FelipesMommy
Well-Known Member
Felipe has both. We will be starting him on antibiotics and probably a diet change (not sure what yet). I'm SO glad I paid attention to the little signs and got him in quickly. Any advice?
UTI/sludge
- Thread starter FelipesMommy
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tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Lots of water, sub-q fluids if the vet says so, some meds can be given to help with kidney function if that's the cause, and some cranberry--a few drops in a second water bowl would be good.
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
FelipesMommy wrote:
felipe,,thats cute,--giving oral antibiotics,,also give probiotics(benebac)-,offer lots of grasses and water,//..bladder sludge,,check/change poop box daily-,there is a proceedure for flushing out the bladder,..has there been any radiograghs for stones.??--any cultures for urinary tract bacteria.??--behavior is one of the best tip off/heads up of a problem--good job,,sincerely james waller:big wink:
FelipesMommy:
My rabbit Floppsy had the same problems. We kept bringing her in and they would put her on antibiotics and changed her diet to just greens. Well, she had a chronic problem with it, even not eating pellets. Well, they finally flushed her out, and we only give her greens still. She has not had any trouble in over a year since they flushed her. There is hope.
My rabbit Floppsy had the same problems. We kept bringing her in and they would put her on antibiotics and changed her diet to just greens. Well, she had a chronic problem with it, even not eating pellets. Well, they finally flushed her out, and we only give her greens still. She has not had any trouble in over a year since they flushed her. There is hope.
Some of these articles may help ; some sludge problems may occur from minerals in the water or there may be a predisposition for it.
it doesn't hurt to cut down on calcium rich foods and give a timothy pellet rather than an alfalfa one
timothy/grass type hay rather than alfalfa hay
there is alot of controversy over causes and more controversy over making the calcium level so low that it will affect bone
lots to learn
As Pipp said additional fluids is really really important.
here are our library articles
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12052&forum_id=10
it doesn't hurt to cut down on calcium rich foods and give a timothy pellet rather than an alfalfa one
timothy/grass type hay rather than alfalfa hay
there is alot of controversy over causes and more controversy over making the calcium level so low that it will affect bone
lots to learn
As Pipp said additional fluids is really really important.
here are our library articles
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12052&forum_id=10
thank you for the reply. She has been doing great since I took her off the pellets. We are in the process of changing their food to OXBow Basic T pellets (Timmothy Hay), but I don't know if I want to chance the pellets with her. I am changing the pellets from Purina Show rabbits to the oxbow, because two of the rabbits have a problem with lose fecal matter that sticks to them, so the vet said to try the timmothy hay pellets. Thanks.
the timothy pellets should make a difference healthwise because Purina Show is a very high protein pellet.
Usually a bun on this type of pellet ( alfalfa) will not easily transition to a timothy pellet because to a rabbit alfalfa is tastier.
You may need to mix the 2 types of pellets tegether for awhile and also reduce the amount of them to get your rabbits to eat the timothy.
my rabbits used to pick the alfalfa pellets out and leave the timothy but I reduced the daily ration to such a small amount that they were happy to get any kind lof pellet.
Good Luck !
Usually a bun on this type of pellet ( alfalfa) will not easily transition to a timothy pellet because to a rabbit alfalfa is tastier.
You may need to mix the 2 types of pellets tegether for awhile and also reduce the amount of them to get your rabbits to eat the timothy.
my rabbits used to pick the alfalfa pellets out and leave the timothy but I reduced the daily ration to such a small amount that they were happy to get any kind lof pellet.
Good Luck !
dixonsrabbitry1
Well-Known Member
purina show is not a high protein pellet. It only has about 15-16% which is ideal for most rabbits. Go any lower, and you end up having problems. Any higher, and you also have problems. It is one of the best brands on the market that is low in protein, and very high in fiber. used to feed it to my show rabbits before I switched to fiber 3. never had any problems. I feed limited amounts of alfalfa based pellets to all of my rabbits. From my production animals, to my pets. yes, even my house rabbits ate it when I kept them inside. have never once had any issues with bladder sludge. My rabbits eat a half a cup to a cup of pellets per day. they range from 4-10 pounds. No veggies or greens at all, and they get a good farm grown grass hay.
i would say the rabbits diet would be what is causing the problems. trying cutting back on any veggies(if the bunny is getting any) increase its pellet intake to what it will clean up in a day, and balance that off with some good quality grass hay. The bladder sludge problems should go away completely.
A small rabbit that weighs under 4 pounds should eat no less then a half a cup a day. anything larger should get about a cup a day, depending on the rabbit. Everything else should be fed as treats, and in moderation with the pellets.
If you are feeding purina show, it is an excellent pellet, and source of nutrition for a rabbit. It is a very balanced pellet. I esp like the new formula since they have made it corn free.
i would say the rabbits diet would be what is causing the problems. trying cutting back on any veggies(if the bunny is getting any) increase its pellet intake to what it will clean up in a day, and balance that off with some good quality grass hay. The bladder sludge problems should go away completely.
A small rabbit that weighs under 4 pounds should eat no less then a half a cup a day. anything larger should get about a cup a day, depending on the rabbit. Everything else should be fed as treats, and in moderation with the pellets.
If you are feeding purina show, it is an excellent pellet, and source of nutrition for a rabbit. It is a very balanced pellet. I esp like the new formula since they have made it corn free.
dixonsrabbitry1
Well-Known Member
Since I can't edit, any time you feed alfalfa based pellets it should be balanced with a good grass hay, like grassy alfalfa, timothy, or orchard grass. If you do end up feeding something like alfalfa with it, it should be done in small amounts every day. it will help prevent the calcium build up problems. at least that is what I have learned from other pet owners and experienced breeders.
Happi Bun
Well-Known Member
I think switching to Oxbow Timothy Pellets is an excellent idea. Many factors can come into play when dealing with bladder sludge and UTI. I had a young rabbit start experiencing symptoms of bladder sludge, he was being fed alfalfa pellets and timothy hay available at all times. After switching him slowly to Timothy the problem completely corrected itself. I believe some bunnies are more prone/sensitive to excess calcium in their diet.
This link you may find helpful. The House Rabbit Society's recommendations and experience on bladder sludge.
http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html
I'm going to copy and paste their list of treatment/prevention below;
· TREATMENT AND PREVENTION OF BLADDER STONES OR SLUDGE
Although there is no guarantee that urinary tract stones or sludge will not return after treatment, you can greatly reduce your pet's chances of dealing with a recurrence by using the following suggestions.
· Increase water consumption. I consider this to be the most important factor in the prevention of the reoccurrence of bladder stones and sludge. If the urine is kept dilute, the possibility of stone or sludge formation is dramatically decreased. Feeding fresh leafy greens that are still wet from washing will help increase water intake (See note on this below). Adding a natural sweetener, not refined sugar, to the drinking water will encourage your pet to drink considerably more. Natural fruit juices with no added sugars, or honey, are an excellent flavoring choice. Test various juice flavors by administering them directly to your rabbit undiluted in a syringe. If your pet takes the juice willingly then try adding it to the drinking water. Record how much water is consumed daily by your pet (this is easy with sipper bottles as they are often marked in ounces on the outside). Use fresh flavored water daily and gradually decrease the amount of flavoring until you see that the rabbit decreases its water consumption. At this point, increase the flavoring just enough to increase water consumption again and continue to use that amount of flavoring daily. Some flavorings that people have reported success with include pineapple, grape, apple and cherry juice and apricot, peach or pear nectar and honey.
· Remove commercial food (pellets)/alfalfa hay from the diet. As discussed previously in this article the level of calcium in the diet is not the primary factor in causing urinary calculi. However, excessive amounts of calcium above and beyond what the pet needs on a daily basis may add to the calcium content of the urine and be a problem in a rabbit that is already experiencing urinary calculi. Commercial rabbit diets that are alfalfa based are packed with digestible calcium and I recommend removing them from the diet. Alfalfa hay also has very high digestible calcium content and should be removed. The recommended diet for a house rabbit is grass hay (e.g. timothy,oat, or orchard grass hay) along with large amounts of fresh leafy greens, and some smaller amounts of fruits and other vegetables. If pellets are to be fed, they should be grass hay based.
· Feed large amounts of fresh leafy greens. Fresh leafy greens are not only an excellent source of fluid for the rabbit (to keep the urine dilute) but also contain a variety of nutrients (including vitamin C) and fiber (for the digestive tract). Use dark leafy greens that are richer in nutrients than the pale green types. Feed a minimum of three different types of greens daily. Donâ°Â¥Ãºt stick to just one type. Examples of greens to feed include kale, mustard greens, dandelion greens, parsley, cilantro, chard, beet tops, carrot tops, raspberry leaves, broccoli leaves, and romaine lettuce.
As mentioned previously, although the calcium content of dark leafy greens is higher than some other foods, it is not all digestible and doesn't approach the level of commercial alfalfa-based pellets or alfalfa hay. NEVER attempt to remove all calcium sources from a rabbit's diet or problems with abnormally low calcium blood levels, such as bone, dental and muscle disease can occur. I do not consider feeding dark leafy greens a part of the problem causing urinary calculi, and, in fact, I consider these foods to be an essential part of a healthy rabbit diet. I do not restrict the type of leafy green based on calcium content.
· Exercise. Exercise is extremely important to cause the rabbit to urinate more frequently, moves the urine around in the bladder and keeps it mixed instead of stagnant, as well as causing the rabbit to consume more water. In addition to helping with the urinary problem, exercise helps to strengthen bones and improve the rabbit's mental attitude.
· Routine veterinary checkups. It is necessary to follow up your pet's progress with routine rechecks with your veterinarian. A urinalysis should be performed several times during the first few weeks after surgery or catheterization to detect any infection or increase in mineral formation. A physical examination should be performed post-surgically to evaluate healing of the bladder and abdomen. Radiographs should be performed within six months initial treatment to look for the return of stones or sludge in the urinary tract. Please follow your veterinarian's recommendations on recheck visits.
This link you may find helpful. The House Rabbit Society's recommendations and experience on bladder sludge.
http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html
I'm going to copy and paste their list of treatment/prevention below;
· TREATMENT AND PREVENTION OF BLADDER STONES OR SLUDGE
Although there is no guarantee that urinary tract stones or sludge will not return after treatment, you can greatly reduce your pet's chances of dealing with a recurrence by using the following suggestions.
· Increase water consumption. I consider this to be the most important factor in the prevention of the reoccurrence of bladder stones and sludge. If the urine is kept dilute, the possibility of stone or sludge formation is dramatically decreased. Feeding fresh leafy greens that are still wet from washing will help increase water intake (See note on this below). Adding a natural sweetener, not refined sugar, to the drinking water will encourage your pet to drink considerably more. Natural fruit juices with no added sugars, or honey, are an excellent flavoring choice. Test various juice flavors by administering them directly to your rabbit undiluted in a syringe. If your pet takes the juice willingly then try adding it to the drinking water. Record how much water is consumed daily by your pet (this is easy with sipper bottles as they are often marked in ounces on the outside). Use fresh flavored water daily and gradually decrease the amount of flavoring until you see that the rabbit decreases its water consumption. At this point, increase the flavoring just enough to increase water consumption again and continue to use that amount of flavoring daily. Some flavorings that people have reported success with include pineapple, grape, apple and cherry juice and apricot, peach or pear nectar and honey.
· Remove commercial food (pellets)/alfalfa hay from the diet. As discussed previously in this article the level of calcium in the diet is not the primary factor in causing urinary calculi. However, excessive amounts of calcium above and beyond what the pet needs on a daily basis may add to the calcium content of the urine and be a problem in a rabbit that is already experiencing urinary calculi. Commercial rabbit diets that are alfalfa based are packed with digestible calcium and I recommend removing them from the diet. Alfalfa hay also has very high digestible calcium content and should be removed. The recommended diet for a house rabbit is grass hay (e.g. timothy,oat, or orchard grass hay) along with large amounts of fresh leafy greens, and some smaller amounts of fruits and other vegetables. If pellets are to be fed, they should be grass hay based.
· Feed large amounts of fresh leafy greens. Fresh leafy greens are not only an excellent source of fluid for the rabbit (to keep the urine dilute) but also contain a variety of nutrients (including vitamin C) and fiber (for the digestive tract). Use dark leafy greens that are richer in nutrients than the pale green types. Feed a minimum of three different types of greens daily. Donâ°Â¥Ãºt stick to just one type. Examples of greens to feed include kale, mustard greens, dandelion greens, parsley, cilantro, chard, beet tops, carrot tops, raspberry leaves, broccoli leaves, and romaine lettuce.
As mentioned previously, although the calcium content of dark leafy greens is higher than some other foods, it is not all digestible and doesn't approach the level of commercial alfalfa-based pellets or alfalfa hay. NEVER attempt to remove all calcium sources from a rabbit's diet or problems with abnormally low calcium blood levels, such as bone, dental and muscle disease can occur. I do not consider feeding dark leafy greens a part of the problem causing urinary calculi, and, in fact, I consider these foods to be an essential part of a healthy rabbit diet. I do not restrict the type of leafy green based on calcium content.
· Exercise. Exercise is extremely important to cause the rabbit to urinate more frequently, moves the urine around in the bladder and keeps it mixed instead of stagnant, as well as causing the rabbit to consume more water. In addition to helping with the urinary problem, exercise helps to strengthen bones and improve the rabbit's mental attitude.
· Routine veterinary checkups. It is necessary to follow up your pet's progress with routine rechecks with your veterinarian. A urinalysis should be performed several times during the first few weeks after surgery or catheterization to detect any infection or increase in mineral formation. A physical examination should be performed post-surgically to evaluate healing of the bladder and abdomen. Radiographs should be performed within six months initial treatment to look for the return of stones or sludge in the urinary tract. Please follow your veterinarian's recommendations on recheck visits.
LV426
Well-Known Member
Unless you are a certified rabbit nutritionist or the vet gives you a definite list of fresh greens to feed your rabbit I don't recommend that you try to remove all pellets from your rabbit's diet. It is very difficult to provide a good balanced diet for a rabbit on just vegetation alone.
Since your rabbit does need increased water try giving him a bowl to drink from and not a bottle. Rabbits drink more from a bowl and it's easier for them to obtain the water rather than licking at a bottle. If you add any type of fruit juices or sweeteners to your rabbit's water you need to wash the container out twice a day to prevent bacteria build up which can be fatal to your rabbit.
Since your rabbit does need increased water try giving him a bowl to drink from and not a bottle. Rabbits drink more from a bowl and it's easier for them to obtain the water rather than licking at a bottle. If you add any type of fruit juices or sweeteners to your rabbit's water you need to wash the container out twice a day to prevent bacteria build up which can be fatal to your rabbit.
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I want to add that what Dixonsrabbitry says may not apply very well to a bunny kept indoors and not used for breeding. Bunnies that are kept in areas that are not as temperature-controlled as a house with heat and AC need extra protein and calories. An adult house bunny really only needs 14% protein.
Removing alfalfa-based pellets and replacing them with a timothy pellet may help because of the calcium
hosphorus ratio.
Removing alfalfa-based pellets and replacing them with a timothy pellet may help because of the calcium
hosphorus ratio.LV426
Well-Known Member
I'm confused as to why you would think that a rabbit that is kept indoors would need less protein. Standard rabbit protein is 15%-16% for most rabbits to ensure proper muscle maintenance and nutritional needs. The only time I would ever reduce the protein is if a vet told you directly to reduce the protein because of a kidney issue or other health issue. Caloric intake can be controlled using less pellets but the percentage of protein shouldn't be modified unless specified by a certified vet.
Without even knowing what this rabbit's existing diet from the pellets, treats, and other additives there's no way of telling if this rabbit is getting too much protein or calcium. Cutting back on both can cause serious health problems.
If you are concerned about calcium you can have your vet run a check on the calcium levels of your rabbit. Feeding certain foods can actually block the absorption of calcium in the diet which is then passed out in the feces. It is only excess calcium that is absorbed into the rabbit and then eliminated that ends up passing through the kidneys and bladder.
Several studies have been done and no conclusive evidence was shown that bladder sludge and stones can be remedied through diet alone.
Changing to the all timothy pellet won't hurt at all but I wouldn't expect it to be a cure all.
As a side note about your loose stools, it is common in rabbits being fed a diet of mainly greens and veggies that their stools will become looser and even quite runny and sticky. Some rabbits can't tolerate vegetation the way others can so I would look at those as the cause before I would blame the pellets.
Without even knowing what this rabbit's existing diet from the pellets, treats, and other additives there's no way of telling if this rabbit is getting too much protein or calcium. Cutting back on both can cause serious health problems.
If you are concerned about calcium you can have your vet run a check on the calcium levels of your rabbit. Feeding certain foods can actually block the absorption of calcium in the diet which is then passed out in the feces. It is only excess calcium that is absorbed into the rabbit and then eliminated that ends up passing through the kidneys and bladder.
Several studies have been done and no conclusive evidence was shown that bladder sludge and stones can be remedied through diet alone.
Changing to the all timothy pellet won't hurt at all but I wouldn't expect it to be a cure all.
As a side note about your loose stools, it is common in rabbits being fed a diet of mainly greens and veggies that their stools will become looser and even quite runny and sticky. Some rabbits can't tolerate vegetation the way others can so I would look at those as the cause before I would blame the pellets.
dixonsrabbitry1
Well-Known Member
tonyshuman wrote:
Their nutritional requirements are the same. The 14% you suggested is about 15 off from a breeding rabbit, or a pet fed out on pellets would get. Normally its in about the 15-16% range. though there are one or two brands on the market that go as low as 14%. I think nutritional research is one of them. That is a company that produces feed for all aspects of rabbit ownership.
I wouldn't recommend removing the pellets from the diet unless the owner is absolutely 100% sure that the rabbit will be kept in excellent coat and condition(muscle tone) and getting the right amount of nutrition.
Luv, you would be surprised at how many things can be fixed diet wise by increasing pellets and limiting everything else. I doubt the pellets are the problem too. Probably getting too much calcium from something else added to its diet.
Lowering the protein intake for a rabbit like that is very dangerous. House rabbits are no different then breeding rabbits, since they are the same species.I want to add that what Dixonsrabbitry says may not apply very well to a bunny kept indoors and not used for breeding. Bunnies that are kept in areas that are not as temperature-controlled as a house with heat and AC need extra protein and calories. An adult house bunny really only needs 14% protein.
Removing alfalfa-based pellets and replacing them with a timothy pellet may help because of the calcium
Their nutritional requirements are the same. The 14% you suggested is about 15 off from a breeding rabbit, or a pet fed out on pellets would get. Normally its in about the 15-16% range. though there are one or two brands on the market that go as low as 14%. I think nutritional research is one of them. That is a company that produces feed for all aspects of rabbit ownership. I wouldn't recommend removing the pellets from the diet unless the owner is absolutely 100% sure that the rabbit will be kept in excellent coat and condition(muscle tone) and getting the right amount of nutrition.
Luv, you would be surprised at how many things can be fixed diet wise by increasing pellets and limiting everything else.
I doubt the pellets are the problem too. Probably getting too much calcium from something else added to its diet.
Happi Bun
Well-Known Member
LV426 wrote:
Breeding and indoor companion rabbits do have slightly different requirements due their vastly different lifestyles. Breeding rabbits are usually kept outside, the extra protein in their diet helps with added stress of the outdoor environment. Their bodies are under much greater demand, producing babies and breeding.
Oxbow Bunny Basics T, one of the most popular brands recommend for companion rabbits, has a protein of 14 %. I have been feeding it to my bunnies for over a year. They are in excellent condition and I have yet to experience any problems. I honestly have yet to hear anything bad from someone feeding this food to an adult house rabbit. So I find it interesting how some of you think it is so 'dangerous'.
Oxbow themselves recognizes the different in the nutritional needs of breeding rabbits, including on their timothy pellet packages; 'Bunny Basics/T is not intended for growing, gestating, or lactating rabbits. We recommend Bunny Basics 15/23 (alfalfa) during these stages of your rabbit's life.'
I've seen the same in rabbits fed too many pellets, both options should be looked into.
Breeding and indoor companion rabbits do have slightly different requirements due their vastly different lifestyles. Breeding rabbits are usually kept outside, the extra protein in their diet helps with added stress of the outdoor environment. Their bodies are under much greater demand, producing babies and breeding.
Oxbow Bunny Basics T, one of the most popular brands recommend for companion rabbits, has a protein of 14 %. I have been feeding it to my bunnies for over a year. They are in excellent condition and I have yet to experience any problems. I honestly have yet to hear anything bad from someone feeding this food to an adult house rabbit. So I find it interesting how some of you think it is so 'dangerous'.
Oxbow themselves recognizes the different in the nutritional needs of breeding rabbits, including on their timothy pellet packages; 'Bunny Basics/T is not intended for growing, gestating, or lactating rabbits. We recommend Bunny Basics 15/23 (alfalfa) during these stages of your rabbit's life.'
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Like Erika said, the nutritional requirements of indoor versus outdoor rabbits differ because of lifestyle. Maintaining the correct body temperature takes calories, as does breeding and growing. Indoor adult rabbits do not need to regulate their own body temperature because the environment usually stays 68-75 degrees year round. They also are not breeding or growing. This is why indoor adult rabbits only need 14% protein.
It is extremely common for us in the Infirmary, and myself in my own bunnies, to see excess uneaten cecals in bunnies that get too much protein. For instance, if I feed my bunnies their portion of pellets, and later in the day my boyfriend also feeds them a second portion because he thinks I forgot to, they will have uneaten cecals that will mush to their bottoms. Cecal poops have lots of protein in them, so if a rabbit is getting what they need from the pellet alone, they will not eat the cecals.
Loose stools due to vegetables is a totally different thing, and is a sign of digestive upset. I actually have never seen this, despite my boyfriend's desire to try feeding our 4 bunnies every strange vegetable he can find at the grocery store. I know some peoples' bunnies do not tolerate some greens and get mushy fecals from them, but this is pretty rare, and is usually limited to the very high water-content veggies, like some lettuces, or ones that can cause gas, like cabbage.
A main reason to switch to Timothy pellets in a bunny with urinary tract issues is that the calcium: phosphorus ratio in timothy pellets is better for adult rabbits than that found in alfalfa pellets. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the food is important for how the body excretes calcium, ie whether it puts the calcium into the urine, which leads to sludge.
I too feed a 14% protein Timothy based food (Oxbow BBT) for all 4 of my rabbits, all of whom have excellent condition per my vet.
It is extremely common for us in the Infirmary, and myself in my own bunnies, to see excess uneaten cecals in bunnies that get too much protein. For instance, if I feed my bunnies their portion of pellets, and later in the day my boyfriend also feeds them a second portion because he thinks I forgot to, they will have uneaten cecals that will mush to their bottoms. Cecal poops have lots of protein in them, so if a rabbit is getting what they need from the pellet alone, they will not eat the cecals.
Loose stools due to vegetables is a totally different thing, and is a sign of digestive upset. I actually have never seen this, despite my boyfriend's desire to try feeding our 4 bunnies every strange vegetable he can find at the grocery store. I know some peoples' bunnies do not tolerate some greens and get mushy fecals from them, but this is pretty rare, and is usually limited to the very high water-content veggies, like some lettuces, or ones that can cause gas, like cabbage.
A main reason to switch to Timothy pellets in a bunny with urinary tract issues is that the calcium: phosphorus ratio in timothy pellets is better for adult rabbits than that found in alfalfa pellets. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the food is important for how the body excretes calcium, ie whether it puts the calcium into the urine, which leads to sludge.
I too feed a 14% protein Timothy based food (Oxbow BBT) for all 4 of my rabbits, all of whom have excellent condition per my vet.
dixonsrabbitry1
Well-Known Member
Happi Bun wrote:
Ihave never seen it in rabbits fed too many pellets, unless they were junk. I know many, many people that own pets, breed and show rabbits. I have seen it when dealing with pet rabbits that have bed things they shouldn't. Those were rabbits fed the house rabbit diet. Not fun breaking a skinny rabbit from eating them when it refuses to eat pellets, and hay because it was addicted to vegetables and greens.
Do you have any experience with breeding rabbits at all? I have raised and kept rabbits for both companion animals and as show animals for about twenty yearsand this first that I have heard that pet house rabbits require less protein then breeding rabbits do. I also know people that work in rescue, and I have never heard it from them either. If you do have experience with breeding rabbits, and not just pets,I would like to know more about this.
Most breeding rabbits are kept indoors. Albeit in the house, or out in barn. Some are allowed time outside of the cage, others aren't.Still, its *inside.* Nutritional requirements are no different then those kept outdoors in hutches. The same with pet rabbits too.
I took a look at the feeds mentioned on this site. 14% is only about a 1% difference then what breeding rabbits are fed. IMHO its a little low, but still not much different then what a breeding rabbit requires. I also tend to see a trend with pet rabbits fed on the pet food brands that have the low protein. Not just here but on other pet websites too. Most of it is elsewhere. The rabbits are fed these feeds, plus a lot of greens and veggies,a nd they seem to have gi and dental problems. Something I have only seen with mine if there was a toxin in the feed. The only dental issues I have seen were either genetic, or the rabbit pulled its teeth on the wire. There seems to be plenty of pet rabbits that end up with molar spurs, and gi stasis. Things that breeders and pet owners that feed a pellet based diet generally do not see at all.
As far as timothy pellets, just because your rabbits do well on them, doesn't mean someone elses will. Pelletbrand wise, what works for one, doesn't always work for the other. The rabbit may end up not doing well on them, and may even refuse to eat them. I tried oxbow when it first came out. There were breeders feeding it in my area. A lot of rabbits refused to eat it, including mine. I have had people tell me(both breeders and pet owners) they ended up switching off because they felt the rabbits weren't conditioned well from it.
Ihave never seen it in rabbits fed too many pellets, unless they were junk. I know many, many people that own pets, breed and show rabbits. I have seen it when dealing with pet rabbits that have bed things they shouldn't. Those were rabbits fed the house rabbit diet. Not fun breaking a skinny rabbit from eating them when it refuses to eat pellets, and hay because it was addicted to vegetables and greens.
Do you have any experience with breeding rabbits at all? I have raised and kept rabbits for both companion animals and as show animals for about twenty yearsand this first that I have heard that pet house rabbits require less protein then breeding rabbits do. I also know people that work in rescue, and I have never heard it from them either. If you do have experience with breeding rabbits, and not just pets,I would like to know more about this.
Most breeding rabbits are kept indoors. Albeit in the house, or out in barn. Some are allowed time outside of the cage, others aren't.Still, its *inside.* Nutritional requirements are no different then those kept outdoors in hutches. The same with pet rabbits too.
I took a look at the feeds mentioned on this site. 14% is only about a 1% difference then what breeding rabbits are fed. IMHO its a little low, but still not much different then what a breeding rabbit requires. I also tend to see a trend with pet rabbits fed on the pet food brands that have the low protein. Not just here but on other pet websites too. Most of it is elsewhere. The rabbits are fed these feeds, plus a lot of greens and veggies,a nd they seem to have gi and dental problems. Something I have only seen with mine if there was a toxin in the feed. The only dental issues I have seen were either genetic, or the rabbit pulled its teeth on the wire. There seems to be plenty of pet rabbits that end up with molar spurs, and gi stasis. Things that breeders and pet owners that feed a pellet based diet generally do not see at all.
As far as timothy pellets, just because your rabbits do well on them, doesn't mean someone elses will. Pelletbrand wise, what works for one, doesn't always work for the other. The rabbit may end up not doing well on them, and may even refuse to eat them. I tried oxbow when it first came out. There were breeders feeding it in my area. A lot of rabbits refused to eat it, including mine. I have had people tell me(both breeders and pet owners) they ended up switching off because they felt the rabbits weren't conditioned well from it.
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-4/pellets.html
http://www.sandiegorabbits.org/diet/rabbit_GI_physiology.html
http://www.ontariorabbits.org/diet/dietinfo2.html
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/diet.html
http://www.mybunny.org/info/rabbit_nutrition.htm
And in case you don't trust anything put out by people associated with HRS:
http://www.asas.org/jas/jas0942.pdf
http://www.sandiegorabbits.org/diet/rabbit_GI_physiology.html
http://www.ontariorabbits.org/diet/dietinfo2.html
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/diet.html
http://www.mybunny.org/info/rabbit_nutrition.htm
And in case you don't trust anything put out by people associated with HRS:
http://www.asas.org/jas/jas0942.pdf
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I have never seen a rabbit "addicted to vegetables and greens". My bunnies like veggies, but they also love hay and pellets. So do all the bunnies at the shelter. I have seen bunnies that will only eat pellets, not hay or greens, and they have been severely obese and didn't eat their cecal poos.
One does not have to have experience with breeding rabbits to know that a rabbit that must regulate its own body temperature, or one that is growing, lactating, or pregnant has a higher caloric requirement. Since we do not give starch as a source of calories often in rabbits due to its detrimental effect on gut flora, you increase the calories in their diet by increasing protein.
Bunnies kept for breeding are usually kept not in an air-conditioned house where people live. It is not kept constant at 65-75 degrees throughout the year, like most people's houses. Increasing your body temp in the winter and cooling off in the summer requires calories.
None of my bunnies have dental problems. Most if not all of the bunnies we see in the Infirmary with dental issues have these issues because of genetics. Hay is the major thing that wears down a bunny's teeth, and the way the teeth are positioned in the jaw (genetics) determines how the hay wears them down (evenly or not).
Additionally, many tooth issues only come about at advanced ages, beyond age 6. Most breeders do not keep a large number of rabbits past that age.
One does not have to have experience with breeding rabbits to know that a rabbit that must regulate its own body temperature, or one that is growing, lactating, or pregnant has a higher caloric requirement. Since we do not give starch as a source of calories often in rabbits due to its detrimental effect on gut flora, you increase the calories in their diet by increasing protein.
Bunnies kept for breeding are usually kept not in an air-conditioned house where people live. It is not kept constant at 65-75 degrees throughout the year, like most people's houses. Increasing your body temp in the winter and cooling off in the summer requires calories.
None of my bunnies have dental problems. Most if not all of the bunnies we see in the Infirmary with dental issues have these issues because of genetics. Hay is the major thing that wears down a bunny's teeth, and the way the teeth are positioned in the jaw (genetics) determines how the hay wears them down (evenly or not).
Additionally, many tooth issues only come about at advanced ages, beyond age 6. Most breeders do not keep a large number of rabbits past that age.
dixonsrabbitry1
Well-Known Member
tonyshuman wrote:
Many breeders do add air conditioners, and cooling systems to their barns.I don't because of the risk of fire. But I do rig up something simlar to an irrigation system over the roof during the summer, which works, kind of like a cheap air conditioner. Some install heaters in the winter. Most rabbitry style operations have some typ eof cooling system installed.
Oh god this guy I picked up wa sin horrible shape. the owner fed him lots of greens and vegetables. He picked them over the pelelts and hay. Took me three weeks to get him to touch it. At that point I had to use the starve method by taking away everything else until he got hungry enough to eat the pellets and hay.
I have had many rabbits that have lived to be older then six, and have never had a problem. I have some that are six or seven right now. No tooth issues at all. Many breeders do keep rabbits past that age. Commercial breeders may not, a lot of those that show and keep rabbits(4h, house pets, etc)as pets do.
I keep about a 20-30 hole rabbitry. Nearly half of what I have is made up of older rabbits. Actually lacking cage space beause of it, but these are bunnies that are pets and are here to stay.
Many breeders do add air conditioners, and cooling systems to their barns.I don't because of the risk of fire. But I do rig up something simlar to an irrigation system over the roof during the summer, which works, kind of like a cheap air conditioner. Some install heaters in the winter. Most rabbitry style operations have some typ eof cooling system installed.
Oh god this guy I picked up wa sin horrible shape. the owner fed him lots of greens and vegetables. He picked them over the pelelts and hay. Took me three weeks to get him to touch it. At that point I had to use the starve method by taking away everything else until he got hungry enough to eat the pellets and hay.
I have had many rabbits that have lived to be older then six, and have never had a problem. I have some that are six or seven right now. No tooth issues at all. Many breeders do keep rabbits past that age. Commercial breeders may not, a lot of those that show and keep rabbits(4h, house pets, etc)as pets do.
I keep about a 20-30 hole rabbitry. Nearly half of what I have is made up of older rabbits. Actually lacking cage space beause of it, but these are bunnies that are pets and are here to stay.
