Not "Potty"ing

[indianavex]

Hey all,

So my bun Cassie was throwing a bit of a tantrum last night and this morning/afternoon. She was dragging/throwing her water bowl around and kicking the contents of her litter box out. Both aren't necessarily new behaviors, but I figured they were an expression of irritation with me because I was late feeding her and had left her litter box a day longer than I usually do. I cleaned up the mess, gave her fresh bedding, gave her dinner, and figured that'd be the end of it. Before bed, she began moving the bowl again. I largely ignored her because she often throws tantrums after I close her cage door for "bedtime."

When I woke up in the morning her litter box contents had once again been scattered and her water bowl was empty (sloshed everywhere) on the other side. I cleaned up the mess again, gave her food again, and have noticed since (it's been maybe 6hrs) she hasn't pooped or peed once. She had between both times aplenty, but hasn't since. She's touched the food I left for her, but hasn't eaten all of it and her water bowl looks as full as when I left in the morning. She's been in her hide all day and when I peek at her, appears to be loafing and looking normal. She's refused contact with me all day (not new either, she usually likes me best around dinner time).

What gives? Any ideas on what I could be doing to piss her off or if she might be feeling unwell?

 

[JBun]

Is she staying hunched up in one spot, for extended periods of time, and are you hearing any teeth grinding? It could be the start of GI stasis, which is a blockage in their gut, and a rabbit will stop eating and pooping because of it. Since it's only been a few hours, just keep an eye on her and try and encourage her to eat. If you feed her veggies, then you may want to give some to her now to see if she'll eat them. Look out for her to poop and if she's eating anything at all. If she isn't after a while and you think she is feeling sick, you may want to try to give her some simethicone 1cc, and metacam if you have any, and syringe some water. If she still isn't eating and pooping by morning, then you should get her into the vet.

 

[indianavex]

she took some veggies (i give her a small amount of greens and sometimes a baby carrot or two) no problem but is still hiding out under her igloo. Where do I find simethicone and/or metacam? I live in a small town with only a walmart, could i find it there?

 

[JBun]

You can get simethicone at walmart, in the pharmacy area. It's infant gas relief liquid suspension. The dosage is 1cc every hour for 3 hours, then every 3-8 hours as needed. Have you checked her belly at all? Can you tell if it seems normal, is there any bloating, or loud gutgling sounds? You can try the simethicone. If you don't have a syringe, then pick one up as well. Get a 1cc and a 6cc if available. Use the 1cc syringe for the simethicone, and with the 6cc, syringe her some water if she's not drinking at all. Syringe slowly giving her time to swallow so she doesn't aspirate. If she takes a downturn at all and seems to be getting worse, take her into the vet right away, and if she isn't eating and pooping by morning, take her in. If she does have stasis, the vet can give gut motility meds to help get the gut moving, as well as pain meds, and you also may need to get some critical care food mix so you can start hand feeding her.

The metacam you have to get from the vet. I just asked in case you happened to have some on hand. Keep encouraging her to eat hay and veggies especially. You can also wet the veggies before you give them to her, to help her get some extra water in her. I would hold of on the carrots and anything sugary, and keep getting her to eat leafy greens as much as possible.

 

[indianavex]

Just tried the belly rub. She's a bit feisty about the whole lifting thing but aside from one minor drop it's mostly been a lot of licking and clinging close to me with a bit of kicking. I hear exercise gets the gut moving, so I guess I should be glad she kicks! When I began with her tummy it was a bit bloated and extended feeling. I've been trying to give a gentle massage and lift her rear every now and then and things have loosened up a bit and I think she released a bit of gas. There was some gurgling with that, but I really can't hear much of anything because she's not keen on letting my ear near her tummy (though I tried). I haven't heard any tooth grinding either.

I'll run out to get the simethicone and syringe in a bit. I've got to see if there's even an emergency vet open or nearby that knows how to treat rabbits. I'll try to encourage her to eat hay and veggies, but it looks like for now she's having none of that. I can't tell if it's because she's offended I keep fondling her (she'll refuse food or treats if I offend her enough) or because something's wrong.

 

[indianavex]

Change of status, she just peed (partially in the litter box, I'll take it) and looks a bit more lively. Initially when I pulled her out, she hesitated to jump back into her cage (something she always readily does), but did it this time with a bit of prompting. She's also started devouring the greens I left in her cage. I'm going to still go get the simethicone and a syringe and keep a close eye on her water and hay intake. I don't want to give her too many more veggies, though, because she doesn't get a lot of them usually and I don't want to make matters worse.

EDIT:
She also just drank a good amount of water and started playing with a toilet paper roll stuffed with hay I gave her as a toy.

 

[JBun]

Eating is always a good sign. Watch for the pooping as that is equally important. Playing is good too. It sounds like she is feeling a little better

 

[indianavex]

She's peed twice now and pooped maybe one or two little itty bitty poops, maybe 1/3-1/2 their usual size. She hasn't touched her pellets (leftover from earlier), but has eaten some hay. I gave her 1cc of simethicone just 15 minutes ago after watching and waiting for about two hours. She was quite offended and protested a good amount. I've tried the emergency line for a local vet but so far the call won't connect. If I can't get a hold of anyone and things haven't improved in 7 hours, they open their doors and I'm running her there. Living in a podunk town means the pickings are slim, but I'm mostly updating the thread in case anyone else comes in or is keeping tabs.

 

[indianavex]

She finally pooped and while the number is right, the size and shape are not. I could cry, I don't think I've ever been so happy to see so many misshapen, tiny poops. She's my tiny pooping machine, so I've been so worried to not see a single thing. Even if they're still not "healthy" poops, they're there at all and I'm relieved.

 

[JBun]

Those tiny poops do indicate a gut slowdown, or stasis. But any poop is good, as well as any eating. And her eating hay and leafy veggies is actually better for her than the pellets, as the fiber in both those help get things moving again, so don't worry about her not eating pellets. It's usually the last thing they go back to, and the hay is going to be much better for her digestion anyways. When my bun was sick with stasis, I fed him as many leafy greens as he would eat, even though he wasn't used to so many. Excess leafy greens may cause softer poops, but that is actually good in stasis, as the problem is dry impacted poops, so you really want the extra moisture to help moisten and clear up the blockage. If you feel comfortable feeding more greens, and your bun seems to be ok with them, then you may want to consider feeding more of them to her. It's your call though. But make sure she has plenty of hay to eat.

The next thing you will want to consider is why she got stasis to begin with, as you want to try to prevent it from happening again. Though other health problems, stress, parasites, or bacteria can be the cause of it, most often it is the rabbits diet that has set it off. If a rabbit is getting too many carbs and sugars in their diet, it can cause stasis. Do you feed any treats, fruit, grains, sugars, or starches(like carrots)? If so, then you may want to consider cutting those out of her diet to see how she does. If digestive problems continue to be an issue after doing that, then the next step is to lower the pellet amounts, and even stopping feeding pellets if necessary. My rabbit that had stasis, kept getting it. He didn't get any treats and it seemed like it was the pellets causing the problem, so I cut the pellets out of his diet and feed hay and leafy veggies only. He hasn't gotten sick since then. It seems to me that her fit this morning was probably an indication she wasn't feeling well. I've learned to read my rabbit pretty well, so that I can tell if he has an upset tummy. You can see how your rabbit was behaving differently today. Those signs are a good way to know there is something wrong. The earlier you can catch a stasis problem, usually the better chance your bun has of recovering.

Hopefully by morning, there will be lots of poops and she will be back to her normal self. Oh, and if she drinks from a bottle, offer her a water dish, as rabbits usually drink better and more from a dish than a bottle. Water and moisture, along with the fiber, are really important for recovery. And I know, it is such a relief to see any poops, no matter what they look like.

 

[indianavex]

The pellets were mostly for water, since she hated it through a syringe (rejected it with all her might) and I only saw her go for it once. She's eaten at them a bit, but I can also take them away. They're what I've given to her when she's shedding a lot to keep things moist and moving. Very little pellets (maybe 1/4-1/3 what she gets in an entire day) and a lot of water in a slurry. But she's mostly gone after hay, especially what I've stuffed into the TP roll. The poops are pathetic looking, but they're the first thing she's passed since morning.

I keep running through my head what could've set it off, but I can't think back to anything. I've only given her a baby carrot or so a day, and she's had days where she gets 3-4 (friends come over and want to feed the bunny before I can catch them) and is fine. She had celery about 30hrs ago, but no more than 1 tsp of it. I'm not sure if I've given it to her before, but I'm not sure if that could be it at all when this didn't start til morning and she'd pooped all day and night following. The greens she's gotten are spinach, kale, and a bit of chard mixed in, and I only give her about 1/4-1/2 of a cup. They're organic pre-washed. I could give her more, I'm not opposed, I was just worried it might upset her stomach further.

 

[JBun]

I don't know if this might be the cause, but if she wasn't peeing all day, sometimes when a rabbit has bladder sludge, the pain can cause them to go off feed and get stasis. Have you noticed any peeing problems lately, like pee accidents outside of the litter box, thick sludge like urine, or her rump getting wet from pee? I mention this because of her not peeing today, and the greens that she is getting are high in oxalic acid and calcium, both of which can cause urine issues. I don't know how much of it you feed her though. Chard and spinach are high in OA, and spinach and kale are high in calcium. So that is one possibility for the cause of this. Green leaf lettuce and cilantro are better greens to feed on a regular basis. Here are some veggie lists. One shows the leafy greens high in OA, the other shows ones high in calcium.

http://www.rabbit.org/care/veggies.html
http://www.3bunnies.org/feeding.htm#greens

I haven't heard of celery causing a problem, but that doesn't mean that it can't. Kale can sometimes cause gas in rabbits, and that leads to stasis. You may want to hold off on the veggies now that she appears to be eating hay. I would definitely stop the kale and carrots, and make sure everyone knows not to be feeding anything to your rabbit right now, without checking with you first. How much do you think your rabbit weighs, and about what amount of pellets does she get in a day?

 

[indianavex]

~3lbs. She gets 1/4c pellets in the morning, 1/3 pellets in the evening, unlimited hay, and I change her water bowl daily. She usually gets romaine lettuce, but I figured I'd give her a bit of variety in her greens. She only got about 1/4 cup once yesterday, a small sample of each. She's gotten small amounts of spinach before (it's one of her favorites), I can't remember for the other two. I haven't given them to her again other than the once earlier. I gave them to her right before the celery though, so I'd have figured they passed through her system before the stasis even began. She's mostly just gotten hay since. She hasn't really had pee problems like sludge or anything. She's peed a bit "outside" of the box, but it has a low lip and that's usually because her butt hangs over the edge sometimes. The color was pale yellow.

 

[JBun]

My best guess would be that it is the sugars and carbs. If she is only 3 lb., then that is a lot of pellets for a rabbit her size. Typically a rabbit that size would get 1/4-1/3 cup pellets for the entire day. So that's like 1/8-1/6 cup in the morning and at night. Rabbits can seem to be doing ok with the food they're getting, then just all the sudden seem to develop stasis problems because of it. It's just something that happens. You could try reducing her pellets to 1/4-1/3 cup a day, I would also stop the carrots for now, and no othe r carbs or sugary treats. Try that and see how she does. Unlimited hay is really the best thing for their digestion anyways, and with the reduced pellets, she'll start eating a lot more hay, which will help prevent a blockage. Veggie wise, romaine, or another low calcium oxalic acid green, is better as the bulk of a rabbits veggies, then you add in small amounts of the other veggies that should be limited. But a reduction in her pellets should make a big difference. It's a little trial and error trying to find out what is causing the problem, and finding the right diet for your bun. That's how it's worked for my rabbits that have digestive problems. I just had to make a guess and try something out to see how it worked. And with introducing new foods, the key is to try one thing for a while, and start with very small amounts, to make sure your rabbit doesn't have problems with it. This is especially the case for rabbits with a sensitive digestion.

 

[indianavex]

The problem with reducing her pellets is I had her on about that much beforehand and she began to lose a lot of weight. I had to up the pellets back just to get weight back on her and keep it there. She was a breeding doe and was on oat pellets before, and I put her on timothy hay (slowly, months ago).

 

[JBun]

Hmm, that is a little difficult. Are the pellets that you feed her timothy based or alfalfa based?

 

[indianavex]

Timothy

 

[JBun]

Once she is feeling better, you could either try switching her slowly to an alfalfa based pellet, or slowly introducing alfalfa hay into her diet. Then you would be able to reduce the amount of pellets, but still be able to keep weight on her. Normally you don't usually give an adult rabbit alfalfa cause of the higher protein, but it sounds like she may need more protein to more easily stay at a healthy weight.

 

[indianavex]

I've thought about switching her over, but the added protein has worried me a bit. But anything to keep her weight up and keep her healthy is something I'd consider.

Well, she just made a small pile of more small, misshapen poops, but she ate this one. She's also been lying on her side in a flop so I'm assuming that means she's more comfortable? I gave her 1mL/cc of simethicone every hour for three hours and am staying up super late and waking up early just to keep a watchful eye. I took away the pellet meal and gave her a bunch more hay, which she readily tore into.

 

[JBun]

That's great she's eating her hay. That should help her poops start looking normal again too.

Extra protein really only puts more weight on them, which is why it is good for rabbits that have a hard time keeping weight on, and not good for rabbits that are overweight. Alfalfa has higher calcium content too, but as long as your rabbit doesn't have slugde issues with her urine then it should be alright.