The lives of Kiwi & Papaya!

[agnesthelion]

I sure hope everything is fine. I know what you mean about second guessing yourself. Overanalyzing is what i do best. I'm not dealing with a sick bun but even through bonding I worry about the littlest things.

I think it sounds like you have a good diet plan for kiwi. I sure hope everything is fine and you can finally rest easy again.

Your horses are beautiful. Yours too jenny! I know nothing about horses but I think they are magnificent animals.

Oh and I agree Mariah about being nervous to take your buns outside. I think the same thing! I saw a video on Americas Funniest Home Videos like several years ago before I even had Agnes and Archie. This little boy had his hamster outside and he set the hamster down on top of its cage and a hawk swooped down and took the hamster. The boy was standing right there. I was horrified! I thought, this is suppose to be funny??? I've been scarred about small animals outside ever since.......

 

[Mariah]

Well Kiwi seemed ok tonight but she wasent running around in the living room as much as she was two days ago. I'm thinking that it may be because my boyfriends been home sick for two days... So he has been in the living room with dog... He and Bella (the dog) were in the bedroom tonight so the living room was quiet, but maybe since they were in the living room all day yesterday they weren't quite sure if it was safe? I don't know... See how I over think these situations? Ugh!

Both buns were pooping, peeing, and eating their hay tonight. So I guess I shouldn't be too worrried... ? However, I still am!

I just put them to bed for the night, so really there isn't anything more I can do... Ill just have to see how they are in the morning. I'm happy I don't start work tomorrow until 1pm so that will give me the morning to watch them and let them have playtime and hopefully a good run before I leave.

*Fingers crossed* for the morning...

I really would love to try a no pellet diet but how would I do that? She would hear me giving Papaya his pellets and be a very mad bunny with me...

Lisa- thank you for the compliment on my horses! They are my other thing that I consistenly stress about! It was 21 degrees today so I took off their blankets cause they were sweating underneath. Now it's raining so I'm stressed that tomorrow they will be outside in the rain! (They are in stalls at night) They will be fine but I hate having them wet as its only going to be 12 degrees tomorrow. Bah!

 

[Mariah]

Update this morning: TONS of normal looking poop for kiwi! I wasent concerned about Papay, but his was great too!

I fed them breakfast and after that kiwi was doing the bunny 500 in the living room! Then she was exhausted so came and did a huge bunny flop while I was cleaning their houses! *relief*

They are having bunny playtime before I go to work. It's a crummy day here. Horrific downpours of rain!

Question: why does kiwi dig so much? Where does she think she's going??!!

My horses are having their turn out in the arena so they aren't wet either!

Terrific Tuesday so far!

Edited to say- Lisa, the hamster thing is not funny at all! That's terrible...

 

[JBun]

It's cold and rainy here too

The bf and his dog could easily be why Kiwi wasn't acting normal. Most rabbits don't like changes in their environment. As long as she's eating, drinking, and pooping normally, I wouldn't worry. I only get concerned about my rabbits if their eating and pooping changes.

I don't think Kiwi would be very happy with you either if you put her on a no pellet diet, considering how excited you say she is when you feed them to her. It was more of a last resort idea if she still wasn't feeling well.

I think the digging thing is just their bunny instincts kicking in. I have a few diggers and it can sure make for a big litter box mess. That's about when I make a screen cover so there's no more litter box digging. I'll give them a fleece blankie to dig and rearrange instead, much cleaner. Poor babies, I ruin all their fun

Thanks Lisa, I miss my big boy. He was a very sweet horse.
Mariah, I know how you feel about the horses. I hated when the temps dropped suddenly, then I would have to try and figure out if Nero was going to need his blanket or not.

By the way, is there anything cuter than Papaya standing guard over Kiwi while she's not feeling well. What a sweet boy!!

 

[Imbrium]

what sort of leafy greens are you feeding? if the simethicone is helping, she could be having gas problems... there are some things on the cruciferous veggie list that surprised me at first (I used to think it was just cabbage, brussel sprouts, broccoli and cauliflower but kale, arugula, watercress and collard greens are on the list as well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruciferous_vegetables )

from everything I've read about simethicone, the worst thing it can possibly do for bunnies is "nothing" - in other words, if it doesn't help with whatever the problem is, it still won't hurt.

this is the probiotic I got for my bunnies - http://www.leithpetwerks.com/prodpage.cfm?prod_code=MS510
I've only given it twice, though (a couple days before and one day after their spays since the instructions said to give two doses three days apart). gaz LOVES it... nala will eat a little bit and then she's DONE, so I never did get her to take an entire dose.

my bunnies dig at the fleece in their condo a ton, dunno why but it makes 'em happy so I just go with it.

have you ever tried the sherwood forest pellets? those might be better for kiwi if she's got issues with pellets, since they don't have any added sugars or molasses. if you do decide to give a "no pellet" diet a try I recommend messaging whitelop, who's been doing a ton of research on it (and over-analyzing it like so many of us do with everything). I would stay away from the oats, as bunnies don't metabolize carbs that well and oats can cause tummy issues and I believe the rolled oats can also cause gas.

if you want treats, you could try edible flowers like dandelions, roses, etc. I have a very small herb garden, so mine also get mint, basil, fennel and orange mint in "treat" quantities. treats don't have to be sugary to be special - they just have to be something the bunnies don't get a ton of that tastes nummy.

I think it would also benefit both you and kiwi to try to find a way to relax and not worry about every little thing. she most likely bonded to you even more after citrus passed away and is tuned-in to your moods - it's possible she senses your stress and worrying sometimes and it affects her. I know you can't just decide to not be stressed out any more (I've got anxiety problems, so I know all about how hard it can be... even if you know your worrying is irrational, as mine often is), but perhaps if you started doing some relaxation exercises right when you came home to try to relax some and at least temporarily shove the worries into the back of your mind...

 

[Mariah]

So this morning kiwi was fine after her pellets. No issues what's so ever. Tonight, well for the past two nights I've noticed she lays after she eats her dinner. I want to say that she looks uncomfortable. So, I think I need to decrease her pellets even more and see if that changes her behaviour. She is so excited at feeding time. She jumped up so fast tonight. She was in Papayas house when she heard it and ran so fast she was skidding on the concrete. I only want what's best for her, so another decrease it is.

Jennifer- I have not been feeding any leafy greens. The only thing she's ever had was romaine lettuce and carrots. I was never consistent with giving her either one so right now because of her tummy troubles, I'm afraid to give her anything other then hay and her pellets.

I've never tried the Sherwood rabbit food. I've never seen it here in Canada... Do either of you guys know if it comes to Canada?

And Jenny, I know! Papaya is too darn cute with kiwi! I think it's his airplane ears!!

Kiwi is the digger. So far Papaya has not picked up this habit. I don't mind the digging on the fleese, it's when she goes in the litter box and throws shavings everywhere!! Messy girl! She especially likes to do this right after everything has been freshly cleaned...

Good to know about the simethicone. I think I'll give her a dose tonight. I'm a smoker (bad I know) so im outside right now. I'll check on kiwi when I get back in and see if she's moved from where she was before.

Yes, I have very high anxiety when it comes to my rabbits- well all my pets in general. I'm trying to relax. This board helps me with that because someone always writes and gives me new things to try with kiwi. It's kinda like a moral support group for bunnies

I do think kiwi is bonded to me. Papaya, not so much, but I'm working on him too!

The probiotic I can't get at my work which I find surprising because we carry everything! Ill have to check out a pet store and see what we have here in Canada.

I saw my horses tonight quickly after work. Blankets are now on for tomorrow since its suposted to rain again... Booo for cold weather!!

Edited to say: I pretty much kicked the bf out of the living room and told him to get to work! We live in a small basement apt so sometimes it's hard to have the same routine for the buns cause his shifts flip flop from days to afternoons.

 

[JBun]

When Kiwi's laying down after eating, are you sure she's just not relaxing? My rabbits will lay down and relax for a little bit, after eating. If she's laying down for a really long time, then I guess it could still be something wrong with her.

The Sherwood Forest pellets are a good brand. You can order them online, but you may want to wait til you've figured out Kiwi's problem, before trying to change her food. You may want to try a no pellet diet for a few days just to see if it really is the pellets causing problems. If you want to try the sherwood pellets, they will send you a free sample for just the cost of shipping.

If the litter box digging is driving you crazy like it was with me and my buns, you could try making a grid to put over the shavings. Things stay so much cleaner and it's so much easier.

You can sometimes find probiotics at a feed store or horse tack shop, if you're wanting to try it. You can also sometimes find them at petstores, especially the bigger ones like Petsmart, but it would probably be in the cat section. Usually the petstores have Bene bac. The one that you would want at the feed store is a large syringe type tube that is a gel. I get Probios.

 

[Mariah]

I will look into the probiotic. I just have some many things that I'm trying to do with my buns, I don't have enough time to actually get to a store to look!

I don't know if Kiwi is just relaxing or not. It could just be me being over parnoid because she's been so "off" I don't know what's normal behavior for her anymore. Ugh.

After I gave the simethicone tonight he seemed to bounce back to "Kiwi". So I don't know if its my mind or what, but the simethicone seemed to help?

Now, of course I have another problem. Papaya was sneezing tonight.
No discharge. He's eating, drinking, pooping and peeing, but I feel nauseated about this. What if he has a cold? I've been through chronic sneezing with kiwi as a baby and it wasent fun. He also seemed more sedate tonight.

I won't be doing any food changes with kiwi for a while. It makes me nervous about having her food shipped because what if for some reason it dosent ship on time and I run out of food? That's another nightmare I don't want to deal with at this present time.

 

[Imbrium]

he could just be sneezing from weather changes or a little bit of dust - mine sneeze a little every now and then. if there's no discharge and he's eating/drinking/pooping/peeing normally, I wouldn't worry

forgot you were in canada when I suggested the sherwood... I'm pretty sure they'd ship there, but not sure how much pricier it would be.

I think if you're decreasing pellets and it's going well, you could try leafy greens a little more if you re-introduce them gradually.

I second the litter box grid idea. http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53690&forum_id=93 - 1/3 of the way down the first page is info on building a grid... you should be able to find the stuff for it in the lighting diffuser section of a hardware store. I swear by the grids - no digging in the boxes; no bunny butts standing in their own waste. keeps things clean and tidy and the grid can be sprayed clean with a hose 1-2x a week to get any urine off of it.

 

[Mariah]

And I do wonder about shipping food across the boarder. Maybe when I find the time, i could contact the Sherwood and see if they have any suppliers in Canada.

So this morning, buns were out playing. I usually usher them into their house before I leave. Well guess what? Something has freaked kiwi out and I can't get her back in her house! She keeps running away from me! Little defiant bunny! Just like her mom! Lol... Now I'm going to be late for work... Oh dear...

Has this ever happened to anyone where their bunny is scared of something (who knows what??) and they will not go back in their house??

Kiwi seems fine this morning, other then the fact that I can't get her back in her house. No sneezing from little Papaya... Yet. They were having some bunny snuggles this morning after breakfast:

 

[Imbrium]

my bunnies live full-time in a penned in living room, so I never have to worry about ushering them back home... sometimes they can be a royal pain to catch to get them out if they're really sprint-y that day or are hiding on the bottom floor of the condo where they know it's difficult for me to reach them, though.

they seem to come right up to the carrier when I'm in no hurry, but the minute I'm trying to catch them quickly (because I already told the neighbor I was bringing them outside or because we have to go to the vet), they get difficult about it.

 

[Mariah]

Kiwis issue this morning was like she had seen a ghost! Cause she's usually pretty good if I shake her pellets or grab the hay and crinkle it, she usually comes running. I eventually got her back in her x pen, but she was scared about something. She was looking everywhere at "something" but I have no idea what... The same thing happened about a month or so ago after I had put her to bed. She was running back and forth in her cage, thumping and throwing everything around. I have no idea what set her off. She was definitely scared of something.

And funny story, I guess she really didn't want to be in her x pen this morning. She broke out!! I got home and checked on her right away and her door was open. The bf was home and I was like WTH? And he's like oh, i thought you left her out! I was like i would have given you a heads up If I was going to do that. Keep in mind, I've never done that before!

I guess she had a good time while I was at work! It dosent look like she got into anything... I guess we shall see. Bad kiwi!! Papaya was probably like, hey... Can you let me out too? She didn't of course.

Silly bunny!

 

[Mariah]

Oh, and I got their last weights when I had them at the clinic.

Kiwi was: 3.74 lbs on Sept 22/12

Papaya was: 2.37 lbs on Aug 30/12

If I can get my act together, I'm going to bring the cat scale home with me tomorrow night and get up to date weights.

Jenny- with these weights can you please tell me what I should be feeding? I've attached a pic of the back of the martins adult Timothy based pellets that I feed. Let me know if you need anymore info please!

 

[JBun]

Poor Kiwi Probably heard something scary. It'll be nice when her and Papaya are fully bonded and they can snuggle together for comfort.

Watch out, now Kiwi knows how to escape it only means trouble Now she just needs to figure out how to help Papaya escape and they'll have a grand old time running around the house.

With the pellets, unfortunately I don't read french, however, I assume they are your typical timothy adult pellets. I had to stop feeding them to Zeus because they were still causing problems with his stomach because of the sugars and grains in them, after he recovered from GI stasis. Once I get his poops back to normal, I will probably try to reintroduce them to him very very slowly and a very limited amount, to see how he does. As long as his poops stay normal, I'll keep giving them to him, but right now he still gets those tiny poops, so I know his digestive system isn't fully recovered. I'm giving him probiotics every day to help it get better, but it just takes some time.... If Kiwi's poops really are normal and she doesn't have any of the tiny ones anymore, it would make me think that her digestion is doing ok with what she's getting. If you still feel that she sometimes is feeling unwell, you could try cutting back to a 1/4 cup a day for her. With Papaya's weight being under 3 lbs. he probably would be fine with 1/4 cup too. Unfortunately the only way to know if that's going to be a good amount, is by them maintaining their weight and body condition. If Papaya starts to feel a little boney then you would need to increase the pellet amount. It always just depends on the individual rabbit. Dakota weighs about 5 lbs.(or is supposed to anyways), but she puts on weight really easy, so she only gets 1/4 cup pellets each day, and she's still a little chucky even at that small amount.

If you really do think Kiwi is still having tummy issues and that her laying down isn't normal behavior, really the only way to know if it's the pellets causing the problems, would be to try no pellets for a few days. If her pooping and eating is still good, then she might be just fine, but she's also your bun and you know alot better than I do, what would or wouldn't be normal for her

 

[Imbrium]

aww, poor little kiwi! I bet she forgot all about it during her escape-romp, though

did you figure out how she got out? Nala recently learned how to climb a 48'' tall playpen! I was stumped as to how she was getting out of an enclosure I'd thought was escape proof... until I caught her climbing out!

 

[Mariah]

I cut kiwi back to the 1/4 cup today. Well half of the 1/4 for dinner. No laying down! She came running out of her pen when she was done eating to see what I was doing! I was cleaning the kitty litter box but apparently that was really interesting for kiwi! Lol... I'll keep her on this amount and see how she does. Papaya does feel abit boney to me, so I'm going to increase his pellets slightly (currently he's getting the 1/4 cup for the day so ill do a little more) and see if that helps.

Sorry about the French version! Here is the English version. I just assumed you would need the guaranteed analysis which was in English!

And kiwi escaped by chewing on the NIC panels and I guess if she yanks on them hard enough with her teeth the binder clips that hold the door close will open... Any suggestions on what else to use to keep the door closed? Here is a pic:

 

[Imbrium]

you can get small carabiners dirt cheap in the hardware section of walmart here and I've found them at home depot as well so I imagine any similar hardware or all-purpose stores in canada would have them. they're quick and easy to open yourself but impossible for someone who lacks opposable thumbs - I use them to secure all the doors on my NIC condo

 

[Mariah]

Ok! That is a good idea! Ill have to get some this weekend! I can't have kiwi breaking out of her x pen everyday!

I saw two poops that were held together by hair from kiwi...
She is eating hay so I'm hoping that pushes the hair through since I can't give pineapple juice cause of the sugars... *worried mama*

 

[Imbrium]

I see poops like that periodically (they stand out because they tend to get caught on the litter box grid). as long as it's only a strand or two of hair connecting them, there's not a lot of sets of connected poops and she's eating/pooping normal amounts, there's absolutely nothing to worry about - ingesting small amounts of hair is normal and it doesn't get digested so it just passes out. the fact that it IS coming out is a good sign

 

[JBun]

What a clever bun That's usually a boy thing to do, just muscle your way through!

Some other things that might work to secure the panels, are trigger snaps that you use on horse reins for easy unclipping of the reins, and also just regular snaps. You can usually find them at a feed store or tack shop, and sometimes at a hardware store.

The pellet ingredients are pretty basic for timothy pellets. If she keeps having problems it would be because of the molasses and barley in there, maybe. Oh wait, do you see any molasses listed. That's actually pretty surprising. Almost all rabbit food has molasses added. So that's pretty good for these. The only bad thing in there would be the grains and maybe the soybeans. But that's good, no added sugars at least.

Nothing but brushing is really going to cut down on hair in the poop, but if rabbits are getting sufficient fiber in their diets, then that will help to prevent GI slowdown.