A very unpopular view

[MissBinky]

While I respect everyone here, I would like to speak my mind as this seems to be one big misunderstanding. The forum is here to guide, educate, and assist rabbit owners. The problem is that while forum members are very open to assisting, they are all very passionate about rabbits and that passion sometimes comes across as aggression.

The thing is here, on this forum, we're all supposed to have only one thing in mind: our rabbits' welfare. The very reason for joining this forum is to learn, to teach, and help each other. If you come to this forum and ask members for advice, ask only if you are really sincere. People here love rabbits and treat them like family members. It is more frustrating to see people who really don't know better make mistakes compared to watching the very forum members we (the forum) strive to educate. We know they know better, we know they are better than that.

Every decision you make, every word of advice you give, should be about the rabbit. We can only do the best we can, and try to make the best decisions possible but we'll all make mistakes. The difference is we need to grow from them.

What I am going to say (and I hope it comes out right) is touchy, please don't take offense...

We all have different opinions, views, understandings... I, personally, do not like rabbit showing much and I wouldn't do it to my bunny (ies). I have my own reasons for that. However, does that mean I have something against Pamnock who is an ARBA judge? No, of course not. What it means, is that I sit here and read about it and make a personal decision as to why or why not I would show. And, I respect those who do show because they see it differently.

Breeding always was a difficult subject. The only question is: Why breed? Are you doing it for the rabbits? Or are you doing it for your own pleasure? Is it genuine or selfish?

Deciding to go ahead and breed a rabbit that is overage, with insufficient resources, is something that the forum is against. Why? Simply because it is all too possible that one or more rabbits may suffer in the end. And that's not to say that the owner wouldn't hurt emotionally afterwards after.

I'm going to mention Becca only because she was mentionned...

You must understand that Becca is 13. Until recently, she only owned a single rabbit. She then got 2 more, thus making 3. Then that one died and now she got Benji. She currently owns 3 rabbits. Becca is not a breeder. She joined this forum less than a year ago to learn. She still has much much to learn and because of this, now is just not a good time to end up with a bunch of baby bunnies on her hands. She should be using this time to bond with her own bunnies rather than making more. Aside from that, is the fact that she is in school and with that comes activities, homework, etc etc. Not only that, but I personally, do not feel she is ready emotionally to handle the responsibilities that breeding rabbits involves. Personally I was upset because i had talked to Becca about fostering a pregnant doe rather than risking her own bunny's life so that she could get the oppurtunity to live that experience and she ignored it. On top of all that, many members ended up feeling like fools because she lied and that just goes to prove that she still has much to learn. And that's not a bad thing Becca. The thing is, at one point, it's up to them. You can't make the decision for the person.

It's like a child... You can only raise them up to the best of your capabilities and then hope for the rest. If they fail, it is because they chose to, not because you didn't inform them properly. But you can be there when they see the reality, and let them learn to listen to you more closely.

 

[polly]

Sabine wrote:

Dear Polly, sorry for not quoting your post as the thread becomes hard to read, that's what I meant by not wanting to offend any genuine breeders and I have offended you I can tell. My apologies. The comparison I drew was simply to illustrate that someone breeding rabbits (say one litter) as pets is not necessarily creating more unhappy buns than an established breeder. I do like the picture of your set up but I've seen different but don't want to point at any particular location for obvious reasons.

Its ok Sabine I will admit that yes it is very hard not to take offense and I know I had a comment on my thread not sure by who saying my hutches looked small. Lol I was showing one of my friends from on here some of my rabbits through my webcam and she was like wow your hutches are so much bigger than they look. especially as nethies are so tiny. EVerything I do is for my rabbits. My husband didn't work for nearly 8 months and my rabbits came before we did! SO it is hard not to take offense but I do understand where you are coming from I was just trying to explain a bit why I was not for Becca breeding.

My main thing is that I would not breed one rabbit at a time for the main reason that you can very easily have problems

as an example. I mated up my doe Miffy (who I use a lot as a foster doe if I need to) the same time I mated my chin doe mimzy. Miffy had 3 healthy babies. Mimzy gave us 3 babies but 2 were peanuts 1 died straight away the other died teh next day. you are then left with 1 baby that will not keep itself warm enough so I fostered it to Miffy so it had a better chance of survival. The next day we unexpectedly got a litter again of 3 babies off a lionhead who we have from another breeder for a mate up with one of our bucks. (she did not relise she had caught) unfortunately with her being in a new place she scattered her nest and 2 babies died of cold. teh 3rd baby was still in what was left of teh nest so again I took teh decision to remove it she was not settled enough and probably if I hadnt i would have found the other baby dead too. Now Miffy has 5 and is doign brilliantly. or I would have lost another 2 on top of the 4 I did lose

I also have another 2 litters that were in with us tonight as their eyes are now open and have had cuddles and runs on the sofa (they will get onto the floor in another weeks time when they are bigger all have been handled and checked today to make sure everything is fine

Just trying to explain a bit :biggrin2:

 

[Sabine]

Dear Polly (sorry again for not quoting but threads get insanely long) I so love the sound of your rabbitry. I do appreciate the hard work you must be putting into it and I envy you for the you you get from all these cute little baby bunnies. They sure are in good hands. And sorry again as if i came across as if to say all show breeders just breed for personal glory and don't care about their rabbits as much as pet owners.
My rabbits are all pets and I don't know if you recall that I came onto the forum because I had two ssurprise litters over summer. I for example would have been a typical breeder to supply pet stores. My baby rabbits were only fed on the best oxbow pellets and timothy hay imported from the UK at premium price. I seemed to spent most of my time handling them moving them in and out of runs etc... Of course they were mutts. They got the best care ever, were as healthy and happy as can be and one of them was even rehomed after having received the myxi shot. Yet I am a so called back yard breeder (I know you don't like the term either)
Just to explain my set up

 

[JadeIcing]

I had so much I wanted to say so much but Miss Binky said it so well I will just have to aggree with most. Except if I had the time and money I wouldn't mind having one bunny to go to show with.

 

[Michaela]

I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, but get the gist of it, and feel I should respond. :sigh:

Just because shelters aren't over-run with rabbits here doesn't mean there aren't bunnies needing homes, and does not make back-yard breeding ok.

Classified ads in the papers are FULL of rabbits needing homes! All you ever see is "1 year old albino rabbit free to good home with free hutch", hutch as in tiny box. :tears2:

And there are rabbits in shelters too, after a lot of searching I found the Assissi shelter in Down which takes in rabbits, and a few in the south I have saw on the Internet too. And of course there is the Pets at Home adoption centre, may not be ideal but it is better than a back-yard breeder.

And there are better breeders here too, I have been to shows, they aren't all that common but they do exist.

 

[Sabine]

Michaela wrote:

I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, but get the gist of it, and feel I should respond. :sigh:

Just because shelters aren't over-run with rabbits here doesn't mean there aren't bunnies needing homes, and does not make back-yard breeding ok.

Classified ads in the papers are FULL of rabbits needing homes! All you ever see is "1 year old albino rabbit free to good home with free hutch", hutch as in tiny box. :tears2:

And there are rabbits in shelters too, after a lot of searching I found the Assissi shelter in Down which takes in rabbits, and a few in the south I have saw on the Internet too. And of course there is the Pets at Home adoption centre, may not be ideal but it is better than a back-yard breeder.

And there are better breeders here too, I have been to shows, they aren't all that common but they do exist.

Living in Cork (far South) county Down is quite a distance. I had local ads up an ad on gumtree and I pestered animal rescues in the neighbouring counties for several months (they started dreading me:X) No luck! If you do see a shelter nearer the south let me know as I searched far and wide

 

[gentle giants]

As I have said before, I started out breeding my rabbits, and decided to stop breeding and rescue instead because (a) I realized I was not able to do it *right* i.e. driving long distances to get the best stock and the like. (b) I also discovered that in my area, there ARE no shelters/rescues that take in rabbits, most of them get dumped, given away in the newspaper, or sold at auction.

It's lovely that you don't have an overpopulation probelm there, but it's pretty irrelavant since we were talking about where Becca lives, where there IS a problem. Since I have been rescueing (about two-three years) I have had a lot of rabbits in very bad shape turned in to my care. And not one was from abreeder situation, all were from pet owners. I have eight beautiful Harlequins in my barn right now that came about because someone let their two bunnies play together, and then decided that not only did they not want the babies, but didn't like the dad either. This has been said before, but I'm going to repeat it, because it's a very imprtant part of why Becca was getting critisised for breeding. Her doe was TOO OLD. Others have given info on why that's a bad thing, so I won't repeat that. But you won't catch any repsonsible breeder doing that to his/her rabbits.

Do you have any idea what it is like trying to make sure the potential home for a rabbit will really be responsible? You have to ask questions ( and know the right questions to ask) you MUST charge a fee for them, but it has to be low enough not to drive off an adopter, and high enough to deter people who won't care for them properly. Breeding is not a game, not something to do just because it would be fun to have babies. It's a very serious commitment, and it takesa lot of research and work. You have a responsibilty to those rabbits which you produce.

 

[Happi Bun]

gentle giants... great post! :bow

 

[LadyBug]

Gentle Giants, MissBinky........:great:

you both put it so well andi totally agree with both of you. thanks for great, well-worded, informational posts:thumbup.
and i think everyone needs to realize that rabbit breeding/rescue situations are different for each region, country, etc. and go based off the country/region the person is in

 

[Bassetluv]

Many of you here knew about my first English lop, Raphael. He came to me from a breeder who had originally aquired him - and a few of his relatives - from another breeder. The person who bred Raph's parents was a girl who (as I later discovered) was eager to breed and sell E-lops, but she apparently knew nothing about breeding and simply decided to take rabbits and put them together, not looking at genetics, faults, background, etc. Raph was one result of her haphazard breedings; and as I also later discovered, his sire was a rabbit who was destroyed not long after I got Raph, because of his own physical defaults...which were also passed on to Raphael.

I will certainly never regret having Raph come into my life, but cannot begin to tell you the amount of emotional pain I went through over watching his physical struggles on a daily basis and later, his suffering as pain meds began to fail. No animal should be born into such a life, and while there is no guarantee on predicting an animal's health before birth, doing one's homework, investing time, money, and dedication to ensure as much as possible that any planned breedings will be as safe as possible is the responsibility of any animal breeder...be they owners of high-volume rabbitries or the so-called 'backyard breeders' with one or two does and an available buck.

All I think we can hope to do in a forum such as this is answer questions for anyone who has them in an honest manner, without judgement as much as possible, but at the same time underscoring the possibilities of the risks involved when one does not have the experience and knowledge under their belts that another may have....and then hope that whatever the person decides to do will ultimately be in the best interest of their animals.

Raph's legacy is that his life was cut short far too soon, and he lived with pain and struggle for most of that short life because whoever decided to breed rabbits was either far too uniformed and unknowledgeable, or simply did not care enough, and as a result employed bad breeding habits. Personally I cannot condemn any individual person for their decisions if they choose to become a breeder, or raise a litter or two, as it is ultimately their decision to make; all I can do is convey Raph's story to whoever wishes to listen, and hope that in so doing, it will cause one to take pause before making that decision.

And if Raph's story touches one person enough to take that pause, then his suffering was not in vain.

 

[TinysMom]

LadyBug wrote:

i think everyone needs to realize that rabbit breeding/rescue situations are different for each region, country, etc. and go based off the country/region the person is in

I think this is an important point to consider. For instance - where I live in Texas - there are no rabbits in shelters...and if people want to rehome rabbits or have an accidental litter - they take them to the feed store to sell them as pets - or sometimes (unfortunately) - they let them go loose into the wild.

So where I live - there is no "abundance" of rabbits and in fact - the feed store has asked me several times to please consider breeding again.

But go 150-300 miles away - and there are rabbits in shelters for Petfinder - and on Craigslist, etc. Its amazing what a difference those miles make.

I'd like to bring up a different point about breeding though...

I started breeding because I adopted two lionhead rabbits and loved them. I bought rabbits for breeding - but when I was going to breed my second set of litters (I bred does at the same time so I could foster babies if need be)....I decided to breed my pet lionhead, GingerSpice.

Up until I bred her - and until she had the babies and was weaning them - she was in good health. Excellent health even. She was active and such a joy to watch.

But sometime during the last couple weeks of having her babies before weaning - her immune system started going "wonky". Its hard to explain - but the next 15 months were filled with bouts of illness. She developed ec (among other things) and she spent the last three or four months of her life pretty much in her "recliner" (a basket she stayed in and was with me most of the time).

I regret so much that I ever bred her. I can not say with certainty that she got ill because she was bred but I will always believe in my heart that if I had not bred her, she would still be alive today. (She was also the first love of Tiny's life and after she got ill and wasn't able to be around him much - he went through a depression).

I've had over 75 litters with my rabbits (I'd have to sit down and figure it all out). During those 75 litters, I've had several that were easy deliveries (something lionheads are usually good at) and everything went well. I've had others where I had premature babies - where mothers cannibalized babies (sometimes by overzealous cleaning) - and where babies just failed to thrive. I've had peanuts and I've had deformed bunnies born too. I want to say that I sat down one time and figured it all out and out of the 70 litters I'd had to that date - something like 25 or 30 of them had seen mothers raise the FULL litter to weaning with no complications. Usually - in the other litters - there was some sort of problem - either a peanut - or a baby that might not do well at weaning and die at 6-7 weeks of age - or something else. Those aren't exactly encouraging odds. (In some cases - these were due to the fact that lionheads can carry the dwarfing gene - unlike larger breeds like Californians and Flemish Giants, etc).

There have been days on end (when I would have 4-6 sets of litters) where I almost hated to walk into the rabbitry because we were losing babies for unknown reasons. Many times it was first time mamas that were neglecting them and I couldn't get them to thrive...sometimes it was other things.

When I look back at the joy of my breeding experiences (and there have been many of them) - they are almost always tainted with the sorrow of the losses and experiences I've had.

Even if everything went well with a litter - I still faced a loss - the loss of rehoming those babies that I'd held and loved on since day one. Sometimes it was easy to let them go - other times - it was very hard and I would cry myself to sleep at night after letting a beloved baby go.

I've not only lost babies - I've lost mamas and nearly lost mamas after problems.

I was against Becca breeding - at her young age - because I wanted to spare her the pain I've gone through and the sights I've seen when first time mamas neglect their babies. She didn't have a second doe for fostering - so I didn't want her to dread going in every morning or evening to check the nest and wonder which baby she's lost this time.

Most of all - I didn't want the doe to have complications and have Becca lose a beloved pet - which from what I understand - is actually her sister's (I could be wrong on that).

If I came across harsh - I apologize. I was not angry - but I was trying to spare Becca what I felt could become hurtful situations if all did not go well.

Whatever happens - I wish Becca the best....and I hope I've explained my position so you can understand where I come from - based on my limited experience at breeding.

 

[tinymonster]

I just wanted to thank everyone for posting here. Not that I had any plans to breed rabbits, but I had no idea that it was such an ordeal and so dangerous. It makes sense, or course; they breed so easily, quickly and early that the world would be flooded with them if every birth was successful.

I'm so sorry for those of you that have experienced such pain!

 

[Jenk]

Bassetluv wrote:

...I will certainly never regret having Raph come into my life, but cannot begin to tell you the amount of emotional pain I went through over watching his physical struggles on a daily basis and later, his suffering as pain meds began to fail. No animal should be born into such a life....

...Raph's legacy is that his life was cut short far too soon, and he lived with pain and struggle for most of that short life because whoever decided to breed rabbits was either far too uniformed and unknowledgeable, or simply did not care enough, and as a result employed bad breeding habits.

...If Raph's story touches one person enough to take that pause, then his suffering was not in vain.

I never knew Raph's story (and feel as though I've only touched the tip of the iceburg, so to speak). :tears2: I am so very sorry for your experience, though I am glad that Raph is no longer suffering. I feel glad, though, that you've shared your story, which is instrumental in informing other bun owners, would-beowners and even would-be breeders.

Two of my bunners (my first two) came from a pet store--a fact of which I'm not proud. Both girls have digestive issues, which I believe are genetic. Though Zoe has megacolon symptoms, she has a more robust (Mini-Rex-shaped) body; our Emma has a more streamlined, lightweight (3.25-lb.) body and goes into stasis frequently. There are days when I wonder if she'll bemy first bun "to go," although Itry to not dwell. :tears2:

 

[Luv-bunniz]

Sabine, you're country is very lucky not to have an over-population problem. But don't compare your country to the UK or USA as far as animal welfare and population goes. I want to move to ireland now...

 

[Sabine]

Luv-bunniz wrote:

Sabine, you're country is very lucky not to have an over-population problem. But don't compare your country to the UK or USA as far as animal welfare and population goes. I want to move to ireland now...

I just wonder if rabbits increased in popularity over here would we face the same situation too. because it's not that Irish people don't abandon their animals. There are loads of cats and dogs up for adoption.
The downside is though you get very little bunny things and bunny information over here. Timothy hay and pellets have to be imported from the UK if you want to feed them to your rabbits. pet shops are often ignorant as to what breed of rabbit they are selling. For example when I bought my first rabbit, Coco, I politely inquired what breed she was. The reply was: "Why, he's a bunny!" And they got the sex wrong too

 

[Michaela]

Luv-bunniz wrote:

Sabine, you're country is very lucky not to have an over-population problem. But don't compare your country to the UK or USA as far as animal welfare and population goes. I want to move to ireland now...

There is an over-population problem here! :sigh: Sure, it's not as huge as North America's problem, of course it's not, this place is more rural, less densely populated so there aren't the same kind of numbers, but it's still a problem.

A lot of shelters are kill shelters, many won't even take rabbits. There are many, many rabbits needing homes, like I said, the place to find them is newspaper classifieds, also notice boards in petshops, etc.

 

[Luv-bunniz]

Sabine wrote:

Luv-bunniz wrote:

Sabine, you're country is very lucky not to have an over-population problem. But don't compare your country to the UK or USA as far as animal welfare and population goes. I want to move to ireland now...

The reply was: "Why, he's a bunny!"

OMG..LOL of the day !!!
Michaela - See, I thought there was! but the way people explained it was that it was difficult to get a rabbit in the first place! thanks

 

[Michaela]

Sabine wrote:

I just wonder if rabbits increased in popularity over here would we face the same situation too. because it's not that Irish people don't abandon their animals. There are loads of cats and dogs up for adoption.
The downside is though you get very little bunny things and bunny information over here. Timothy hay and pellets have to be imported from the UK if you want to feed them to your rabbits. pet shops are often ignorant as to what breed of rabbit they are selling. For example when I bought my first rabbit, Coco, I politely inquired what breed she was. The reply was: "Why, he's a bunny!" And they got the sex wrong too

Is there no Jollye's stores, or Pets at Home stores in the south? (I genuinely don't know if you have them down there). But there are branches in the North and it makes getting good rabbit supplies much easier.

As for the behaviour you experienced in the petshop.. I'm pretty sure that is a universal problem, there are bad pet shops in Britain and North America too, and many people there are sold rabbits with the wrong information on their sex and breed.

 

[irishbunny]

Aw I would love to help an abandoned bun from the UK...

 

[Michaela]

irishbunny wrote:

Aw I would love to help an abandoned bun from the UK...

What about an abandoned bun in your local newspaper? I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that papers can be full of ads here for rabbits free to good homes (and I'm not just talking accidental litters, older rabbits that are no longer wanted) when there are so so many here. :?