Snuffles and Concenia??

[Envyme]

Hi-

My rescue bun (4 months old) male has been sneezing on and off for about a month now (since I rescued him). We had him on Baytril (sp) for weeks and it did improve but never went away. As soon as I said it improved but needed refill vet said no and to see if it would go away on it's own now (I guess was her logic). I disagreed but what can you do...anyways he was fixed about 4 days ago and he is back to sneezing the same amount as he was when we stopped the antibiotics. I have heard Convenia is great via injection for treating this any recs? Is it as safe as say giving Baytril to a bun?

What do you think?

I also hear that a culture test is good BUT that in the end most rabbits have been exposed to Pasteurella at some point but there system can fight it off in most cases. So, thetest will more than likely come back positive for that when it maynot be the issue at all.

I will say this. Peanut was taken from his mom ata week old.So very sad I know. He wastaken in by Bunny WorldFoundation where I volunteer. So, he has a weaker immune system then most I think. He has no weepy eyes or any other issue with the lungs that can be heard.Thevet checked him and said that he does not seem like the typical sick bun that hasa major issue with many symptoms like above. We were going toflush outhis ductsat time of neuterbut vet decidedthe day of thatshe felt it was not necessary.

 

[tonyshuman]

Convenia has had some great results with some forum bunnies.

The question about culture and sensitivity test is a bit inaccurate. This test doesn't just determine which bacteria are there (yes, probably Pasturella), but it also tests which antibiotics are able to kill those bacteria. That's why it's so helpful. They can use those results to prescribe the right antibiotic. I would do this, especially since he's been on Baytril and it didn't help.

I wouldn't worry too much about his long-term health due to being taken from his mom yet. If it does impact him, there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

[Envyme]

Thanks for the advise and input. I really appreciate it

 

[nicolevins]

My bun had pasturella so bad, that he died.

My rabbit had it about 3 weeks ago but she is all cleared now. We gave her 0.4ml of Baytril(liquid!) and she was givin eye drops.

Like Claire said.. you should ask your vet about a culture and sensitivity test -a deep one not a simple swap. Some people I haved talked to had their buns on much higher doses of baytril for months on end.

I haven't heard of the Convenia vaccine. Must do some research on it!

 

[ra7751]

Few things here. First, there is no such thing as "snuffles" Convenia isn't a vaccine, it's a cephalosporin...an antibiotic (safe only as an injectable). A culture is as valuable in telling what it isn't as much as what it is. Pastureurella is a faculative anaerobic....certain strains can live with or without oxygen. If we have presentations of a bacterial infection and don't grow something in the dish, we treat for pasteurella. Convenia is effective against most pasteurella. But it must be dosed at closer intervals than with a dog or cat. My drug of choice is Azithromycin against pasteurella. Baytril (and related drugs) have been so misused by the veterinary community that bacteria is quickly becoming resistant to those drugs. We don't use Baytril in domestic rabbits and haven't forquite a while. Sulfa drugs are also outdated and can cause some serious GI issues in some rabbits.

Randy

 

[Envyme]

ra7751 wrote:

Few things here. First, there is no such thing as "snuffles" Convenia isn't a vaccine, it's a cephalosporin...an antibiotic (safe only as an injectable). A culture is as valuable in telling what it isn't as much as what it is. Pastureurella is a faculative anaerobic....certain strains can live with or without oxygen. If we have presentations of a bacterial infection and don't grow something in the dish, we treat for pasteurella. Convenia is effective against most pasteurella. But it must be dosed at closer intervals than with a dog or cat. My drug of choice is Azithromycin against pasteurella. Baytril (and related drugs) have been so misused by the veterinary community that bacteria is quickly becoming resistant to those drugs. We don't use Baytril in domestic rabbits and haven't forquite a while. Sulfa drugs are also outdated and can cause some serious GI issues in some rabbits.

Randy

Hi Randy,

Thank you for your reply! Let me ask you about Azithromycin...is that a liquid or injection?

What dosage do you generally give a rabbit of 3 lbs? I am not planning on doing anything unless under strict vet permission/guidelines BUT I am just curious what you have found to be effective dosage wise and how often administered?

Thanks

 

[tonyshuman]

azithromyacin is the generic name for Zithromax, and it is an oral drug. Some bunnies on here have had GI issues with it. Here are some dosing instructions, although I cannot verify if they are accurate. http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

Your vet should be pretty familiar with azithromyacin, but if not, he could use these dosing instructions and have it filled at a human pharmacy as an oral suspension for a child--they can even make it a bunny-friendly flavor. It does require a prescription.

 

[Envyme]

I spoke to the vet again today and I mentioned the above Tony she stated that those antibiotrics are really strong and should be used for extreme cases only. I dunno but my gut tells me she is off...She stated that, "If Peanut is only sneezing 5 or so times a day then antibiotics including Baytril should not be used." I personally feel if there is a problem then treat it. If Baytril does not work and completely cure it then get on another one after trying one specific med for 3 weeks plus or minus. What do you think?

Thanks again for your input.

 

[ra7751]

I agree with your vet that you shouldn't treat for a bacterial infection unless there is a bacterial infection. I think she may be a bit out of date on the use of antibiotics since most of the high end exotics focus vets long ago gave up on Baytril. I consider Zithromax a basic drug. I use it extensively with very little problem at all. None of the numerous rabbits have had anything other than a very slight GI upset the first few days....nothing serious. Convenia is something that very few vets know how to use in rabbits....but it's quite effective. And a possible alternative to Baytril is Zeniquin. It is Baytril on "steroids". It is in the same family of drugs but with a slightly different coverage and without the resistance issues of Baytril.

And sneezing can be a dental issue with a secondary infection.

And while I understand the terminology used....the fact is that there is no "stronger" antibiotic. Each drug has targets. Baytril, for example, is a broad spectrum drug which means it generally works against several different bacteria. Some work against specific bacteria or specific types of bacteria. Penicillin is very effective against "gram positive" bacteria....and that is the reason it isn't safe when given orally.

Randy

 

[Envyme]

Hello,

Well, the issue is I spend time with my bunnies on and off throughout the day because I am not home during the day...I was laid off Friday and today I ran some errands so I did not spend a tun of time with the buns in the earlier part of the day. But this evening is a different story. My orig sight was maybe 5-7 times a day sneezing but I spent about 2 plus hrs with the buns (consecutively) and the sneezing was going on about 8 timesmaybe more in that time...so who know in a given day how often the sneezing goes on. YIKES! I will have to call her back tomorrow and let her know. I feel like an idiot but oh well... I do think there is a health issue. Rabbits do not just sneeze all the time do they? So, I think it needs to be treated right? I will pay for a swab to be sent in to the lab so we can figure this madness out. But, that will not be until Thursday. His teeth were checked out with no issues noted...so I do not think that is the issue but I could be wrong. So, would Zithromax and Zeniquin both used for UR infections? Are they given by injection? I did not see those names on the list on the website provided above... So, I am not sure if there is another name for them that is on the list of meds to give bun...

ra7751 wrote:

I agree with your vet that you shouldn't treat for a bacterial infection unless there is a bacterial infection. I think she may be a bit out of date on the use of antibiotics since most of the high end exotics focus vets long ago gave up on Baytril. I consider Zithromax a basic drug. I use it extensively with very little problem at all. None of the numerous rabbits have had anything other than a very slight GI upset the first few days....nothing serious. Convenia is something that very few vets know how to use in rabbits....but it's quite effective. And a possible alternative to Baytril is Zeniquin. It is Baytril on "steroids". It is in the same family of drugs but with a slightly different coverage and without the resistance issues of Baytril.

And sneezing can be a dental issue with a secondary infection.

And while I understand the terminology used....the fact is that there is no "stronger" antibiotic. Each drug has targets. Baytril, for example, is a broad spectrum drug which means it generally works against several different bacteria. Some work against specific bacteria or specific types of bacteria. Penicillin is very effective against "gram positive" bacteria....and that is the reason it isn't safe when given orally.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

That amount of sneezing does sound excessive. A culture and sensitivity test would be good to to, and if that shows nothing, a head x-ray to check for dental issues. You can't truly tell if there is a tooth problem without seeing the majority of the tooth, which is the root under the gum.

I don't think you'd do both zeniquin and zithromax at the same time because I think they're both oral, and you could have more GI side effects with two oral antibiotics. That's just guessing, though, because I don't have practical experience, just theoretical.

 

[Envyme]

Hi Tony,

Yepers off to the vet again! Man...put me in the poor house won't they I am only half way joking about that! Anyways, I count each sneeze as one so if they do three in a row I count that as 3 sneezes. I almost guarantee it isn't dental related because a lot of the buns where he was rescued from have an UR infection with sneezing JUST like Peanut...leads me to believe he has the same thing. I did not notice when I first got him that he had it but that evening I did! Baytril helped some of the buns at the rescue where Peanut was adopted from but it has not helped everyone That is why I think no dental issues...I won't rule it completely out though.

As far as the oral meds...sorry for the confusion I did not mean I would give both at the same time. I was just asking for additional info on both as I would like to take Peanut to another vet for a 2nd opinion...the vet is about an hour a way but I will go there and do what I have to do. zeniquin and zithromax are oral can you provide me with a resource for dosage and additional info on these 2 meds? I went to the website that shows different bunny safe meds and I did not see either on that list. I am wondering if there is another name for either of those?

Thanks
urplepansy:
tonyshuman wrote:

That amount of sneezing does sound excessive. A culture and sensitivity test would be good to to, and if that shows nothing, a head x-ray to check for dental issues. You can't truly tell if there is a tooth problem without seeing the majority of the tooth, which is the root under the gum.

I don't think you'd do both zeniquin and zithromax at the same time because I think they're both oral, and you could have more GI side effects with two oral antibiotics. That's just guessing, though, because I don't have practical experience, just theoretical.

 

[tonyshuman]

I see.

It's fine to give some oral meds with other antibiotics, in fact it's done quite frequently with penicillin injections and zithromax oral, or convenia injections and zithromax oral.

The generic name for Zithromax is azithromyacin. It's on this website: http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

The generic name for Zeniquin is marbofloxacin, and its dosing info is also found at the link above.

Convenia does not have a generic form but the compound is also called cefovecin. The prescribing information that comes in the packet is here: http://www.convenia.com/pdfs/Convenia_prescribing_information.pdf

It doesn't mention rabbits because it is not approved for use in rabbits yet. Thus, it's an "off-label" use of the drug. I wouldn't worry about that though, since many people have had good success with it. That document tells you what dose should be given based on the weight of the animal, and it should be given via sub-cutaneous injection every 5 days. The dosing for dogs and cats is every 7 days, but rabbits seem to eliminate it from their systems more quickly.

Hope that helps!

 

[Envyme]

Hi Tony,
I can't thank you enough for your wealth of knowledge and assistance. I really appreciate it. One last question for today...I promise...Can you give a Bunny both Baytril and Albone? Are the 2 ok to give orally at the same time? I ask because the vet gave me meds to treat coccidia in case they have it. She thought Peanut may so she had me treat both with Albone to be on the safe side. The fecal sample came back today neg for Coccidia so that is a relief! They area also getting Invermectin for possible ear mites. They are 100% indoors so who knows how they would get that. Is it ok to give them those meds during different times of the day but still give all 3?
Thanks

XOXO

 

[ra7751]

OK...here is the deal with the drugs you mentioned. First Baytril. This drug is mostly ineffective against most pathogens you will find with a rabbit as well as dogs. Very few vets that are up to date with the times use Baytril any longer and use the drugs I mentioned earlier. Albon is a sulfanomide (a type of antibiotic). That family of drug is very old school but still used quite a bit. In rabbits, it tends to be very harsh on the gram positive bacteria in the GI and has been linked to a serious issue called Tyzzer's Disease (many people, me included, present allergic reactions to sulfa). We also know that contrary to what has been believed in the past, Albon and other sulfa drugs are ineffective against coccidia. The best treatment for coccidia is the immune system....but it is found in many compromised animals. The drug of choice to treat coccidia (as well as EC) is Ponazuril (Marquis). I usually treat ear mites with either Acarexx (a one time dosing) or Revolution (which is effective against a wide range of external and internal parasites).

In the rare cases we use Baytril (limited to some wildife cases with cottontails) we dose it differently and administer it differently than standard dosing. We do not use Baytril in any other species. I would not use Baytril and a sulfa drug concurrently as it would most likely cause "blow out diarrhea" and that would walk you into a problem with enterotoxins from Clostridium.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

To be honest, I don't know. However, they act on different biological mechanisms, so I don't think they would hurt each other's effectiveness or attack the same bacteria. However, I'd give them a few hours apart just to make sure, and also give probioitic like Bene-Bac with them. I would worry about them overwhelming the good GI bacteria. Albon is an antiparasitic (coccida is a parasite) and an antibiotic (but it's not as strong as Baytril as an antibiotic). Two antibiotic things at once via the same route can be a bit dicey.

If anyone knows the answer here, it would be Randy, though.
:stikpoke

Is the ivermectin topical? I think Albon, Baytril, and oral Ivermectin would be a bit too much on a bunny. I'd want them to be very well hydrated so their liver and kidneys can work well. I also would give probiotic and spread the dosing out by about 2hrs at least.

Sorry I'm not so much help on this question!

 

[Envyme]

Hi,

I have decided to give the meds a few hrs apart and no Baytril! The ivermectin is given orally. The vet said it can be given orally or via injection with the same type of ivermectin. She chose to give this to them orally. Basically the bottle is liquid and says ivermectin inj but vet is having me give oral. Is that ok? I have read online some people do this. It is spread a part by several days. So, I will give one dose 1st day then wait 10 days (I think) then give again.I may go back and ask for something else when we go for a recheck. Peanut is still sneezing here and there so we will see. I was out for the weekend so I will have to watch him today to see how he does.



tonyshuman wrote:

To be honest, I don't know. However, they act on different biological mechanisms, so I don't think they would hurt each other's effectiveness or attack the same bacteria. However, I'd give them a few hours apart just to make sure, and also give probioitic like Bene-Bac with them. I would worry about them overwhelming the good GI bacteria. Albon is an antiparasitic (coccida is a parasite) and an antibiotic (but it's not as strong as Baytril as an antibiotic). Two antibiotic things at once via the same route can be a bit dicey.

If anyone knows the answer here, it would be Randy, though.
:stikpoke

Is the ivermectin topical? I think Albon, Baytril, and oral Ivermectin would be a bit too much on a bunny. I'd want them to be very well hydrated so their liver and kidneys can work well. I also would give probiotic and spread the dosing out by about 2hrs at least.

Sorry I'm not so much help on this question!

 

[ra7751]

I think I would maybe look for a vet that might be more up to date on more advanced and effective treatments.....sounds like a Merck Manual or Five Minute Vet Consult type doctor....no flaming intending but many vets' "experience" is either one of these publications or the VIN....and those sources are sometimes quite out of date or just plain wrong. Most vets get very little time on "exotics" in vet school....and I live near a major vet school and do presentations for them and wildlife rehabbers quite often....so Iget a chance to see what training they get. Never hurts to geta second opinion.

Randy

 

[Envyme]

No worries at all. The vet I took Peanut too (one described below) is well known, has 10 buns of his/her own, and is rec by the house rabbit society. I have heard wonderful things about this vet. A lot of local rescues use this vet too. I hope he/she is as good as I think he/she is Thanks for your input.

XOXO

ra7751 wrote:

I think I would maybe look for a vet that might be more up to date on more advanced and effective treatments.....sounds like a Merck Manual or Five Minute Vet Consult type doctor....no flaming intending but many vets' "experience" is either one of these publications or the VIN....and those sources are sometimes quite out of date or just plain wrong. Most vets get very little time on "exotics" in vet school....and I live near a major vet school and do presentations for them and wildlife rehabbers quite often....so Iget a chance to see what training they get. Never hurts to geta second opinion.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

Typically, it's not recommended to give a drug in a way that it wasn't made for. I'm not sure about the injectible Ivermectin, though. I've read the ingredients and I don't think they would be damaging if given orally, but I don't have experience with that so I can't say if it's a good idea, sorry.

10 days apart sounds normal for coccidia, I think.