Possibly Stasis (Again)...

[Jenk]

Emma acted fairly normal for the last few weeks'. Then at 9 am today,she got into her bed, indicating thatsomething is amiss; shenever gets init except for her afternoon nap and at bedtime. Now she's shifting her body position while on her cage floor. (Her back legs arestretched out behind her--not a normal position for her.)

She has normal-sized poops in one side of her litter box and some slightly-smaller-than-normal ones on the other side of it. (She only had about three smaller poops yesterday; so I chose not to worry at that time--until now, at least.)

Her gut sounds seem slow (big surprise at this point...), not overly loud as though she has gas. So I don't know if should even bother with Simethicone.

Besides Critical Care andsyringe-fed water (and possibly Simethicone and/or Metacam)--until I can schedule yet another vet visit--is there anything else that I can do for her?

Parasites haven't been detected; her blood work is normal (except for a slight elevation in ALT/something-or-other levels); there's been ZERO indication of a problem, though something must be done for her, lest I lose my mind. My husband and I are not willing to continue flying through our entire savings account, which we're doing at this rate. :X

Most maddening is that she goes from 100% normalcy (eating/drinking like a horse, being active) to flopping down and not touching anything.

I partly suspect Mycotoxins;this issue started after I reintroduced pellets into her diet (for4-6 weeks). But the vet has said Myco. usually makes buns very sick/weak permanently, which doesn't seem to be the case with Emma.

Plus, I just learned that our cat has Helicobacter; I don't know if he could somehow pass it on to our buns simply by being near/around them.



Jenk

 

[jcl_24]

I'm unable to advise you but do hope Emma gets back to normal asap and you get your peace of mind back :bunnyhug:

Jo xx

 

[dquesnel]

Hi Jenk, so sorry you are going through this again. When is the last time she ate? I wouldn't syringe feed/ force feed critical care unless you are POSITIVE she hasn't had anything to eat in 12 hours. I find the syringing process really stresses them out and makes a potentially minor problem worse.

This doesn't seem like a Myco thing. It *does* sound like a gas thing- she isn't slowing down as much as she is simply not eating anything, right? I don't think giving her simethicone would hurt. A friend of mine has spoken to a vet about simethicone- and was told it only breaks up certain types of gas; I think the frothy kind but can't remember now. Or is may be the large bubble kind? In any case even if you give simethicone and see no results it may not necessarily mean gas is not present.

Is there any dampness around her nose, out of curiousity? And is it warm where you are? And I think you had said before that she has not had a head xray? The ONLY other thing I can think of his teeth roots that become irritated/infected.

I am in same position as you - IE: drained savings and long past frustrated. But before you jump the gun and start treating her immediately again, I am wondering if she can pull herself out of this. I don't mean to say be irresponsible and neglect her, but if you leave her for a good 8-10 hours without looking at her once I wonder what will happen. Something tells me she will still be there when you get back, either the same or better but not worse. Please update when you can!

 

[Jenk]

dquesnel wrote:

When is the last time she ate? I wouldn't syringe feed/ force feed critical care unless you are POSITIVE she hasn't had anything to eat in 12 hours. I find the syringing process really stresses them out and makes a potentially minor problem worse.

I made this error before you replied. :? That is, Emma stopped eating at 8:30 am; I syringe-fed her Critical Care (30 cc's) around 1:30 pm. Shortly thereafter, she perked up a bit and tooksome Pedialyte from a syringe. She then ate some hay. It's hard to say what she'll do at her standard wake-up time (about 7:30 pm).

This doesn't seem like a Myco thing. It *does* sound like a gas thing- she isn't slowing down as much as she is simply not eating anything, right?

According to this article (http://www.morfz.com/myco.html), Emma has many symptoms of Myco, especiallyexcessive thirst. (She candrink 250+ mL of water within 12-24 hours.) Past blood work has indicated slightly elevatedliver enzymes (ALT/something-or-other). The fact that she shows suchsudden abdominal discomfort(be it gas, or whatnot) is worrisome. She also demonstrates a slight wobble at times while sitting upright.

Unfortunately, her vet doesn't think it's Myco. Honestly, is there harm in treating for Myco. (with Sucralfate, Prilosec, etc.) if it's at least suspected--and since it can't even be provenfrom a living rabbit?

I don't think giving her simethicone would hurt. A friend of mine has spoken to a vet about simethicone- and was told it only breaks up certain types of gas; I think the frothy kind but can't remember now. Or is may be the large bubble kind? In any case even if you give simethicone and see no results it may not necessarily mean gas is not present.

I gave her two Simethicone doses. While she seems better (atm), I don't give all the credit to Simeth.

Is there any dampness around her nose, out of curiousity? And is it warm where you are? And I think you had said before that she has not had a head xray? The ONLY other thing I can think of his teeth roots that become irritated/infected.

I've not noticed any dampness around her nose. My house iskept at 75-deg. F. She's not had head x-rays but eats her food fine for weeks without issue. Again, she has so many symptoms possiblyindicative of Myco. that it's downright scary to me.

I am in same position as you - IE: drained savings and long past frustrated. But before you jump the gun and start treating her immediately again, I am wondering if she can pull herself out of this. I don't mean to say be irresponsible and neglect her, but if you leave her for a good 8-10 hours without looking at her once I wonder what will happen. Something tells me she will still be there when you get back, either the same or better but not worse.

I hear you. Honestly, how much money is someone expected to shell out for animal healthcare? We've given up everything this year due to vet bills--including our once-planned, much-needed vacation. :X

I'm home today andsee Emma from my place on the couch; butI'm trying not to bother her (beyond giving her the Simeth. and CC earlier today).

I still feel that her stasis/gas/misc. issues are too cyclical to simply begas. What rabbit gets repeated bouts of gas (nearly monthly) from timothy hay and non-gas-forming leafy greens?

 

[Maureen Las]

Jenk why don't you pm randy with all the details and ask him to poston the forum

 

[Jenk]

JimD wrote:

Deeeeep breath....I try to go step by step, and try to have a plan that's one step ahead (not as easy as it sounds though).

Still breathing, but barely...

These bunners are a lot stronger than we give them credit for, too.

Whenever Emma does this, she goes from eating straight to shifting around in pain/discomfort. The last time, she looked like absolute hell. She'd gone only 8-10 hours without touching her water and already showed signs of dehydration (e.g., having more flat-looking eyes, etc.).

I'm not saying not to go to the vet if needed.
Don't rush to the vet if it's something you can handle at home....the costs add up.

:laugh:Jim, I'm not laughing at you. It's just that your last comment strikes me as ironic based upon the number of vet visits I've already made--and in the face of the savings that we've lost to vet bills.

My hubby and I have become very leery of vet care. We spentabout $3Kfor tests on our cat to receive one definitive diagnosis--for a bacterial infection, which account for hisoriginal, most troublesome symptom.

I think that we're through paying for tests for him--even if that means he has something that may lead to his death. It sounds callous, but we're tired of feeling stressed and running to this-or-that vet for absolutely no answers.

As with Chippy's GI issues...it sounds more like a chronic condition as opposed to a "life or death" situation.

Is stasis that occurs on a nearly monthly basissimply chronic, or more cyclical (in the sense of parasites, Mycotoxins, etc.)?Per my previous post,Emma has abnormal symptoms that, to me, point to Mycotoxins; her vet disagrees, sayingthat she'dbe more ill. But the cyclical nature of her symptoms could indicate Mycotoxins (per the article I've linked)--especially her excessive thirst.

 

[JimD]

I'm so sorry...I went back to edit my post and deleted instead.

 

[Jenk]

JimD wrote:

I'm so sorry...I went back to edit my post and deleted instead.

It's as if I've replied to a phantom post. :biggrin2: No worries, Jim. Some key parts of your original (now non-existent) post live on in my previous reply.

 

[JadeIcing]

Elvis is 5lbs he can drink 6-8 cups of water in a day. (I measure by cups) Dallas omg he drinks like has never had water. I have watched him sit there for 5mins straight and not stop drinking. Some bunnies just drink alot.

I know of several bunnies that have chronic stasis issues. So that could be the case.

If you feel that strongly about what you think it might be than maybe it is time to get a second opinion. It doesn't hurt.

 

[dquesnel]

What.is.going.on.

Jenk, this sounds all too familliar... I know we discussed Myco briefly in a PM, have you given your rabbits all new food since you became aware of this? New packages of food, new hay source etc? I am doubtful that if you are using the same food as many other people, and others are not having the same problems, that it is Myco. So many other buns would be having the same problems. I too use Oxbow Timothy pellets, I threw the old bag away and got a new one, changed the hay but Sass' issues are continuing. That is why I am doubtful of Myco, I don't know what you have done but if it is the same as I then I would still be doubtful. The only way to prove Myco is to get the food tested. I think that is easier than treating the rabbit- some medications and anti biotics can slow down the system and make it worse, especially if Myco was *not* the cause.

I also have to say that the Myco symptoms are also so broad, and present with other disorders. How long would Myco poisoning stay in the system?

The thing that REALLY screams out to me here though, is the elevated liver enzymes. You are right- it is ALT that is the chemistry you are thinking of. ALT (alanine aminotransferase) is a sensitive indicator of active liver damage but does not indicate the cause. *edited to add: with Myco, would other values be elevated or abnormal? high BUN and creatinine levels values? BUN (blood urea nitrogen) indicates kidney function. CREA (creatinine) reveals kidney function. This test helps distinguish between kidney and non-kidney causes of elevated BUN.* Sass' blood too showed elevated liver enzymes, and nothing else. Can someone please give insight as to what this means? I was told by the vet that it can be fairly normal but if the rabbit's condition doesn't improve or keeps failing on and off it can mean something. Here is a statement from Dana Krempels PhD I have found (well known rabbit vet):
"Chronic infection can cause an elevation in liver enzymes, so a vet is wise to try antibiotics, even if there was no obvious infection."

The problem is in deciding which anti biotic to try.

I know combined with excessive thirst this can point to E. cuniculi, which can cause kidney and liver damage.

I feel your pain about running to the vet for no answers, my last trip showed NOTHING and it was also suggested to me that I am stressing my rabbit out or he is not as bad as I think. Well, I was away at work 16 hours everyday barely seeing my rabbits and he did not get better. You are not alone- and I think it would help if our vets somehow communicated, even though their problems are not exactly the same it could be really really similar. PM your vets info to me if you like, I will pass it on to my vet tomorrow when I call her (hopefully she returns my call this time and I can actually SPEAK to her) but I;m sure we will figure this out. It seems like a really common thing, I highly doubt myco like I said before but rather an infection... The liver enzymes point to it, along with cyclical relapse.

 

[Jenk]

JadeIcing wrote:

Elvis is 5lbs he can drink 6-8 cups of water in a day. (I measure by cups) Dallas omg he drinks like has never had water. I have watched him sit there for 5mins straight and not stop drinking. Some bunnies just drink alot.

:shock: My girls' vet's colleague had mentioned that Emma would like drink 100-120 mL/day (she's 3 lbs.). So when I noticed that she's been drinking250 mL, I felt concerned. I guess that explains why her regular vet didn't seem phased when I'd first mentioned how much she's been drinking.I guess that2-3 cups of water for her would be equivalent to the 6-8 that Elvis drinks. Okay, I feel a bit better about this subject.

I know of several bunnies that have chronic stasis issues. So that could be the case.

I'd prefer this to be the case than Mycotoxins. And it just might be. The biggest problem for me is that I don't know 100% what caused Emma's first stasis bout; it could've been one thing or a few things tied in together.

If you feel that strongly about what you think it might be than maybe it is time to get a second opinion. It doesn't hurt.

I don't disagree, but paying for another vet to tell me thatit could be Mycotoxins is just another bill wasted. The only "proof" would be to have the pellets tested. But, then again, if thetestcame out negative, then that's another $100+ wasted.

I hate myself tobring the money thing into is (as if saying, "She's not worth the extra cost"). But my hubby and I areseriouslyrethinking how much people should be obligated to spend on pet care before just letting "be what will be." That is, there's no apparent"cure" forMyco. anyway--just some meds. to help ease discomfort.

 

[Jenk]

My apologies; this response will be loooong.

dquesnel wrote:

I know we discussed Myco briefly in a PM, have you given your rabbits all new food since you became aware of this? New packages of food, new hay source etc? I am doubtful that if you are using the same food as many other people, and others are not having the same problems, that it is Myco. So many other buns would be having the same problems.

The hard part is determining the exact cause of Emma's issues; several things overlapped this past spring. Here's a timeline as best I can reconstruct it:

1) 4/08:I noticed (a bit late) that Emma was shedding. (She'd likely started in March;it got heavy/noticeable in April.)

2) 4/08: I gave Zoe and Emma Kleenmama's hay (new to them). Zoe ate it well; Emma didn't touch it as much. (I'm not sure exactly why/when she began going "off" her hay;she seemed to stop eating it. I kick myself for not being more observant.)

3) 4/08: I began feeding Emma pellets, which she'dbeen off of for months. She'd been ontimothy hay only for about fourweeks' (long story not related to her digestion). She'd begun feelingthin, so I fed the pellets, which also may have encouraged herto eat less of KM's hay. (Or she just didn't like it. *shrug*) Note: Zoe was not fed pellets at this time.

4) 4/08: Emma'spoop changed at times (turned very dark andsmelly, like dill). Her vet said such symptoms can result fromhigher protein levels (from pellets)and from the cecum's contents being emptied.

5) 5/08: Emma stopped eating/drinkingone evening (refused even her greens). At her vet visit the nextday, her gut sounds were slow enough and her dehydration level high enough for the vet to hospitalize her. (It all seemed so sudden; but I think that I was less observant than I should've been.)

6) Emma's been off pellets since May (now eating hay/greens). She still gets dark poops sometimes, small poops sometimes,dill-smellingpoops sometimes....I can't rationalize the ups-and-downs. The not knowing is driving me NUTS. She goes from eating/drinkingnormally to immediatelyshowing signs ofdiscomfort.

I also have to say that the Myco symptoms are also so broad, and present with other disorders. How long would Myco poisoning stay in the system?

I don't know how long the toxins stay in the system. Per the article that I've linked, the effects of Myco. never go away; the damage is cumulative.

The thing that REALLY screams out to me here though, is the elevated liver enzymes. You are right- it is ALT that is the chemistry you are thinking of. ALT (alanine aminotransferase) is a sensitive indicator of active liver damage but does not indicate the cause. *edited to add: with Myco, would other values be elevated or abnormal?high BUN and creatinine levels values? BUN (blood urea nitrogen) indicates kidney function. CREA (creatinine) reveals kidney function....Sass' blood too showed elevated liver enzymes, and nothing else. Can someone please give insight as to what this means?

Here are her results in chronological order (stating only those results that fall outside of the "normal" range)?

5/08 Test Results:

MCH - 22.4 (range 12.5-17.5)

Platelet count - 197 (range 200-500)

SGPT (ALT) - 74 (range 10-45)

Alkaline Phosphatase - 65 (range 4-20)

Total protein - 8.1 (range 5.4-7.3)

Albumin - 5.3 (range 2.4-4.5)

Phosphorous - 4.1 (range 4.4-7.2)

Globulin - 2.8 (range 2.9-4.9)

Prevotella ("light growth") and Enterococcus("abundant growth")also found.

6/08 Test Results:

MCH - 22.5 (range 12.5-17.5)

MCHC - 31 (range 32-36)

Heterophil Count - 1638 (2275-9750)

Lymphocytes - 7280 (range 1500-7000)

SGPT (ALT) -57 (range 10-45)

Alkaline Phosphatase -47 (range 4-20)

Albumin -4.7 (range 2.4-4.5)

Phosphorous -3.7 (range 4.4-7.2)

Glucose - 160 (range 80-150)

Globulin - 2.1 (range 2.9-4.9)

Bacteroides ("few colonies") and Steptococci ("abundant growth") also found.

Earlier 6/08 Test Results:

WBC - 2.5 (range 4.0-10.0)

HCT - 32 (range of 35-50)

Heterophil count - 775 (range of 2275-9750)

SGPT (ALT) - 53 (range of 10-45)

Alkaline Phosphatase - 55 (range of 4-20)

Albumin - 4.7 (range of 2.4-4.5)

Glucose - 163 (range of 80-150)

Potassium - 6.1 (range of 4.3-5.8)

Globulin - 2.1 (range of 2.9-4.9)

7/08 Test Results:

MCH - 21.9 (range 12.5-17.5)

MCHC - 31 (range 32-36)

SGPT (ALT) - 56 (range 10-45)

Alkaline Phosphatase - 44 (range 4-20)

Albumin - 4.8 (range of 2.4-4.5)

Glucose - 159 (range of 80-150)

Globulin -2.1 (range of 2.9-4.9)

Here is a statement from Dana Krempels PhD I have found (well known rabbit vet): "Chronic infection can cause an elevation in liver enzymes, so a vet is wise to try antibiotics, even if there was no obvious infection."

Is Dr. K. a vet, or is she a doctor in terms ofhaving her Ph.D. in Biology (and happens to know a lot about rabbits)? I think it's the latter, but I could be wrong. Either way, I know of her; she shared her thoughts with meregarding Zoe's megaolon-ish symptoms.

I know combined with excessive thirst this can point to E. cuniculi, which can cause kidney and liver damage.

What's confusing is that, as JadeIcing's pointed out, Emma's thirst level may be considered "normal.":?

PM your vets info to me if you like, I will pass it on to my vet tomorrow when I call her (hopefully she returns my call this time and I can actually SPEAK to her) but I;m sure we will figure this out....The liver enzymes point to it, along with cyclical relapse.

Will do. (I'll e-mail my vet, giving him the head's-up ofa possible call fromfrom your vet.)

If it could be so easy as to be a treatable infection for both of our bunners, I'd be stoked.