Urinary Problem...Need Advice Now, Please...

[Jenk]

Tonight, my husband observed Zoe straining to urinate. Before that, shepeed a small amount of urine farfrom her box, which is unlike her. She also started lying inside of her litter box (unlike her), and after straining inside of her box, hopped outside and tried to pee on the carpet; she's having bona-fide urinary troubles.

It's 10:15 pm on the eve of July 4th. What can I do to make her more comfy before calling her vet's office first thing tomorrow? (I have Metacam and Banamine but am unsure if either one would relieve the discomfort caused byurinary problems.)

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[Maureen Las]

I am trying to get an answer for you on this by contacting a few people

I know what you mean by things happening the night before a holiday.."story of my life"

just hang in there...

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

I am trying to get an answer for you on this by contacting a few people

I know what you mean by things happening the night before a holiday.."story of my life"

just hang in there...

:hug:Thank you so much, angieluv. I really appreciate any help/advice.

BTW, I just discovered that I'm out of Metacam but still have Banamine. Per the online rabbit-dosage calculator, I can give Zoe a dosage between 0.3 and 2.0 mg. Emma(who weighs 3 lbs.) was prescribed .11 mg of Banamine in the past;I'm guessing thatZoe should stay around the 0.3 mg mark, then, though I don't know how many doses to administer before calling the vet's office at 8 am tomorrow.

Jenk

 

[Pipp]

What color is the pee? Check for stringy reddish bits, that would be blood, or thick white stuff, that would be sludge. Otherwise a urinary tract infection is a good bet.

I wouldn't give her pain meds in case the vet wants to test reactions to palpating, etc.

Giving her cranberry juice would be helpful, as isgetting her to drink as much water as you can. I find warmish water is better tolerated than cold. You can put a crock of diluted juice down as well as a water bottle or crock.

I'd syringe the cranberry if she won't drink it, and add a little apple juice or whatever else she likes to thecrock.

Hope she gets better soon.



sas :clover:

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

What color is the pee? Check for stringy reddish bits, that would be blood, or thick white stuff, that would be sludge. Otherwise a urinary tract infection is a good bet.

I wouldn't give her pain meds in case the vet wants to test reactions to palpating, etc.

Giving her cranberry juice is a good bet, as isgetting her to drink as much water as you can. I find warmish water is better tolerated than cold. You can put a crock of diluted juice down as well as a water bottle or crock.

I'd syringe the cranberry if she won't drink it, and add a little apple juice or whatever else she likes to thecrock.

The pee that she passed outside of her box was light yellow in color; so I, too, am thinking it's a UTI.

If a bun's having trouble passing urine,wouldn't giving extra water likely cause her more pain/discomfort (if the water builds up inside but can't pass out)? Also, I'm not certain if I'm willing to let Zoe go all night in pain for the sake of the vet palpitating her gut tomorrow. Our observation of her straining to pee and whatnot is proof enough of a UTI-related issue.

We don't have any cranberry juice. And while it wouldn't be a problem to get some now, Zoe's many digestive issues make me pause about giving her anything new.

Could greens high in oxalates (dandelion greens and parsley) cause a UTI? Or can only a high calcium level cause sludge, and a bacterial infection cause a UTI?

 

[Pipp]

A fuller bladder is always more comfortable in these cases and the hydration washes out toxins. In humans it hurts a lot more to strain with a trickle than it does to pee with a flow.

Cranberry juice has properties that somehow coats the bladder and prevents yucky infection stuff from sticking to the wall. Or something like that.

Cranberry juice should be fine in the digestive tract because he won't be getting much of it (just like sweetened meds like Metacam) and it's a liquid that won't turn into cecal or fecal matter. If you get pure cranberry or a cranberry fruit mix without sugar, it honestly shouldn't be an issue and it will do more good than harm.



sas :bunnydance:

 

[Haley]

Im so sorry Zoe is having trouble! This stuff always happens in the middle of the night or on holidays

I agree with sas on giving her lots of fluids and a little cranberry juice in some water would help as well.

If it were me, I wouldnt use any Metacam asI know it can put a strain on the kidneys. Im not sure about the Banamine. I guess if you really think shes in pain you could give her a little to help take the edge off.

Just keep her hydtrated. Im sure your vet will want to take a urine sample and get a culture in case its a URI.

One more thing, Is Zoe spayed?

I'll be praying for your girl.

Haley

 

[Maureen Las]

I hope that you can get your vet tomorrow...
I'm sure that she'll probably just need an antibitotic and some fluids

hope that you get through tonite OK



seems like there are several bunny healthproblems going on tonight

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

A fuller bladder is always more comfortable in these cases and the hydration washes out toxins. In humans it hurts a lot more to strain with a trickle than it does to pee with a flow.

Cranberry juice has properties that somehow coats the bladder and prevents yucky infection stuff from sticking to the wall. Or something like that.

Cranberry juice should be fine in the digestive tract because he won't be getting much of it (just like sweetened meds like Metacam) and it's a liquid that won't turn into cecal or fecal matter. If you get pure cranberry or a cranberry fruit mix without sugar, it honestly shouldn't be an issue and it will do more good than harm.

My husband just left for the store to get unsweetened cranberry juice.

Meanwhile, Zoe's won't touch her greens(very unlike her, since she normally dances in circles for them); and I can't get her to take the 0.3 cc's of Banamine that I want to give her to provide at least some comfort for the night. Guess my hubby will need to help me force it down her when he gets home. Poor Zoe...

 

[Pipp]

Urinary Problems

 

[Jenk]

Haley:

I'll syringe feed her fluids tonight (likely having to force them on her). I'll give her a little Banamine (maybe .20 cc's) to, as you've said, take the edge off.

Zoe is spayed, and thank you for the prayers.

angieluv:

It's good to feel less alone, but I truly wish that multiple people weren't going thru bunny health issues--especially on the eve of a holiday.

I will insist that the vet's office seeZoe tomorrow (whichis better for a rush appointment, since Saturdays arehorribly busy). They're also an emergency clinic, so I've no reservations about carting in Zoe as needed. (I've had two delayed appointments due to other pets' emergencies; Zoe's issuemay delay someone else's appointment, but for good reason.)

Since Zoe's not touching her greens, I'm especially worried; she really loves her veggies. Her symptoms happened very fast. She was acting/eating/drinking normally, then gotrestless and started the in-and-out of her litter box dance. And now she won't touch her greens or hay.

Pipp:

Thank you for the links; I've already readmany of themprior to and during my posting about Zoe'scurrent urinary issues.

 

[Pipp]

Diagnosis is difficult, myguess that the vet really is going to need to feel reactions when he/she examines forstones (very much a possibility) in thebladder or urethra, or a tract infection or whatever. I wouldn't give pain meds if you think you can get her in before theywear off.If you do give her some, make surethe vet knows, and don't give her any more after tonight if the office is open tomorrow. :twocents

The fluids should make her feel better.



sas :?

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

Diagnosis is difficult, myguess that the vet really is going to need to feel reactions when he/she examines forstones (very much a possibility) in thebladder or urethra, or a tract infection or whatever. I wouldn't give pain meds if you think you can get her in before theywear off.If you do give her some, make surethe vet knows, and don't give her any more after tonight if the office is open tomorrow. :twocents

The fluids should make her feel better.

Pipp,

I did give her one dose of Banamine (prior to reading your second post about it). She went from lying down and ignoring her greens to at least eating. Don't worry, though: I'll definitely let the vet know about the med. in Zoe's system.

Around 1 am, I syringe-fed her 40 cc's of water; she passed only a spot of urine during the night. I've now given her 30 cc's of water since waking this morning.

I'd told my husband to buy sugar-free cranberry juice. He returned with the only sugar-free kind, which has apple juice as the first ingredient, followed by cranberry, grape and something else....I did dilute some and got maybe half a syringe-full in Zoe; she hated it. Also, for the first time in weeks, she has very few stools, and they're small and sticky. I certainly hope the juice has nothing to do with it....

 

[ra7751]

Hi Jenk,

Sounds like you have issues like we do. No doubt you are right on the mark with a urinary issue. I would suspect sludge and possibly an infection to go along with it. Contrary to the long held notion, there is no proof that high calcium intake causes sludge....some rabbits are just prone to these issues as some people (like your truly) are prone the kidney stones even though we eat and drink the right things. I would suspect your vet would palpitate the gut and do an x-ray as sludge shows up beautifully in an x-ray. Lots of hydration is in order. You vet will probably administer a large amount of fluids either sub-q or IV. Pain meds are a must. The NSAIDS (like metacam, banamine, etc.)are all very tough on the kidneys especially if there is any dehydration at all. They should be used only under the direction of a vet.

And a huge warning...and this is not meant for you personally Jenk as it's for everyone....DO NOT PLAY WITH DOSING DRUGS UNLESS YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND HOW TO FORMULATE THEM!!!!! There are many drug calculator sites available now. The standard dosing of Banamine is .3-2.0 mg/kg. That "kg"... means that dosing is for each kilogram of weight. That dosing then has to be divided by the concentration of the drug. This is crucial as many drugs come in different concentrations. If the drug is compounded....like the vet making a tablet into a suspension....the concentration is totally up to the compounding tech. I can make the strength of any compound anything I want it to be and that has to be taken into consideration when dosing. Even manufactured drugs come in different concentrations....metacam comes in 3 different concentrations .5mg/ml, 1.5mg/ml and 5mg/ml. If someone has the .5mg/ml and gives .3cc and you have the 5 and give the same .3cc, you have given 10 times the drug as the first person. That wouldn't be good.

Here is a hypothetical formulation of Drug A that is dosed at 4mg/kg and has a concentration of 20mg/ml. Let's assume the rabbit weight 4.5 pounds....about 2kg.

2kg (weight) multiplied times 4mg (mean dosing)=8 mg (amount of drug) divided by 20mg/ml (concentration)=.4cc of suspension.

Here is what happens with a higher concentrations of 50mg/ml

2 (weight) times 4 (mean dosing)=8 mg (drug) divided by 50 (concentration)=.16cc of suspension.

That shows the importance of the concentration....and it took me a long time to master the metric system and that little decimal point can mean the difference of life and death.

Don't mean to be blunt but dosing drugs is very serious business....and with a rabbit being so small, the margin for error is tiny.

Keep us updated. Hope all goes well.

Randy

 

[Jenk]

Randy,

Thank you for the reality check, although I'm now scared silly. I think that Igave Zoe too high of a Banamine dose.I don't have your dosing explanation down pat, but if I understood even a fraction of it, then I gave Zoe .30 cc's of a5 mg/mL concentration. That might explain why she's acting "normal" (active/eating) now, though still not passing urine. I realize that acting "normal" doesn't necessarily mean normal, if an O.D. of pain med. is overridingpain symptoms.

When I call the vet's office (in five minutes), I'll be sure to tell the receptionist that I think I overdosed Zoe on Banamine. :tears2:

I'd thought that sludge actually shows as a thicker-than-normal urine output, but I'm open to being wrong on a lot of things at this point. Ack... (Zoe's urine passed last night was light-yellow in color and seemed normal in viscosity.)

Update: I got a voicemail message for the vet's office; the main vet's pager message says that he's unavailable until 7/6. OMG....

Burning question: At the moment, Zoe has passed a "normal-sized" amount of urine (sometime after 8:30 am) and is pooping. Do you think it would be okay for me to leave a voicemail for the vet's office and insist that someone see her tomorrow? (I really don't want to run to the emergency vet and pay 3 x's the already-high fees, if at all possible....Hubby and I have spent thousands of dollars that we don't comfortably have within less than five months' time. We need a financial break.... :tears2

 

[Maureen Las]

I'm sure that Randy will get back to us later....

The problems with waiting is that a problem like this is going to deteriorate without care. The vet most likely will givex-rays, give sq fluids and pain meds and probably an antibiotic.
Do you think that you can keep her pain free for a day?

When a vet is gone on the 4th they often are out of town . There is no way for you to know if he will even be in your city tomorrow.

believe me I know about the $$$ situation ,I am in the middle of being overwhelmed with vet bills right now.

I think that you should seriously consider taking her somewhere ..unless she really seems improvd. which doesn't seem likely; I am afraid the problem may just "blow up" before tomorrow and only be worse than presently

How is she now?

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

The problems with waiting is that a problem like this is going to deteriorate without care. The vet most likely will givex-rays, give sq fluids and pain meds and probably an antibiotic. Do you think that you can keep her pain free for a day?

When a vet is gone on the 4th they often are out of town . There is no way for you to know if he will even be in your city tomorrow.

believe me I know about the $$$ situation ,I am in the middle of being overwhelmed with vet bills right now.

I think that you should seriously consider taking her somewhere ..unless she really seems improvd. which doesn't seem likely; I am afraid the problem may just "blow up" before tomorrow and only be worse than presently

How is she now?

Zoe's regular vet is out of town (until 7/6), but one of his two associates should be in the office tomorrow (starting at 8 am).

Currently, Zoe is eating/drinking/pooping; she's also passed a noticeable amount of urine in her litter box.

I will keep a close eye on her all day (and into the night); if anything changes, I'll call the emergency clinic espoused by my vet's office.

 

[Maureen Las]

Try to get the unsweetened cranberry juice

What a holiday Huh!!!

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

Try to get the unsweetened cranberry juice

What a holiday Huh!!!

I'm starting to feel sour about this July 4th--especially after the news about Pipp's bun, Dill.

The only unsweetened cranberry juice we've foundhas apple juice asthe first ingredient, then cranberry...followed by grape and another juice. Grrr...Randy suggested getting fresh cranberries, but I've learned that they're seasonal and can't be bought now (fresh or frozen). I don't know if an unsweetened canned version is available; I might look.

The emergency clinic espoused by Zoe's vet is even farther away than Zoe's regular vet. (A drive to Zoe's vet's office is 35-40 min. This e-clinic is an houraway!) I don't know how the stress of such a long car ride would affect Zoe, which is another reason that I'm keeping tabs on her for now. There is another e-clinic (about 40 min.) away that I'll consider if Zoe has further problems.

Egads...

 

[Maureen Las]

sounds like a plan..........