A very unpopular view

[Sabine]

This has been on my mind for quite some time and I am trying not to come across offensive to anybody.
As many of you know I live in Ireland and the whole “rabbit scene” is rather different than in the UK or in the States from what I have read. Breeding is not half as organised and people obtain their rabbits mainly from pet shops that in turn have breeders (often simply private people that just put their two rabbits together) who supply them with rabbits. You are neither guaranteed sex nor breed of the rabbit you purchase. This may horrify some of you but on the other hand there are virtually no abandoned rabbits around (trust me I have tried to adopt, making phone calls all over the country). I just need to fill you in so that you see where I am coming from.
My issue is: why is it so condemnable that people like myself or say Becca may want to have their rabbits have a litter before they get speutered, Bearing in mind that these possible litters would get the best care possible and the most carefully chosen prospective owners. A more established breeder with several litters on the go would hardly be able to afford the same time and expense I imagine. Also, what about breeders that breed for show purposes? How many litters does it take to achieve the “perfect pattern” or the right amount of fur in the right place etc,,,? What happens to the” surplus” babies or the ones with handicaps that are not suitable for breeding programmes? Where do they go? Are their future owners really that carefully screened? Also, which rabbits would be likely to make better pets and less likely to be abandoned: the ones from a large rabbitry that have had rather little human contact or those that come from a once off litter, pampered and let go with tears in one’s eyes. A lot of rabbits I’ve seen advertised for adoption in British or US shelters seem to be fantastic breeds that could well originate from a knowledgeable breeder rather than from a person producing mutts for their personal enjoyment.
The point I am making is, who are we to say what good or bad is going to come out of breeding rabbits. Why assume these new rabbits will automatically deprive existing rabbits of a chance of being adopted. Perhaps their new owner has never had rabbits before and will fall in love with this particular baby rabbit and be inspired to join a rabbit forum and adopt abandoned rabbits or open a shelter herself. If I hadn’t had those accidental litters over summerI would have never joined up and caught the “rabbit-bug”.
The whole “Becca-Thing” made me very sad. There’s a young girl really enthusiastic about her rabbits and she has to make up all these stories to not be rejected for wanting little baby bunnies. On the other hand if a new member comes on board saying they’ve just bred a litter and more to come, no questions are being asked and his/her intentions are not being scrutinized.
I just had to take this opportunity to express my views and say how sorry I felt for Becca having to keep up the pretence just to be accepted. Being a lot older I can live with being ostracised for my views. I would just hope if I ever did decide to breed any of my rabbits not having to make excuses all around. This is just some food for thought. Sabine

 

[Happi Bun]

Putting two animals together just to have a litter of 'cute babies' is exactly why the rabbit is theTHIRD most abandoned animal here in the US. Backyard breeders as we like to call them. They have no idea about genetics. When you put two rabbits together to breed without knowing their genetics, you are asking for trouble. Deformed or even dead kits, complications that could kill the mother too, illness that has been passed down through generations. I will never support breeding that doesn't improve the species. Breeding that justcreates more rabbits to this world so the HUMAN can go through the experience.

Just my two cents.

 

[Jess_sully]

:yeahthat:
Once you breed two rabbits, they are more likely to have hormonal-driven bad behavior such as forgetting litterbox habits, spraying urine, cage aggressiveness, etc.
Pet rabbits should be spayed or neutered in order to improve behavior and health, and most importantly, to prevent cancer.
Pregnancy is very harsh on the female's body, and if the breeding is for no reason, why put her through the stress? What if something happened during the pregnancy? Can you afford high medical bills? What if she dies during birth? What if the kits die? Most rabbits aren't good first moms and often lose their first litter. Could you stand to see a little nestbox full of dead babies? Would you just breed again? What if during mating one (or both) is injured?
And above all, what if everything goes well and you can't find homes for the babies?
Also, breeding rabbits casually just promotes it. Not all backyard breeders know what they are doing- and many end up contributing to the high number of homeless rabbits.
It's just not worth it, in my opinion. Too many "what ifs" and bad outcomes.

 

[Luvmyzoocrew]

"I" think why alot of people are upset with Becca , besides the lying part, is the fact that this isnt the first time she put her rabbits together, and the money issue. Although she says her parents are willing to pay, past threads by her dont agree with that. Her parents , up to this point, were not willing to pay for vet care for any of her rabbits, they wouldnt pay for the spueters or vaccines, or vet care. So when she comes in here and says that she purposely put her rabbits together for a litter, with all the other things doing with the age of the one and the size difference, yes everyone is upset. Are her parents really going to pay? who knows. Would they have paid for the spueters and vacs? who knows we were just going off what Becca was telling us.



Sabine Bearing in mind that these possible litters would get the best care possible and the most carefully chosen prospective owners<<<<< If there will be no vet care in an emergency because of m oney then they arent getting the best possible care. From reading the size difference and age factors are also irresponsible, so that is not giving them the best possible care.



Just my 2 cents worth.............. again i am going off of memory,lol which sometimes fails me lol, so i am hoping that i am right with the age and size difference and not thinking of something else i read.

 

[Sabine]

Happi Bun wrote:

Putting two animals together just to have a litter of 'cute babies' is exactly why the rabbit is theTHIRD most abandoned animal here in the US. Backyard breeders as we like to call them. They have no idea about genetics. When you put two rabbits together to breed without knowing their genetics, you are asking for trouble. Deformed or even dead kits, complications that could kill the mother too, illness that has been passed down through generations. I will never support breeding that doesn't improve the species. Breeding that justcreates more rabbits to this world so the HUMAN can go through the experience.

Just my two cents.

Dear happibun, just a few points about your post: In Ireland,most breeders would probably be what many call disparagingly "backyard breeders" a term I somewhat resent. Sur eour rabbits probably don't meet many standards yet you will find it hard to adopt an abandoned rabbit (trust me I have tried and even had ads up to that effect) So how can that be?
Furthermore, when you say improving the species, are you talking about the rabbit species as such or a particular breed? I can't quite see how improving particular trade mark of a breed can be a valid reason for breeding several litters when bringing joy into a person's life is not good enough.
What exactly improves the species. From my rudimentary knowledge of genetic I remember that breeding closely related creatures is more likely to cause genetic defects than breeding more distantly related ones, Especially when you consider ailments past down through generations. Unless you do something silly like breeding a Nethie doe with a Flemish buck.... Birth is not a medical occurence but a natural process more than likely to be positive than negative. In what way would breeders be less likely to encounter these problems.
That whole "improve the species" thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, like saying some life is worth more than other

 

[polly]

So you live in Ireland with no abandoned bunnies and Becca lives in England where there are huge amounts of abadoned buns.

Since this is obviously going to keep coming up I am going to give you MY reasons as to why I did not agree with Becca breeding her rabbits. 1 She is 13 years old she has school and other commitments. 2 I asked her why she wanted to breed and her reason was her dad said she could. to me that is not a great reason for bringing extra animals into the world. I also said maybe go with her family to shows if she was keen to breed and she did say that she was the only one that was into the rabbits and her dad had said she could breed them but not keep any of the babies. SO what then happens if homes cannot be found for all of them and she isn't allowed to keep them? Becca is not an adult so her parents can over rule her if they want to! WHat is she going to do if her doe dies in labour or is having problems and her mum is saying in a minute?

Most babies with "handicaps" do not always survive for a start. And I think you will find that most breeders with several litters on the go will spend more time out in their sheds tending to their rabbits than doing much else. Majority of babies will pass between the hands of other breeders who are known rather than people who are not known to breed. I will only very selectively sell any of my babies as pets and even with several litters on the go still have and find the time to vet people out!!

My babies are handled every day from birth as they get old enough they are trained to pose wich is made as fun and a stretch of the legs and a play for them. the bucks are out getting groomed and posed which they love as attention and getting all brushed. I think if you looked at breeders who breed for show and look at your backyard pet breeders you will see who has the happier rabbits! The does are alwasy handled to as it makes it easier to go into their hutches when they have their litters. ANd yes they do actually get time out to run maybe not as much as someoen with 2 3 or 4 rabbits but you come look in my shed none of my rabbits are unhappy they come for kisses like pets they have cuddles like pets they binky like pets.

On another hand as we breeders take so much flak you will find a lot would cull rather than let people have them that will breed them willy nilly as pets when we already know they are not good enough because of certain traits they are carrying that are not good.

I think you should really take a few trips go to some breeders in different areas (like go to the other part of Ireland where the rabbit shows are held) and actually find out what you are talking about.

 

[Becca]

Noooo No No NOO

Sabine I don't want to be mean or rude but I was really trying to forget about this and move on.

Now its just making everyone argue and get mad again :cry1::cry1:

 

[Sabine]

Dear Fran, I guess Becca's lying didn't bother me that much because it was so obvious and I never believed a word from the start. I did get somewhat tedious though listening to more and more excuses why the animals couldn't be speutered. I got the impression that money wasn't the issue but that it was held off for the reasons Becca admitted herself. i thought both rabbits where the same breed and age (under a year) and if vet bills can be paid after all I can't see a problem (I wish my son was breeding rabbits rather than trying to grow cannabis)

 

[polly]

Becca unfortunately this has come up while its your rabbits we have been talking about it could have just as easily come up when someoen else did teh same thing. It is not the first and will not be the last time we have something like this happen on the forum don't stress everyone is allowed their opinion. But perhaps after this thread has died we can go on instead of keepign dwellign over it as its not very fair on Becca

 

[slavetoabunny]

Without doing any of my own research, I'll accept your statement as fact that there is not a rabbit overpopulation problem in Ireland or the UK. When reading the posts to Becca regarding breeding, please consider that most of us are in the US and we have a severe problem here. I do rescue work and foster. In our rescue alone, we have approximately 110 rabbits in foster right now. This is a mere fraction of the number of homeless rabbits in the US.

I chose to refrain from making any comments on Becca's threads because I felt that they would not be productive and also I like Becca and respect her feelings.

Thank you for pointing out that the situation in your geographic area may be much different than what we are experiencing here.

 

[Sabine]

Becca wrote:

Noooo No No NOO

Sabine I don't want to be mean or rude but I was really trying to forget about this and move on.

Now its just making everyone argue and get mad again :cry1::cry1:

Sorry becca, it was kind of sparked off by you but it could have well been me. Except that at the moment I haven't go the time and resources to breed. Let them argue with me I take it

 

[irishbunny]

I back Sabine up on everything she is saying because I live in the same country, I was also looking to re-home an abandoned bunny but couldn't get one. Also in Ireland you will find nearly all breeders are what ye call ''backyard breeders'', an expersson I also don't like. Most people here look at bunnies for their cuteness rather then breed.

 

[polly]

Iwould like to point out the same is not applicable to the UK and we do have over population problems

 

[Sabine]

slavetoabunny wrote:

Without doing any of my own research, I'll accept your statement as fact that there is not a rabbit overpopulation problem in Ireland or the UK. When reading the posts to Becca regarding breeding, please consider that most of us are in the US and we have a severe problem here. I do rescue work and foster. In our rescue alone, we have approximately 110 rabbits in foster right now. This is a mere fraction of the number of homeless rabbits in the US.

I chose to refrain from making any comments on Becca's threads because I felt that they would not be productive and also I like Becca and respect her feelings.

Thank you for pointing out that the situation in your geographic area may be much different than what we are experiencing here.

I would have loved to have adopted a rabbit. I think though there is quite a difference between Ireland and Great Britain as regards rabbits

 

[Sabine]

irishbunny wrote:

I back Sabine up on everything she is saying because I live in the same country, I was also looking to re-home an abandoned bunny but couldn't get one. Also in Ireland you will find nearly all breeders are what ye call ''backyard breeders'', an expersson I also don't like. Most people here look at bunnies for their cuteness rather then breed.

Thanks, I was beginning to feel like a freak

 

[paul2641]

I think Sabine is right. There is nothing wrong with pet owners breeding. Because every breeder starts out a pet owner am I correct ? Oh I don't think becca did anything wrong. Because she was told her parents would pay vet bills.

 

[Happi Bun]

Sabine wrote:

Happi Bun wrote:

Putting two animals together just to have a litter of 'cute babies' is exactly why the rabbit is theTHIRD most abandoned animal here in the US. Backyard breeders as we like to call them. They have no idea about genetics. When you put two rabbits together to breed without knowing their genetics, you are asking for trouble. Deformed or even dead kits, complications that could kill the mother too, illness that has been passed down through generations. I will never support breeding that doesn't improve the species. Breeding that justcreates more rabbits to this world so the HUMAN can go through the experience.

Just my two cents.

Dear happibun, just a few points about your post: In Ireland,most breeders would probably be what many call disparagingly "backyard breeders" a term I somewhat resent. Sur eour rabbits probably don't meet many standards yet you will find it hard to adopt an abandoned rabbit (trust me I have tried and even had ads up to that effect) So how can that be?
Furthermore, when you say improving the species, are you talking about the rabbit species as such or a particular breed? I can't quite see how improving particular trade mark of a breed can be a valid reason for breeding several litters when bringing joy into a person's life is not good enough.
What exactly improves the species. From my rudimentary knowledge of genetic I remember that breeding closely related creatures is more likely to cause genetic defects than breeding more distantly related ones, Especially when you consider ailments past down through generations. Unless you do something silly like breeding a Nethie doe with a Flemish buck.... Birth is not a medical occurence but a natural process more than likely to be positive than negative. In what way would breeders be less likely to encounter these problems.
That whole "improve the species" thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, like saying some life is worth more than other

Improving the species... It means you aren't just throwing two rabbits together without knowing their genetic history because theyhave calm personalties, look pretty, and you want to experience having baby rabbits in your house. It means you KNOW their genetic history thus producing animals that will live a healthylife without serious genetic faults.

When breeding two animals of unknown genetics (like Becca was going to do) you are risking the LIFE of the doe, the life of the kits and their future happiness. I have seen what happens when you want to breed to have the 'joy' but you lack the genetic knowledge and experience. Animal's die... they suffer... all because the human wanted to 'joy' of putting two rabbits together for a one time litter.

If someone wants to have a one time litter, fine. But do it responsibly. Know the animals genetic backgrounds. Prepare and expect that the worst can happen to the mom and babies. Otherwise I cannot and will not support or encourage such actions.

 

[Sabine]

Dear Polly, sorry for not quoting your post as the thread becomes hard to read, that's what I meant by not wanting to offend any genuine breeders and I have offended you I can tell. My apologies. The comparison I drew was simply to illustrate that someone breeding rabbits (say one litter) as pets is not necessarily creating more unhappy buns than an established breeder. I do like the picture of your set up but I've seen different but don't want to point at any particular location for obvious reasons.

 

[irishbunny]

I think Sabine, that rabbits and breeding is just done in a total different way to US and it's difficult to understand eachother.

 

[polly]

paul2641 wrote:

I think Sabine is right. There is nothing wrong with pet owners breeding. Because every breeder starts out a pet owner am I correct ? Oh I don't think becca did anything wrong. Because she was told her parents would pay vet bills.

No I am a pet owner I own 5 "pet rabbits" and a "pet" dog would I breed with them? No because they are pets and they are "speutered" because I would not want to breed them because they are pets. 2 are pets because of labours going wrong and were breeding rabbits. the other 3 do not have traits that would be good for breeding ie teeth issues on 2 of them which you would not want to breed through and do not always show up by the time you would sell a rabbit on as a baby. the other one was bought specifically as a pet rabbit.

As an aside a lot of breeders do not pass a rabbit on until it is 6 months plus to other breeders but any baby that does not show the right qualities would be sold on as a pet. A breeder would not sell on a show/ breeding quality rabbit as a pet.

I do not agree with the term back yard breeder as you could argue that anyone with rabbits in their back yard who breed are back yard breeders But this is where we are trying to explain if you get 2 rabbits out of a pet shop they are either from people who are breeding litter after litter without giving the doe a rest so then the babies suffer the consequences OR they are from a breedr who does not think they for whatever reason thinks they have the right traits to pass on through breeding.

However seeing as you do not have rabbit overpopulation in Ireland perhaps your breeders are different