Peg's Lionhead thread / babies/ moms & more

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I think its my heart that is "broken" because Icant havethem all! :inlove:hehe

They are so adorable Peg. How do you ever get anything done at home? I would just sit and play with the babies all day!
 
Um.....did I ever claim to get anything done? :shock:


Just kidding.

My favorite of those brokens for looks is Butterscotch's little boywith the butterfly nose. He loves to jump on his mama to look out thewindow and he is just a little hoot.

But for personality - I have to say "Thumper" is my favorite and eventhough she doesn't have the butterfly on the nose - I am toying withthe idea of keeping her because attitude means a lot to me about myrabbits.

I'm glad you liked seeing them. I have two more litters due in a month and then that is it for a while...

My goal though is to have one litter of brokens per month as people really seem to love them as pets.

Peg
 
First - a verbal update on the litters. I also want to take some better photos.

The first litter I'd shared about were Calypso's. I think all but oneof them were adopted over the weekend from my list of people waiting onlionheads. Believe it or not - the one that is left- is the chinchillathat was so adorable. I will try to get photos later today. Idid not keep any from this litter for a couple of reasons..one reasonwas blacks are hard to sell to other breeders and chinchilla is not anormally showable color. Another reason is that while the litter wasvery very cute, I've discovered that daddy carried what is called the"chm" gene - which is undesirable in lionheads. The only thing that is"safe" from his babies are the himis (pointed whites) that I got -beacsue other than that - if I were to sell the offspring...I couldcause color problems down the road in someone else's herd. So almostall fo his offspring are going to pet homes (including Butterscotch'sbroken lionheads). Haley - I wish you were here to take the broken tortbuck. He is beyond hilarious - and truth be told - I'm thinking aboutkeeping him and testbreeding him to see if he carries that gene.....Ijust really like him a lot.

So anyway - I will have to get photos of Calypso's chinchilla later. I like the litter...it wasn't outstanding but it was nice.

Remember how I said I didn't are for Nadia's litter? Well kick me inthe rear. The ugly ducklings are turning into right fine critters. Oneis definitely pet quality - one is showable (I think) - two are breedquality for reason I'll go into when I share their litter photos.

I also had shared Romance's litter - they were looking at the screenand asking where their photos were? Well let me tell you - all three ofthese rabbits turned out VERY nice. I think as you see the litter -you'll see why I say they are nice. Unfortunately, their dad is thebuck who carries that "chm" chinchilla gene...meaning...unless I keepone of the tort bucks and testbreed him (which I may do)...the two tortbucks will go as pets. The himi (I had thought it was a REW but it is ahimi or pointed white) is definitely staying.

So ... let's start off the photos ... shall we?

Next post...

Peg
 
Nadia's litter...here goes...

The dad is Island's Cousteau - a fairly nice buck who is somewhat knownamong lionhead breeders. Last year at lionhead Nationals, with almostno mane - he took 9th place out of 24 senior tortoise bucks. Why?Because of his body type.


Two tortoise does. The one on the left is pet quality - see how theears are lopping? The one on the right has nicer ears - she isdefinitely breeder/brood quality and could become show quality as shematures.

Family photo: sable point doe, tort doe, sable point buck, tort doe

Once again - see those airplane ears? This should NOT be....for showthat is. She is definitely pet quality in looks - but she's adorableand will be very happy in a pet home.

I wish I could get a better photo of this doe...I am watching her.


This is a doe. You notice how I'm not showing you the other side of herface? She had an eye infection when she was young and so her eye iscloudy. The best she could be is a breeder doe because of this and mostfolks would not want her as a pet.

She is most likely going to stay here and breed for us sometimes....butmainly be loved on. She can still see out of her eye - but most folkswho would look at it would be upset to see the cloudiness init. Hence, I am "creative" in her photos.

Same doe. I love her face


Here is the buck - by the way - the green in the ear is marker. I hadlet them down to play one day (3 different litters) and each litter gota different color marker in the ear. It made for a lot of work but theywere so sick of being in cages...they NEEDED to play.

I'm trying to show his type here. I am not sure if he will go as abreeder or as a pet. He won't be show as Nadia overgroomed one of hisfeet when he was born and he is missing part of a toe. Most pet ownerswon't like that - some won't care. When he is sitting in his cage, Ican see that he looks nice - but posing for the camera is another thing.

I really was afraid that this litter would turn out bad after seeintheir narrow triangular faces. I will say I'm happy though. Cousteauusually throws "pretty" kits in the face. I think that it was mom whomade this litter not as nice looking....and I'm not sure that mom anddad were a good match. I'm not planning on repeating this breeding as Idon't think it will produce the quality of kits I want.

End result: Out of 4 - 1 is showable. Two are broodquality - might have been showable if not for minor things...

Grade: C+ They're a bit better than average....but not the best.
 
Aww I love them all.
 
Here is Romance's litter:

Here are the torts first:

Tort buck #2 - I love his coloring


and his face

aw...come on...you know you want to see his face...right?

Now for Buck #1

Surely you recognize this pose from earlier posts? He FINALLY has his picture up here again....

He got his nose in something (dust, etc) on Eric's desk so I washesitant to post this...I didn't see it of course until after I put thephotos on my computer



In order to use one or both of these guys...I'm going to have to breedthem to a Himilayan. If I get himilayans...then the buck is safe touse. If not....I need to pet him out.

Speaking of himilayans...want to meet Eureka?

He is the himilayan buck from this same litter. I had him out on mydesk the other night to play with him a bit and have him get used tobeing handled...and he thinks he rules the roost...

I'll let you see what I mean...


This is what I saw as I left to do some things in the rabbitry - he was supposed to be IN the box but he wanted out for a bit.


This was what I saw when I came back..

Now for a couple of better photos of him...


Ok mama...I suppose I can look nice for the camera...


"Oh God. I heard mama saying something about breeding and being usedwith the girls. Please God...can you have her pick me for that - andcan you have it be soon? I think I'd LIKE being a breeder buck here.."


How would I grade this litter?

Looks & coloring - Definitely an A
If Himi was a showable color - I'd have two showable rabbits- possiblythree depending upon how his points continue to come in. Butdefinitely two out of three.

If they don't carry dad's "chm" gene - they're easily top graderabbits. But once again...I can't risk someone else's herd unlessthey're testbred first.

So either I take these two guys to compete and bring them home totestbreed them and then sell them next year as 'proven' (forbreeders)....OR....I sell them as pets.

I'm looking at cage space - watching them develop and continuing to consider what to do. They are looking even nicer now.

Would I do this breeding again? No. But only because of the "chm" gene.However, I might take the himilayan buck back to his mother this comingyear to set the type and mane and work on linebreeding. He is nice.

Peg




 
Now I'm going to share some photos of a litterthat I thought was REW at first....but turned out to be himilayan. Thepoints are just now coming in. Once again...they are coming from thebuck who carries that "chm" gene. This is the only litter from himwhere I can truly sell the litter and not worry about someone else'sherd.

Mama is a Siamese Sable named Padme' - her dad was a lilac and her momwas a sable point. I say this because it means that depending upon whatthe buck carries - I could get black himilayans, chocolate himilayans,blue himilayans and lilac himilayans. Because the father has given metorts and what mother is - I can also get himilayans which are called"ee" himilayans or pointed whites. These may not show their points well(they're not) - but they can be used to clean up a breeding program ofsable points and torts which have turned smutty with age.

Whoops - I only have two of them on photobucket right now and I'm sortof tired (got two hours of sleep last night) and I don't feel likefinding and uploading photos there right now. So I'll share the photosof the two that are showing their points the best...










I tend to believe right now that the darker one is a chocolate himi andthe lighter one could be a lilac himi - but I have to wait longer tosee how they develop. The darker one is a doe - the lighter one is abuck.

My thoughts on this litter?

Well - 3 of the 5 are nice and I am considering keeping them andworking with them. It helps that I *may* have chocolate in there as Iwant to work with chocolate. I learned that the mom carries himi andthat was important as I didn't know it.

I think I'd probably give this litter a "B". They're better than average...but not outstanding.

I won't repeat it due to dad - but I will either take a himi buck fromthis litter - or Romance's Himi buck...back to the doe for her nextbreeding. However, that won't be for a while....

Peg
 
Now - I want to share photos of a gem that showed up in a litter - so you can see what I'm looking for.

I bred that "chm" buck to a chestnut doe...and got a blue doe in thelitter of five. When I ran the genetics through a calculator with mypedigree program - I had 1.17% chance of getting a blue.

Now - I know the mama. She was my first homegrown BOB winner. She is asingle mane lionhead that is long in the body and has large ears.BUT...she keeps her mane. For those who have seen my lionhead thread -her dad is Harry (aka Stud Muffin). He also keeps his mane and it comesin nicer with every molt. Because I know so much about her mane and thegenetics behind the mama - I think I'm keeping this girl.

This is what I'm looking for in lionheads.

First of all - see her type:





She has a nice body. Still a tad bit long...but she can compete. Herears are a bit long...but I swear they are shrinking every day becauseher mane is coming in and balancing things out.

Speaking of mane...







Sorry about the tongue in the 3rd picture. Maybe she wasn't happy with me.

She is what I would call a "keeper". I am going to have to breed her toa himilayan buck. Then, I am going to have to take a himilayan from thelitter and use that in my herd (if she throws any himilayans).

If I don't get a himilayan from the litter - then I will need to takebabies from that litter (which will be himilayan carriers) and breedTHEM to himilayans and that litter will be safe to work with.

But basically - if she gives me himilayans when bred to a himilayan....then she will be safe for me to work with directly.

This rabbit makes me feel like I'm getting closer to my goal. I'mtrying to think of a name that uses blue or means blue - for her name.

Peg

 
Azure is blue in spanish. I have a book of names. I could look if you want.
 
Since this is my thread and I can get up on a soapbox...I'm going to do so.

First of all - if you want to adopt a bunny - please check a shelternear your first to see if they have what you want. Remember to look atthe personality of the bunny and not just its looks. OK?

But many people (myself included) prefer to adopt from areputable breeder. A breeder will know about this historybehind your rabbit - they should know what your rabbit likes/dislikesand any potential health issues. A good breeder (in my mind) will askyou to return the rabbit to them vs. turning it into a shelter. If needbe, I will take back a rabbit and keep it quarantined in a two-holecarrier for 2 weeks or longer before bringing it near my otherrabbits...just so I can find it a good home. I'm here for therabbits...not for the money or for the buyer. I HAVE turned down buyersand refused to sell. I believe reputable breeders will refuse sales ifthey feel it is not in the best interest of the rabbit.

But how do you know if a breeder is reputable? Besides maybe askingother breeders and then hoping they steered you in the right direction?

Well first of all - please don't ask to see our rabbitries unless wevolunteer. You put us on the spot and many breeders (myself included)will not usually allow people into the rabbitry at just any time. WhenI have does expecting - I will NOT allow anyone into the rabbitry.Sorry...but I will not get that doe nervous because of new scents fromvisitors.

But ask questions like:

a. How often do you breed your does? Do you do "back to back"breedings and will I have a long wait if I want a rabbit from aspecific doe?

b. How many litters do you have per month? How many litters will your doe have in a year?

To me - these are important questions. In fact, as a breeder, I've cometo the belief and conclusion that even though some of the top lionheadbreeders in the nation do back-to-back breeding - I will not only notdo it - but I will not buy from them in the future. I just don'tbelieve it is necessary.

My goal is to have 3 - or at most 4 - litters from my does per year.Three litters means they get pregnant (1 month) have the litter withthem (2 months) and get a month off to rest before getting bred again.Four litters per year means they don't get that month off to rest...butthey do have that month that they are pregnant where they are at leastnot nursing. That is good.

With that said - I did do a few back to back breedings this time forNationals. When I found out that the genetics of my one buck made manyrabbits pet quality so I wouldn't mess up the herds of others - andbecause I had waiting lists for kits from certain does or certain typesof kits (brokens) - I did breed does back when their kits were a monthold and they were still with them...and I weaned the kits two weeksearly...although these does were weaning them themselves at a month(even before I bred them).

But I don't usually do that with my does and I can guarantee you thatafter their next litter - these does will have at least a couple ofmonths off to rest - if not longer than that.

So you want to ask about how often the breeder breeds.

But you also want to ask what their goals are for their rabbits(besides wining on the show tables). Are they looking to improvesomething in their herd?

If their answer is something like, "Well, I just sort of put themtogether to see what I get" or "I don't feel I need anyimprovements"....I would tend to back off.

Most of the breeders I know, respect, and deal with will say somethinglike, "Well, I am doing good in this but I need to work onthat..".

If they say something like that - it means they are probably thinkingthrough their choices - why they're doing certain breedings...and tome- that means a lot.

The final thing I look for - is how do they talk about their rabbits?Are they "things" or do I hear a note of tenderness in their voice asthey talk about them? Do they have certain favorites?

Now - it isn't as if a breeder isnt' good if they don't do those things- but these are things *I* look for to help be think that the rabbitshave been cared for.

Well, I must run.....mama holland still hasn't had her babies - but Idecided that today instead of putting some mama lionheads on therabbitry floor to play (nice thing about having my rabbitry in thesunroom)....I've put SIXTEEN babies in there to let them play and letmamas have the cage.

That's right -I've put Butterscotch's brokens....Sundae's brokens.....adn the himis ... down on the floor to play..

Of course...I have to go in there with bowl ofcheerios....and sit on the floor. I want them to crawl all ove rme andI want to keep an eye on them as some other does are playing andsometimes don't take well to having little ones want to come up andcralw all over them...

Peg


 
Peg, I absolutely love that blue doe! Can I have her? Pretty pretty please? Wait, no, stop me now!

And great advice, btw! It's so hard to know what to ask about breeders and what you should be looking for.
 
I kind of felt funny posting that - but thething is....I honestly believe that your rabbit's life starts at birthand how it gets treated in the nestbox and in the rabbitry is going toaffect how it handles the adjustment to being adopted. I also believethat the health of mama will affect it.

Now I know there are top-notch breeders who will disagree on somethings - like "back to back" breeding. This can be one of two or threethings:

a. Have mama give birth. Foster off the babies to a lowerquality mama that also gave birth at the same time and turn around andrebreed mama. I know of breeders who do this.

b. Mama gives birth. Mama is bred back at 4 weeks. SHe spendstwo more weeks with her kits...has 2 weeks off - and then has a newlitter.

My personal concern - as an animal lover - is that I worry this wearsmom down and winds up somehow weakening her immune system and theimmune system of the kits. Yes - mamas in the wild will go out and havelitter after litter.....and they die sooner. That isn't what I want formy rabbits.

So I've made the decision - that for me - even though it means myrabbits won't be from some of the best bloodlines in the future - I'mnot buying from breeders who do breedings like that. They may have showquality rabbits and they may win at the tables and have goals for theirherd. But I don't personally feel right about supporting them.

I think the biggest thing when picking a breeder is trust. Can you trust this person? Do you feel good about them?

I bought Tiny from a breeder who I now realize was a breeder mill inmany ways. They raise 5 breeds of rabbits and are known for certainbreeds...but...the rabbits were not socialized. Tiny came to us at 3months of age and knew nothing about being held - being handled -trusting humans.

Now- when people come back to me for rabbits they'll say to me, "Ican't get over it. They run and play and have fun - but they let us petthem too. We thought they would be afraid of us..".

To me - you want to buy from a breeder who has socialized their rabbitsso they'll be interested in people. For crying out loud - my weanlingsare hoots. I frequently go to the cage and play "peek-a-boo" or takecheerios and see who will come to me. I've had them so anxious to getto me - that they're climbing all over each other - to the point wheresomeone falls off and onto the floor if I can't catch them in time. Butmy weanlings see me coming and go 'Oh boy....here comes the fun'.

If my post has offended other breeders - I'm sorry. I was mainlysharing my viewpoint - what I look for in a breeder and what I'drecommend others to look for...

Peg

Edited to add: No - the blue doe is staying here.Sorry! But she is what I'm striving for....or at least closer to it.
 
Great advice Peg! I think we should havesomething like that pinned in the the rabbitry..maybe have Pam add toit if she has anything to contribute.

TinysMom wrote:

Haley - I wish you were here to take the broken tort buck. He is beyondhilarious - and truth be told - I'm thinking about keeping him andtestbreeding him to see if he carries that gene.....I just really likehim a lot.


And yes, I definitely think you should keep him! We need some more pics of him too when you get a chance!
 
Peg, I just can't look at this thread anymore - because i want every single bunny on this page! (Yesterday, too.) Your talking about people not wanting one with a cloudy eye or missing toe makes me a bit sad, though.

I love reading your descriptions of the babies playing. I'd be like you, down on the floor with them.

And thanks, too, for your posts about what to look for and what you feel is good practice. It's so obvious that you care deeply for your bunnies. :)

Edit: is dusty-nose boy the one you were talking about on the last page - being "personable," etc.? It sure looks like the same bunny to me. (I'm in love - don't tell him, though. ;))
 
Dusty nose is the one who kept looking at the computer screen before as if to say, "Where are our pictures?" and he is a hoot...
 
He *looks* like he's a hoot - I want him. :)
 
Since GingerSpice passed away, it has felt so empty sitting at my desk. I come here and sit and do things...but I needed to make some "new" memories at my desk.

So I did so this morning- this is from a litter of babies I had from Minne Pearl (a frosted pearl) and Coustea (a tort). The players are:

sable point - buck
frosted pearl - doe
mismarked tort - buck
orange - doe

You can tell the orange and frosted pearl because they have white around the nose...

So on to the memories these guys helped me make...

http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter014.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
I&#39;m still not sure what I&#39;m supposed to do here. Got any wires I can chew?
http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter013.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
What do you mean LOOK cute? I AM cute!
http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter012.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
Is this a cute pose breeder mommy?
http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter011.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
Aw come on....I&#39;m trying to make you smile...
http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter010.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
Hey...I think breeder mommy looks sad...we need to find some mischief to get into..
http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter009.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
Ok....let me be on sentry duty while you guys look for mischief..
http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter008.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
Um guys....I think she&#39;s watching us?
http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter007.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
Hey...I had my nose to the ground and my ears not far behind...I can&#39;t be in trouble...

http://i4.photobucket.com<WBR>/albums/y139/PegFlint/Nationals<WBR>%20Babies%2007/Minnie%20Pearls<WBR>%20Litter/MinnesLitter006.jpg]<WBR> [/url]
IT WORKED! I heard her laugh....now what?



Peg
 
Aww...leave it up to babies to create such beautiful memories...:D

I can&#39;t wait to see more pictures...they&#39;re so beautiful, and their individual personalities shine right through!! :D

P.S. Hey...that&#39;s my post in the background! Hehe!! :)
 
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