds and say we buy internet access by the pail. ;)

I do realize the whole idea doesn't change as soon as you cross theborder but I'm sure west and east differ in their viewa, too.
 
RaspberrySwirl wrote:
how you could feeluneasy with a practice you are not familiar with. I personally havenever had to put down an animal with a gun but it has been done in myfamily. It was common for someone else to take the chore over from thefamily member who was closest to the pet because even though it is themost humane in those situations we might find ourselves in (wheneuthanasia isn't a choice) it is still difficult.RaspberrySwirl
Click to expand...

Raspberry, this whole comment was very good, I just trimmed it because it was long LOL!......

Anyhow, it reminded me of something within my family I foundodd. My husband was raised on farms, had cows and pigs,etc. He helped with cows who had trouble giving birth andtook care of these situations that sometimes arise when an animal getshurt.

Right before I had one of the kids, he was on a job with his companyand the work was being done next to a farm. One day thefarmer came out and asked for help with his cow who wascalfing. So hubby and another buddy went running.All three men helped pull a breech baby out .... it was fine andhealthy and so was mom.

So, I was asking him, "How come you hate going into the delivery roombut can deal with this stuff?" (he goes with me, he justdidn't like it lol)

His response was, "They are not my children"

In other words, the closer it is to you, the harder it is. Hedoesn't like worrying and waiting and seeing the whole process whenit's his children.

I think Pam's son showed maturity, and compassion in helpinghis mother. Those are some things that a lot of kids thesedays don't have. Growing up in an agriculteral setting is alot different than growing up in the city, etc. Kids learn todo work that some men and women find difficult, when they are veryyoung!

 
RaspberrySwirl wrote:
I'll try to tread gently and hopemy usual gift for words helps me now....I'm quite certain it has a lotto do with how and where you are raised. I understand and I'm sure Pamdoes to, how you could feel uneasy with a practice you are not familiarwith.
Click to expand...

Very nicely put, Raspberry. I wanted to comment on the point that itdoes have a lot to do with where you are raised and what you are usedto. I'll use a different situation than putting animals down to make mypoint. I have two friends who birthed their children at home. At first,all I could think of was, "ARE YOU CRAZY?". And then of course Iwondered how they could 'risk' doing something that important at home.But the more I spoke with them about the issue, and this was over thecourse of a couple of years, I began to see what a beautiful experienceit was for them. I ended up coming to the conclusion that I wished Icould have done it myself!
Most of us are used to having 'professionals' do things for us thatpeople used to always do themselves. People used to birth their ownbabies, take care of their own dead, butcher their own meat (I could sonever wring a chickens neck!) etc. No, I'm not saying we need to goback to an 'old' way of live because we have made wonderful strides inmedical and sanitary practices which have greatly improved our lives,but on the other hand that doesn't mean that you have to throw out thebaby with the bathwater, either. The homebirths these families did weredone with intelligence and caution and in tandem with a doctor andhospital.
Back to the other issue: I didn't grow up around hunting or guns, b/cmy dad is into opera and cooking, but with my husband's family it is away of life. I don't like it, but I'm not against it either. My husbandhas taken great pains to teach my son gun safety and integrity inhunting practices. (one big no-no in hunting is that you NEVER shootsomething and then just leave it in the woods, i.e. shoot something forno good reason. Dh will stay in the woods for hours until he finds theanimal. Once he couldn't find a deer that he was pretty sure he shotand I thought he would never get over it. Now this may offend someoneelse, believe me I could never hunt, but these people are not thebackwards idiots they are portrayed as in the media sometimes. Thereare goofy people from every ideal on the planet, but they are not thenorm)
Pam's son has been taught to be responsible and do the right thing,which is harder than keeping an animal around who is in pain b/c youwant someone else to do it. He has been taught to be humane about it,all while taking care of his mother and younger sibling. I wish morechildren were taught these values. He will grow up to be a valuablehusband and father, and we could use a lot more of these.
I hope nobody minds my .02! :D
 
pamnock wrote:
I'm far more comfortable knowing that I canguarantee death to be instantaneous and the rabbit will not struggleand panic.

We raise the rabbits and we will take the responsibilityfor them until the very end because we care so much forthem.


Pam
Click to expand...
Pam,

I really hope you didn't find my comments on this thread offensive: youpersonally have helped me many times with my own bunnies, and the factthat you love your rabbits and treat them with kindness was never inquestion, nor were the actions your son took in ending the rabbit'spain.

Perhaps it was merely thatI have so many new kits, and amfeeling extremely sentimental towards them; perhaps it was that we inthe UK do not have such access to guns; perhaps it was that theprevious day I had argued with my brother who hunts (I am extremelyagainst hunting) and he had killed several birds. For whatever reason Ifelt strange, I had hoped to stress in the post that it wasmy opinion - my feeling weird - that mademe write; not that I took issue with the situation whatsoever.

I hope this has clarified my intention a little more - apologies if Ihurt anyone's feelings or made them feel they had to defend themselves.:(

Lindsey


 
Great post Sunnysideup! I liked thepoint you made that "Most of us are used to having 'professionals' dothings for us that people used to always do themselves."

I grew up on a small farm, where our family provided for ourselves,raising much of our food and "doctoring" our own animals.Those experiences and work ethic are still with me to this day and whenI have an animal, I take responsibility for it. Anything lessis not acceptable to me, and yes, sometimes this involves some thingsthat are not pleasant.

Lindsey, I think that once again, we have been given an example of whythis board is so unique and so special to all of us in the fact that wecan express our feelings (including our discomfort about what someoneelse has done) and do it in amature manner. Thereis certainly no reason for you, or anyone else to apologize forexpressing your feelings and I'm glad you felt comfortable enough hereto do so.

I also respect the fact that some people were very disturbed by thisand I apologize for upsetting anyone. I think that people aremost disturbed by it because, as the AMVA points out, it is"aesthetically unpleasant" andmany prefer the more"sanitized" method of injection.

The following is taken froma report by theAMVA(American Medical Veterinary Association) and their determination onusing gunshot as a form of euthanasia:





[align=center]Gunshot
[/align]

In some circumstances, gunshot may be the only practical method ofeuthanasia. It should be performed by highly skilled personnel using afirearm appropriate for the situation. For captive animals, the firearmshould be aimed so that the projectile enters the brain, causinginstant unconsciousness.[suP]30,78-80[/suP] For wildlifeand other freely roaming animals, the preferred target area should bethe head or neck.


Advantages - (1) Unconsciousness is instantaneous if theprojectile destroys most of the brain. (2) Under field conditions,gunshot may be the only effective method available.


Disadvantages - (1) It may be dangerous to personnel. (2) It isaesthetically unpleasant. (3) Under field conditions, it may bedifficult to hit the vital target area.


Recommendations - When other methods cannot be used, anaccurately delivered gunshot is an acceptable method of euthanasia.When the animal can be appropriately restrained, the penetratingcaptive bolt is preferred to gunshot. Gunshot should not be used forroutine euthanasia of animals in animal control situations, such asmunicipal pounds or shelters.
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