JimD
Well-Known Member
ray:
Pipp Has Major Poopy Butt :(
- Thread starter Pipp
- Start date
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pamnock
Well-Known Member
It's very possible Pipp's illness was viralrelated (SAS was sick, weather has changed and we're going to see morecases of stasis during this time of year - sometimes due to rotavirus).
I've found Nutri Cal to be excellent to have on hand.
Pam
I've found Nutri Cal to be excellent to have on hand.
Pam
Pipp
Well-Known Member
Well, we have six... count 'em, six...:bunnybutt:...... poops. (Most ofthem stuck to her bum, but I'll take it).
Just tried feeding her the hay slurry again, don't think she got toomuch. I, however, ended up with a ton of the ton of it --head to toe. (I have to remember that the trick is to let herclean it off her CHEST, not her foot. Thosefrontfoot flicks are a lethal weapon!)
I'm exhausted. Really needsleep.
Rosie, LOVE that photo of Flower, thank you!
MBH, Pipp doesn't eat hay, and that leaves her open to a gutfloraimbalance if she eats too many pellets, oats or anynumber of things. She mostly has to eat veggies to try andmake up for the lack of fiber. I've been sick so she gotfewer veggies and more pellets, and probably a few double doses of oatsin my stupor, and without the hay to provide fiber, it sends her into aspin -- a serious case of 'poopy butt' -- cecal dysbiosis -- which inturn leads to stasis. That's why vets stronglyrecommend against giving bunnies food or treats with a lot ofcarbohydrates/sugars and why they push hay as a main dietarysource.
Unfortunately, Pipp refuses to listen to them.:disgust: It's doubly unfortunate that the cure for cecaldysbiosis is at least a temporary diet of just hay and water, and whenyou have a bunny who won't eat hay, curing the problem isaproblem.
Angela, I really should at least try the hay pellets, but I dont' thinkshe'll go for it. She only eats the Oxbow when there'sabsolutely nothing else to eat (except hay), so I'm not holding mybreath. Hay cubes didn't work.
And btw, I actually tried eating some of thepellets.I was looking at the ingredients andnoticed that the Oxbow had cane molassas, sure enough, there's a touchof sweetness to them. Yet the ones she really likes are theMartins Less Active, which have no sweetness, they taste like...well... hay! Go figure!
Silly bunny. :craziness (Heck, sillysas!!):craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness
More updates tomorrow, thanks all.
sas
Just tried feeding her the hay slurry again, don't think she got toomuch. I, however, ended up with a ton of the ton of it --head to toe. (I have to remember that the trick is to let herclean it off her CHEST, not her foot. Thosefrontfoot flicks are a lethal weapon!)
I'm exhausted. Really needsleep.
Rosie, LOVE that photo of Flower, thank you!
MBH, Pipp doesn't eat hay, and that leaves her open to a gutfloraimbalance if she eats too many pellets, oats or anynumber of things. She mostly has to eat veggies to try andmake up for the lack of fiber. I've been sick so she gotfewer veggies and more pellets, and probably a few double doses of oatsin my stupor, and without the hay to provide fiber, it sends her into aspin -- a serious case of 'poopy butt' -- cecal dysbiosis -- which inturn leads to stasis. That's why vets stronglyrecommend against giving bunnies food or treats with a lot ofcarbohydrates/sugars and why they push hay as a main dietarysource.
Unfortunately, Pipp refuses to listen to them.:disgust: It's doubly unfortunate that the cure for cecaldysbiosis is at least a temporary diet of just hay and water, and whenyou have a bunny who won't eat hay, curing the problem isaproblem.
Angela, I really should at least try the hay pellets, but I dont' thinkshe'll go for it. She only eats the Oxbow when there'sabsolutely nothing else to eat (except hay), so I'm not holding mybreath. Hay cubes didn't work.
And btw, I actually tried eating some of thepellets.I was looking at the ingredients andnoticed that the Oxbow had cane molassas, sure enough, there's a touchof sweetness to them. Yet the ones she really likes are theMartins Less Active, which have no sweetness, they taste like...well... hay! Go figure!
Silly bunny. :craziness (Heck, sillysas!!):craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness:craziness
More updates tomorrow, thanks all.
sas
Pipp
Well-Known Member
pamnock wrote:
I got Nutri-Cal from the vet, but if it was Cecal Dysbiosis caused bythe diet, I wasn't sure if I should be adding more carbs to themix. I was afraid both pumpkin and Nutri-Cal might make itworse.
The last time she had something like this it was after she broke intothe oat drawer. This time she missed a day's salad andprobably got a little shortchanged for a few days. I can'tbelieve she's THAT sensitive.
Can they test for viruses? Iforget. Herfecal float was negative, I wasn't sure it would be considering how badher excretions smelled. They didn't draw blood.
sas
Hey Pam, I was wondering about that. I'm not totally sure itwas the lack of greens, but it certainly did start with bad poopybutt.
I got Nutri-Cal from the vet, but if it was Cecal Dysbiosis caused bythe diet, I wasn't sure if I should be adding more carbs to themix. I was afraid both pumpkin and Nutri-Cal might make itworse.
The last time she had something like this it was after she broke intothe oat drawer. This time she missed a day's salad andprobably got a little shortchanged for a few days. I can'tbelieve she's THAT sensitive.
Can they test for viruses? Iforget. Herfecal float was negative, I wasn't sure it would be considering how badher excretions smelled. They didn't draw blood.
sas
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Viral testing can often be expensive and therearen't tests for all viruses - the fact that viruses mutate so quicklyalso makes it difficult for lab tests to keep up. Just aswhen we have the a virus, the doctor is more concerned about supportivetreatment rather than identifying the viral strain (unless there is apotentially fatal virus going around). Also, most vets don'thave the ability for extensive viral testing at their facility.
This website helps to give an idea of the testing available andcosts. Not all tests are available to private owners, howevermany universitys or the state vet may have testing labs.
Rotavirus is one of the more common GIpathogens that cancause "poops". Coccidia overgrowth is not uncommon when arabbit is suffering from rotavirus. E coli can also takeadvantage of the rabbit's suppressed immune system.
More info on rotavirus
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=266491
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=2833612
Not that the simian strains that infect humans can also be contracted by rabbits.
I've used Nutri Cal extensively on rabbits with GI issues and found ittoo be very effective. Overuse can cause carb overload - alittle goes a long way!
I'm not saying that Pipp has rotavirus - just suggesting it as a possibility.
Pam
This website helps to give an idea of the testing available andcosts. Not all tests are available to private owners, howevermany universitys or the state vet may have testing labs.
Rotavirus is one of the more common GIpathogens that cancause "poops". Coccidia overgrowth is not uncommon when arabbit is suffering from rotavirus. E coli can also takeadvantage of the rabbit's suppressed immune system.
More info on rotavirus
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=266491
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=2833612
Not that the simian strains that infect humans can also be contracted by rabbits.
I've used Nutri Cal extensively on rabbits with GI issues and found ittoo be very effective. Overuse can cause carb overload - alittle goes a long way!
I'm not saying that Pipp has rotavirus - just suggesting it as a possibility.
Pam
Bassetluv
Well-Known Member
:bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance
onedancing bunny for each Pipp ball!) May Pipp continue to process bigger and better poops, Sas...!
And I hope you can get some much-needed rest soon too. :hug1
Pipp wrote:
My first thought is "discomfort" with the idea that a hay-only diet isthe only way to treat this problem. It may be the bestcourse of action, but it is nearly impossible to force-feed hay, soif you can't coax the bunny to eat it (even "hand-feeding" a strand ata time -- this is worth a try!), then there needs to be a "Plan B."
What diagnostics were done? Hopefully a thorough exam (ears, teeth,body temp) and GI xrays? If there was no GI blockage, most vets will goahead and prescribe Reglan. Yes, in a way, it seems counter-intuitiveto give motility drugs if the symptom is "diarrhea", but the importantthings is to get the gut moving "normally."
As I'm typing this myinstinct is going back to possible teethproblems. Pipp's a dwarf, right? They are the #1 breed tohave molar problems (lops are a close second). Remember, stasis isoften a symptom rather than the root problem. Insomefriend'srabbits over the years, I would say 75% of the stasisproblems have had a root cause of tooth problems.
Was pain medication given? Again, in many rabbitsthis isoften part of the problem ... relieving pain makes them want to eatagain, leading back to the road to recovery.
I'm with Pamnock about the NutriCal. I followed her greatadvice with that stuff many times and *knock on wood* have had greatsuccess with it.
Praying harder for you both to get better!
-Carolyn
We're home. She won't come out of her carrier, soI'm not sure how she's doing -- other than she's not very happy withme. She was washing herself and licking the towel,so she's not toolethargic, which is good. No poopsthough.
They said she actually ate some Critical Care while she was there --which is stunning. She's always absolutely hated thestuff.
The vet, like me, is at a loss about whatto do for a bunny who won't eat hay.
He started off being a bit of ajerk (like my vet can besometimes), saying 'whatare cecals? I don't know what thatis', when I told him I wasn't sure if her 'diarrhea was real poop orcecals. (Of course he knew I was referring to'cecotropes', but I guess he thought he'd put me in my place ormake me squirm or something). Anyhoo, when I answeredthatI was referring to the cecal matter from her CecalDysbiosis problem, he got down to business. (For those notfollowing this earlier, Cecal Dysbiosys is basically 'poopy butt'caused by high carbs/protein and lack of fibre throwing off the gutflora).
He thinks it is a problem treating a bunny with CD withanything other than hay and water. He has no idea about thepumpkin, either,he thought it was a very interestingquestion. It's something that really needs to beresearched. I'm going to see if Dana Krempelshas anopinion, but seeing as she didn't answer the Etherbun query butanswered other questions posted around the same time, I suspect she hasno opinion. We agreed that given the carbs, for now, I won'tgive her any. The high-fibre pellet slurry ispreferable.Pedialyte is fine, I guess the hydrationoffsets any adverse affects. (Angela and Carolyn were right).:thumbup
The hay slurry idea didn't work, even though the vet said he did it allthe time when he suggested it. He left and had his staff workon the mix, and they couldn't get it blended, so they used CriticalCare.
She's been prescribed Metronidazole and Cisapride (the latter maybeonly because I asked about it). And she'll get syringe fed aslurry -- justtwo or three cc's every couple ofhours. (I think the total is 36 cc's every 12 hours --72every 24 hours).
They did give her a SubQ with vitamins. And I finally got atube of Nutri-Cal, I was going to use it to spruce up the slurry,although I forgot about the carbs, so now I'm not so sure aboutthat. I'll have to ask tomorrow. They were going togive me a new probiotic (I think), but they didn't put it in thebag. I've gotAcidophilus here, so I'll use that.
Meanwhile, I was getting odd looks on my way there and back, and I justlooked in the mirror and realized I have huge red splotches all over myface, not sure that that's all about. I'm still notfeeling so hot. Hopefully it's just from being overtired,it's not the measles or something. (No wonder Ihada seat to myself on a crowded bus!).
Damage to date: $315 plus $32 for the two cabrides. (I took the bus, but of course, can't have that forthe little princess).
I'll check back in after we try a feeding -- if I remain upright that long.
sas :zzzzzand pipp :imsick:
My first thought is "discomfort" with the idea that a hay-only diet isthe only way to treat this problem. It may be the bestcourse of action, but it is nearly impossible to force-feed hay, soif you can't coax the bunny to eat it (even "hand-feeding" a strand ata time -- this is worth a try!), then there needs to be a "Plan B."
What diagnostics were done? Hopefully a thorough exam (ears, teeth,body temp) and GI xrays? If there was no GI blockage, most vets will goahead and prescribe Reglan. Yes, in a way, it seems counter-intuitiveto give motility drugs if the symptom is "diarrhea", but the importantthings is to get the gut moving "normally."
As I'm typing this myinstinct is going back to possible teethproblems. Pipp's a dwarf, right? They are the #1 breed tohave molar problems (lops are a close second). Remember, stasis isoften a symptom rather than the root problem. Insomefriend'srabbits over the years, I would say 75% of the stasisproblems have had a root cause of tooth problems.
Was pain medication given? Again, in many rabbitsthis isoften part of the problem ... relieving pain makes them want to eatagain, leading back to the road to recovery.
I'm with Pamnock about the NutriCal. I followed her greatadvice with that stuff many times and *knock on wood* have had greatsuccess with it.
Praying harder for you both to get better!
-Carolyn
Haley
Well-Known Member
Ive also been wondering, are her pellets timothy based?
Max has been off hay for about 8 months now and we've had no problems. Just wondering..
Max has been off hay for about 8 months now and we've had no problems. Just wondering..
JimD
Well-Known Member
Pipp wrote:
:happydance
naturestee
Well-Known Member
Yay! Poop!!!!!!!
I signed on just to check on Pipp, and I'm so glad she pooped a little!
SAS, I wonder if you should start forcing her to eat the Oxbow a littlemore? She might not like it but it has a lot more fiber thanMartins. Maybe you could try American Pet Diner timothypellets, in case she likes those more. They have similarnutrition to Oxbow but might taste different.
I looked up the info on the 100% hay pellets, and there are severalvarieties including timothy, orchard grass, alfalfa, andmixes. The alfalfa/grass hay mixes still have low protein sothey might not be bad for a supplement if she'll eat them. Ieven found a supplier in BC through their website, maybe they can shipto you? It would probably be cheaper than shipping from theUS.
Del's Farm Supply, Inc. Abbotsford, BC604-556-7477Here's the website of the company that makes the pellets.
http://www.sterettbroshayandfeed.com/index.shtml
Carolyn, Pipp has a history of molar spurs and had to have her molarsfiled several times last year. But to my knowledge her teethproblems never start with cecal issues so this sounds different.
I signed on just to check on Pipp, and I'm so glad she pooped a little!
SAS, I wonder if you should start forcing her to eat the Oxbow a littlemore? She might not like it but it has a lot more fiber thanMartins. Maybe you could try American Pet Diner timothypellets, in case she likes those more. They have similarnutrition to Oxbow but might taste different.
I looked up the info on the 100% hay pellets, and there are severalvarieties including timothy, orchard grass, alfalfa, andmixes. The alfalfa/grass hay mixes still have low protein sothey might not be bad for a supplement if she'll eat them. Ieven found a supplier in BC through their website, maybe they can shipto you? It would probably be cheaper than shipping from theUS.
Del's Farm Supply, Inc. Abbotsford, BC604-556-7477Here's the website of the company that makes the pellets.
http://www.sterettbroshayandfeed.com/index.shtml
Carolyn, Pipp has a history of molar spurs and had to have her molarsfiled several times last year. But to my knowledge her teethproblems never start with cecal issues so this sounds different.
naturestee wrote:
You make a good point and have given some great advice in thisthread. I recall when Tucker started his severe case of GIStasis a couple of years ago, it started with excess cecals aswell.
-Carolyn
Didn't know Pipp had a history of molar spurs. Understandcompletely where you're coming from with the cecal issues, at thispoint I'm more about just trying totroubleshoothowto get the littlebabeto start eatingagain. :?
You make a good point and have given some great advice in thisthread. I recall when Tucker started his severe case of GIStasis a couple of years ago, it started with excess cecals aswell.
-Carolyn
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Carolyn wrote:
Glad to see you hear today Carolyn - hope all is well with you.
I agree that pain management should be a priority in supportive treatment.
Pam
Glad to see you hear today Carolyn - hope all is well with you.
I agree that pain management should be a priority in supportive treatment.
Pam
pamnock wrote:
Thanks for saying hi, Pam. It's always nice to hear from you,Dear Heart. I know you remember when Tucks had his bout withGI Stasis and how he had all those cecals. Asamatter of fact, it was you that remembered it in hindsight after westarted trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
I'm out now, though. It's snowing here and I'm going to gethome before it gets bad out. I know that SAS and Pipp are ingood hands here.
Good luck and I will be thinking of you and everyone helping you out,Sorelle and Pipp. I hope and pray that by the end of the day,you'll have enough Pipp Poop to fertilize all yourhouseplants.
-Carolyn
Thanks for saying hi, Pam. It's always nice to hear from you,Dear Heart. I know you remember when Tucks had his bout withGI Stasis and how he had all those cecals. Asamatter of fact, it was you that remembered it in hindsight after westarted trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
I'm out now, though. It's snowing here and I'm going to gethome before it gets bad out. I know that SAS and Pipp are ingood hands here.
Good luck and I will be thinking of you and everyone helping you out,Sorelle and Pipp. I hope and pray that by the end of the day,you'll have enough Pipp Poop to fertilize all yourhouseplants.
-Carolyn
aurora369
Well-Known Member
SAS, do you want me to go pick up some haypellets at the store in Abby?? I think Ryan may be going outthat way tonight, so I might be able to get to the store.
I wouldn't mind seeing how my guys like it, it may be a good supplementto their regular pellets, especially since Wildfire has a weightproblem.
I'll give you a call when I figure out what's going on tonight.
Nice find Naturestee! Abbotsford is about an hour or so outof Vancouver, and the store happens to be very close to where myboyfriend goes to school.
--Dawn
I wouldn't mind seeing how my guys like it, it may be a good supplementto their regular pellets, especially since Wildfire has a weightproblem.
I'll give you a call when I figure out what's going on tonight.
Nice find Naturestee! Abbotsford is about an hour or so outof Vancouver, and the store happens to be very close to where myboyfriend goes to school.
--Dawn
I used to mix hay pellets in Cookie's regulatpellets when he refused to eat hay. At first he picked aroundthem, but he started eating a few. Might not hurt as shelikes her pellets that taste like hay anyway...
_________
Nadia
_________
Nadia
Pipp
Well-Known Member
I can't seem to sleep more than three hours anight (which is probably what's making me sicker), so pardon me if thispost doesn'tmake much sense.
Angela, great find re: the pellets, and Dawn, yes, I'd love to givethem a try. (Well, feed them to Pipp. After eatinga couple, I've decided bunny pellets arenot my cup of tea).
Nadia, yes, that's exactly how I got Pipp eating the Oxbow in the firstplace, mixing a few in -- I put three three kinds of pellets in herbowl and slowly increased the good ones, she started picking at themwhen the others were gone. Now she'll eat themall-- eventually.
Carolyn, Pipp did have tummy xrays, fecal float, I think they took hertemp (although I'd been keeping her warm, so moot point), but nobloodwork or head xrays. She was prescribed Reglan(Metoclopramide) AND Cisapride (and now I'm wondering why hegave her both).
Pipp normally stops eatingveggies when herspursreappear, although she keeps eating pellets for awhile,then stops everything cold. The last time she had the cecalmatter issues was an overdose of oats.
However, both stasis AND cecal dysbiosis are symptoms, notcauses,so you're right there. I neverthought of that before -- the spurs previously caused a change in dietas noted above, but the symptoms were anorexia leading to stasis, notcecal dysbiosis, so now I'm even less sure it was strictly the dietissue this time. I'm leaning more towards the possibilty of avirus. The fact that she doesn't eat hay makes hermore susceptible to diet changes and bugs affecting her GI tract, I'msure.
(She did have a period of hyperactivity in the early stages of the CD,I know I read somewhere that that was a symptom of something, but Idon't remember what. She also increased her water intake).
But as you said, the bottom line is really treating the symptoms at themoment. Whatever caused it,we have to get hereating again.
Thanks for all the help and support, guys, you're all awesome! :hug:
I'm letting Pipp get some sleep. (One of us has to). I'll update later.
sas
Angela, great find re: the pellets, and Dawn, yes, I'd love to givethem a try. (Well, feed them to Pipp. After eatinga couple, I've decided bunny pellets arenot my cup of tea).
Nadia, yes, that's exactly how I got Pipp eating the Oxbow in the firstplace, mixing a few in -- I put three three kinds of pellets in herbowl and slowly increased the good ones, she started picking at themwhen the others were gone. Now she'll eat themall-- eventually.
Carolyn, Pipp did have tummy xrays, fecal float, I think they took hertemp (although I'd been keeping her warm, so moot point), but nobloodwork or head xrays. She was prescribed Reglan(Metoclopramide) AND Cisapride (and now I'm wondering why hegave her both).
Pipp normally stops eatingveggies when herspursreappear, although she keeps eating pellets for awhile,then stops everything cold. The last time she had the cecalmatter issues was an overdose of oats.
However, both stasis AND cecal dysbiosis are symptoms, notcauses,so you're right there. I neverthought of that before -- the spurs previously caused a change in dietas noted above, but the symptoms were anorexia leading to stasis, notcecal dysbiosis, so now I'm even less sure it was strictly the dietissue this time. I'm leaning more towards the possibilty of avirus. The fact that she doesn't eat hay makes hermore susceptible to diet changes and bugs affecting her GI tract, I'msure.
(She did have a period of hyperactivity in the early stages of the CD,I know I read somewhere that that was a symptom of something, but Idon't remember what. She also increased her water intake).
But as you said, the bottom line is really treating the symptoms at themoment. Whatever caused it,we have to get hereating again.
Thanks for all the help and support, guys, you're all awesome! :hug:
I'm letting Pipp get some sleep. (One of us has to). I'll update later.
sas
maherwoman
Well-Known Member
YAY POOPS!!!!!
arty0002::litterhealthy:arty0002:
Oh, sing a song rejoicing of poops!!!! :singing:
Keep fighting, little Pipp!!!:boxing
And SAS, you're very welcome for the picture. Itvery much shows what we're doing over here for you both.
:heartbeat:
arty0002::litterhealthy:arty0002:Oh, sing a song rejoicing of poops!!!! :singing:
Keep fighting, little Pipp!!!:boxing
And SAS, you're very welcome for the picture. Itvery much shows what we're doing over here for you both.
:heartbeat:
aurora369
Well-Known Member
I called around a bit, and most stores onlycarry the alfafa hay pellets. The fiber is not as high as thetimothy ones.
I e-mailed the Sterett Bros. Hay and Feed company, hoping they'll getback to me about a place I can get some of the timothy or orchardpellets.
The feed store I normally go to has the alfafa pellets, but I don't think they would be that great.
If a place that sells the hay pellets with in a couple hours drivingdistance, I would love to pick some up. So I'm hoping that Ican find some place. But it may have to wait till I'm doneschool, I don't have that much time to be calling around to find some.
--Dawn
I e-mailed the Sterett Bros. Hay and Feed company, hoping they'll getback to me about a place I can get some of the timothy or orchardpellets.
The feed store I normally go to has the alfafa pellets, but I don't think they would be that great.
If a place that sells the hay pellets with in a couple hours drivingdistance, I would love to pick some up. So I'm hoping that Ican find some place. But it may have to wait till I'm doneschool, I don't have that much time to be calling around to find some.
--Dawn
jordiwes
Well-Known Member
Let me know if there's anywhere I can call...
What should I ask for?
What should I ask for?
aurora369
Well-Known Member
The link that Angela posted was to a supplier ofpelleted hay, the timothy and orchard ones look awesome, full of fiber(close to 30%) and low on protein (about 10%).
If you want to call around and ask if anyone carries some pelleted hay,and find out what the nutritional values of the pellets are.If there is anyplace between Vancouver and Chilliwack, I can go andpick up some pellets tonight as I'm heading out that way anyways.
Most places seem to only carry the alfafa pellets. But if thenutritional values are okay, it may be worth a try. I thinkthe timothy or orchard pellets would be really nice though.
--Dawn
If you want to call around and ask if anyone carries some pelleted hay,and find out what the nutritional values of the pellets are.If there is anyplace between Vancouver and Chilliwack, I can go andpick up some pellets tonight as I'm heading out that way anyways.
Most places seem to only carry the alfafa pellets. But if thenutritional values are okay, it may be worth a try. I thinkthe timothy or orchard pellets would be really nice though.
--Dawn
