Conan the Bunbarian & Xena Bunnier Princess

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Hi there! I live nearby, in Long Island :) I just flipped through your blog and read a lot of your bonding date entries. Such meticulous documenting of every encounter - amazing! Your dedication will not be for naught :)

Your bunnies are gorgeous and I love their names.
 
Thanks kirbyultra, my family appreciates the oh so sweet compliments, especially when struggling with my little rascals. It heartens me when people read the many entries and still say these two can work or that I'm doing right by persevering cause sometimes I have my doubts.
 
It can be so hard to know if a bond will work out, especially with them not instantly taking to each other. I think only you can really know if it is going to work out or not, since you are the one that knows them best, and are experiencing the difficulties of the bond. I think that sometimes perseverance can work, and eventually the rabbits get used to each other enough that they can learn to tolerate each other, and maybe even learn to like each other over time. But I also think there are some rabbits that will never get along because of their personality types. It may also be that they may be able to bond at a much later time, after having some time to get over their disagreements with each other and having more time to get used to being separate but around each other. I think we RO folks always hope for a happily bonded couple, but it doesn't always work out that way, and that's ok too.
 
It's hard to say whether the buns will really ever get along, and it's ultimately up to the two of them. But there are things that we can do to help them get on better. Your buns have been together dozens of time for countless hours already and you've seen them really get into it badly with each other and you've seen Xena groom Conan. They're mixed signals but the potential is there.

For Conan to go after Xena right after she groomed him, my question is does he think she's being too presumptuous? Maybe that she hasn't earned the right to lick him? And he still isn't sure about her given their past?

Plenty of people come to our rescue looking for bondmates for their existing bunnies and what we always tell them is to go as slow as you need to go so that they never get a chance to get aggressive with each other. I know you are way beyond that because you have set them on their own for upwards of an hour on some dates already. I've read that you pick up on signals from them that they're about to circle each other and things like that. You've seen the warning signs of when one is about to get nippy or about to lunge. Just don't ever let it get there. If they're fine together for 3 minutes before somebun gets cranky, then the date should end at 3 minutes. Rest for a while, then try again later in the day if you have time. If they are happily ignoring each other for 90 minutes but at the 91st minute someone starts to chase, the date should end right then and there, not after someone's gotten a paw to the face or fur in the mouth. It's very important to end the dates on a positive note. The buns should go back to their own territories knowing that they were with the other bunny for a period of time and nothing bad happened, and that they shouldn't feel threatened.

If you can only consistently manage 60 minutes a day, then plan to go 60 minutes and end it there. It is better progress for the bunnies to consistently have no lunging and fighting together for an hour a day for two weeks straight than for them to sometimes fight and sometimes not fight because you're pushing the 2 hour mark. The idea is to get your bunnies trained to understand that they are safe with each other, and there is absolutely nothing to feel upset about whenever the other one is around. Once they've achieved zero aggression for a set period of time, you can comfortably extend their time together. We've had people who literally had to start their bonding process at the 60 second mark. Set the buns down in the neutral zone, set the timer and after 60 seconds, pick them up, and put them back into their own areas. Work up to 5 minutes. Then 7 minutes. Then 10 minutes, and so on. The longer they go without being bothered by the other, the more confident they'll feel around them.
 
I think we´ve all got so involved with these two that we so want it to work and see them happily together. I still get the feeling that they will work things out but as with others, you know your two better than anyone so you have to decide what´s best for them. We´ll all still be here rooting for you and for them and hoping for our happy ending.
 
Chrisdoc said:
We´ll all still be here rooting for you and for them and hoping for our happy ending.
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Absolutely this! Apologies in advance for the big long reply that no one asked for from me! Overall, from the outside looking in, I do feel like your buns have what it takes. They just seem unsure of each other for now but they show promise to be a bonded pair.
 
Date XXXII

Left them again today for 3 hours. Partly because I had to clean their cage and partly because it went so well yesterday it figured lets try it again. In the beginning they were lying next to each other, eating over one another and Xena groomed Conan. Towards the end however, pretty much in the last 20min Xena started chasing off Conan, or maybe Conan started running off. I'm not entirely sure because I stayed in earshot but not there though I did check often. They did end with a solid 10min time of just laying around which to me was a good sign to end it.

Seems in some cases that everything my rabbits do, they do far more slowly then other bonding rabbits I've read about. It took Conan two months into it to start marking. Now 4 months into it Xena has started chasing Conan. Usually Conan used to stand his ground but now he runs away. No fighting which is great, though its weird seeing Conan running but being the one getting groomed.

***

Wow, never saw this many replies all at once. Thanks folks for the advice. Obviously I'm not taking it so slow right now taking that many hours its just that I have worked up to that point. Though I see a lot of positive signs I also see quite a few negative and me and the wife are at the point that if things take another set back, a real fight, we're ready to call it quits with bonding and just enjoy two lovely seperate rabbits. We're not trying to be selfish, of course them being together would make our lives easier but for sure it would improve their's, such as more run time. We just dont want to see our buns get hurt in the process. I'm sure all bonders feel that way so I'm trying to he as objective as I can on the matter and really question my perceptions in this process.

Here's my current musings and I'd like any advice others have who have had successful bondings. They can both be in neutral territory relatively well, the issue comes up when either something new is brought into the mix or shared territory is used as the bonding site. How do you lessen the impact of these two things? When its mentioned to clean the area thoroughly of bunny influence (such as shared territory) does that mean water/vinegar on carpets, sofa etc and just how effective is that on those things?
 
I think it's entirely up to you and your wife and you shouldn't feel bad that you want to throw in the towel on bonding. You guys know your bunnies better than anyone and your judgment of how far these guys can go is probably the right way to go in the end. Bonding bunnies is so stressful - for the humans and for the bunnies.

If you had more than the two buns there's a good chance that a good rub down with vinegar on surfaces the third bun had access to would be a start but you don't have that problem. Shared territory where each individual bunny may have claimed separate as their own (it's theirs when it's THEIR turn to play and the other is safely put away) is definitely tougher. Any sane person can't be expected to destroy all rabbity scents in their living room every time they wanted to do a bonding date. Vinegar is very effective at destroying the proteins in urine so it does work, but it also stinks :( I don't remember reading if you did but this one woman bonded her two boys in two weeks by swapping their cages for 12 hours at a time! She made territorial dispute an advantage!

Maybe some misdirection would be a good way to distract your bunnies in shared territory. Load em up in a big laundry basket and take them for a walk up and down a hallway they've never been to, or a basement, or in the garage... It takes them out of their element so when they go back in their bonding site they're less focused on where they are and more about who they're with. Stress bonding is a method some people find very effective. The buns get stressed out a bit in a controlled environment, and they'll seek comfort in each other. Another way to maybe bribe some kisses is to smear some banana on their noses or rub a drop of vanilla extract on their heads.

It is so funny how your buns can go so many hours uneventfully. Maybe they're having bunny conversations we don't pick up on. That picture of Conan slipping his head under Xena trying to have a bite tells a small story. It looks like he wants her attention but she's too busy for him at the moment. While she does selectively groom him, there seems to be still some dispute over who's the top bunny here. Without knowing who's really the boss, it's hard to solidify a relationship.

When I was bonding my pair, Penny tried to get Kirby to groom her and she'd try to slip her head under his head, legs, stomach... she tried! Sometimes he would oblige and sometimes he would ignore her. He would get so annoyed by her attempts that finally he did end up boxing her and got her good in the face. After a couple of times of being smacked around she got scared and she stopped trying. She did not fight back. Eventually so much "nothing" happened during their dates that I decided it was time to let them go a full day together without knowing who was the alpha still. Weeks went by before Kirby started to lower his head and demand grooming. Penny would try and refuse at first but eventually she gave in. Today, Kirby demands and Kirby gets. Penny demands rarely and gets it even more rarely. :boxing
 
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Just listing some of the things I have done or am doing. I tried to do the whole smear apple sauce, then banana on the bridge of noses. Neither noticed it and all i ended up with was stick rabbits :). I swap their cages every day and I know Conan feels both cages are his (though lately he's been marking poops a lot in hers) while Xena isn't so obvious but relaxes just fine in both. Stressing them is a strange thing, it seems to work on Xena meanwhile on Conan he just appears so laid back he doesn't care. Both handle car rides a little to easy though I haven't done it in a while, the bath tub only stresses them while their in it and once outside it's like nothing happened. I haven't tried putting them over a dryer since I don't have machines. I did try the laundry basket but and it stressed out Xena but their big rabbits and she nearly leaped out while i was carrying it. I can't remember any other tricks except the exchanging stuffy's thing I might have tried though I'm sure I've tried a lot more then I'm listing. Oh, lately I've been stressing them by putting them in the same carrier which does hqve a minor effect on them. Mostly they both seem so unflappable...

As for the pic, Conan was the one lying there and Xena decided to go over him like that to eat. First time i've ever seen that happen.
 
It sounds like you've gone through the entire thing with them already and it is more or less up to them now. Two big bunnies who take everything in stride... never would have thought it'd work against you that way! But like I said, it sounds like they have good potential if they're withstanding long periods of time around each other, they just need to figure each other out and that could take months, some people bond on and off for well over a year. It's the ones where they see each other and within seconds are circling, lunging and pulling out fur and skin that are probably not going to bond. It's nerve racking and stressful. If you decide to keep going to see if it's possible, we'd love to hear all about the ongoing adventures of our hero buns. If you decide it's best for everybun to let things be, it's fine too. There is kind of life the buns can live unbonded, too. It's not like they'll never see each other or smell each other. Some bunnies feel most at ease when they are aware there is another bun around and their daily routine is to just keep tabs on that bun's comings and goings. It is a form of stimulus and it keeps them busy. Two unbonded bunnies are less bored than a single lonely bunny :)
 
Date XXXIII

This one went only 45min and I might have done something wrong at the end. See I'm only on 4 hours sleep and had to go to work but I didnt want to miss a day of bonding. My wife is off, but she's not confident about breaking them up so I was only going to let it last about an hour or hour and a half. But then i heard a commotion and saw chasing and thay Conan got some fur pulled so I instantly stopped the date.

No cool down period, no waiting for them to calm down, no stress trick to lessen animosity. Just didn't have it in me today and I certainly don't want to see more of Conan's fur pulled. So I'm going to put the blame on this date on me for just not having the patience or probably the right tempermant to do this today. I'll try tomorrow and if I get another negative reaction then I might...well I'll see tomorrow and figure it out.

**
 
Date XXXIV

Three successful hours, along with some never before seen oddities. For the most part the buns were pretty chill, however they have both found a favorite spot and there's some jockeying for it. Conan takes to running from aggression now or maybe its Xena takes to chasing him off. Either way besides one incident of fur pull from Xena the rabbits were cordial with each other.

The first oddity came before the day date during the day. My wife tells me they were grooming each other between the cages. Forgot to ask her who, but this sure beats the infrequent occasions when they try to fight between cages and is a first for them that we've witnessed. The second oddity comes during the date. Xena spent much of her time planting herself in front of Conan wither her rump to his nose. First time she's done such a thing consistently and on purpose. Conan then took to either grooming her feet and nether regions or nipping her. I couldn't quite tell but since Xena's reactions were rather mild I think it was the former.

Towards the end they got a little squirrely, or I guess more aptly rabbity and a bit more chasing was done. At times I thought a full on fight was about to happen when Conan would rush Xena (I think she thought so to) but all he would do is slide into the contested spot and hunker his head and body down looking like he both captured the spot and wanted grooming at the same time. Xena just stood her ground and both huddled together in a ball looking rather uncomfortable until one of them scampered off. So again, i think this date went well.

I'll probably continue dating until I do another marathon date on Friday unless a set back occurs. I'm still considering putting an end to bonding for now but since both aren't harming each other I guess I should give them a chance. Or me a chance, whichever.

***
 
Date XXXV

Today is cage cleaning day so I left them to themselves in the kitchen while I cleaned the pet room. Of course they were within ear shot and I had a visual of them. Three hours went by and all was well.

Now specifics, well Xena chased off Conan quite a few times, Conan rushed her at times to get around her, but there was no fighting. They spent a majority of the date lying on opposite sides but looked quite relaxed. No grooming that I saw. In a sense this date was a step back because there was no progress or even the usual close behavior they've exhibited before, but again absolutely no fighting so I'm okay with it.

Tomorrow I plan another 10 hour marathon date so in truth it's tomorrow I'll see if this thing can work and I continue it.

**
 
Date XXXVI


So this marathon date went fantastic! 9 hours and so many good things occurred. For one, both Conan and Xena took turns grooming each other. They would also lambchopped side by side and in other ways bonded bunnies would relax together. Best of all, no fighting! Sure there was chasing off and such, but Conan has stopped standing his ground. It seems like he's the submissive one and is making strides in accepting that.

My plan is to definitely continue bonding, and going forward to keep dates as long I can until I have a spare weekend in the next few weeks to cement a bond. The trick though is they are behaving well in neutral territory, eventually I'm going to have to try a shared area and I'm afraid that they're just too territorial for that to go smoothly. Anyway I shouldn't dwell on that and should just enjoy that things went so swimmingly.

****+
 
YIPPPPEEE....that is such good news and so positive. I am so glad things went well and that you´re going to perservere, a happy note for me to the end of a very long weekend, thanks for brightening my Sunday you two. :biggrin2:
 
Date XXXVII

Well as usual after the positive comes the negative. Two steps forward and one step back. Yesterdays date started off antagonistic and pretty much stayed that way. I did leave them together for 3 hours, but during the middle of it they got into a scuffle and fur pulling was involved. I stopped it before it got too bad, and afterwards they mostly ignored or chased each other off. There was some brief times that Conan groomed Xena but generally it wasn't a comfortable date.

I'm going to date today but I just don't have the time to make it a long one. We'll see how it goes.

**
 
Date XXXVIII

What a downer. Had a day day so this was to be a pick me up of sorts. Put the buns together and of course the begin to squabble from the get go. The chasing off is ok but now Conan has begun lunging which was a thing he didnt do (guess he's learning from Xena). They seem to be fighting over a spot, and when I take even that spot away they still fight over something.

That and they've begun peeing. 4 months of bonding and that has never happened.'oh it started once last night but I took it as an abberation, tonight twice and i know Conanfor sure did it but I can't be positive that Xena didnt do it as well. And we we're making such progress.

Before I ended the hour long date I decided to stress them by putting them together in a single carrier for 10min. Tomorrow i might enlist the bathtub. Either way i'm disappointed but the point has been truly hit home that bonding takes patience.

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