Not eating....need opinions..... Randy?

[murph72]

I have a 9 week old Holland lop that just stopped eating his treats last night. He is staying in his box and is huddled. He usually greets me at the door, so I knew it was sign to worry.

He is still pooping and they look pretty regular, but are sticking to his bum. He is also peeing normally as well. I felt his stomach, but it does not feel hard to me at all. I did give him Simethicone, because "better safe than sorry." I also gave him some pedialyte. I am planning on giving him some Benebac powder mixed in with his pedialyte after I get home this afternoon if I see no improvement.

I took his pellets from him and changed him out to rolled oats and oatmeal in his feed, but I'm not sure he's eating any of it. I also put fresh timothy in with him (though he had this available to him before).

I do have some pain meds and an antibiotic in the fridge that I could try on him that I had from another bun that was in GI statis, but who didn't pull through.

I've heard people are having issues with Manna Pro Sho and Gro, but I use the Pro....I'm afraid this may also be an issue, but he shares his pen with another bun and that one is not affected at all. I took the pellets from him because it makes me nervous....but I don't know if this is the case. I'm not suspecting teeth as his look fine and he's also so very young to have teeth issues already.

 

[pamnock]

A veterinary evaluation is always the best choice in cases that could be serious.

However, I think you are doing an excellent job by keeping the bunny hydrated, starting it on Benebac, and also giving pain meds.

I doubt that the cause is the pellets. Most likely viral/bacterial due to the recent changes in weather that we've experienced.



Pam

 

[tonyshuman]

Hi! Per our Infirmary Instructions thread, please fill in the following information so we can help you better. I've filled in the info you've already provided for us. Feel free to quote this post and edit what I've put in so that we can get all the info.

- Location: Catawissa, Pennsylvania

- Description (Breed, color., weight): Holland Lop,

- Age: 9 weeks

- spayed/neutered?: no

- Notes on Fecal and Urinary Output
- are the bunny's poops and pees normal?: normal poo frequency, poos are a bit sticky (PLEASE ELABORATE--cecals or fecals sticking to his bum?), peeing normally
- When did they last use their litterbox?: still pooping
- Any unusual behavior?: Usually active, interested in seeing the OP, but now is just staying huddled in his box. Stopped eating treats last night.

- Medical History -- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? Please fill in--I am assuming no, because he is so young)

- Diet - what does your bunny eat?: normally, pellets (Manna Pro Sho and Gro ?), now rolled oats and oatmeeal, timothy hay
- when and what did s/he eat last? : cannot tell, still eating perhaps

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally?: Stays huddled in box

- are there any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach?: (please fill in)

- has the rabbit been outdoors? : (please fill in)

 

[tonyshuman]

Now, what I think. Gut problems in young bunnies are usually due to a bacterial imbalance. This can be caused by a number of things, like viruses, parasites, stress, food changes.

The "bad" bacteria thrive on carbohydrates, in fact, giving a bunny carbs is another possible cause of gut bacterial imbalance in young bunnies. I know some people have found that oats "firm up" diarrhea in bunnies, but I don't think they are appropriate to give a bunny that has diarrhea. I would only give the bunny hay, water, pedialyte, probiotic, and wet greens (if they are used to greens--probably not, in your bunny's case). I would also give a bit of simethicone in case he has gas. Since he's a young Holland, I would halve the dose to 0.5mL/hr for 3hrs. The gas could be causing pain in the belly which is making him not want to eat, and simethicone doesn't have many side effects.

I agree that the first course of treatment should be hydration, hay, and probiotic, perhaps also pain meds. This may be able to turn it back around. Whatever the cause, be it coccidiosis, e coli overgrowth, clostiriduim overgrowth, stress, or food, will have to be determined. If it's a minor GI bacterial imbalance, the hay, hydration, and probiotic may clear it up. If it's a larger overgrowth, it will only get worse. If it gets worse and you see full-on runny stools, mucous, etc, a vet visit will be needed ASAP.

Stasis is rare in young bunnies, so I am more inclined to think it's going to become diarrhea. I am guessing that he's not eating because of pain in the belly caused by bacterial imbalance, which seems the most likely to me. Of course, I haven't gone through this myself ever.

Here's our Library article on Diarrhea

This article from Dana Krempels talks about starch inducing GI problems in rabbits

Another article about carbs

If you go to a vet and they want to give gut motility drugs, don't let them! This article tells why--I'd print it out and take it.

A Medirabbit article on infections of the GI tract, including causes.

The Medirabbit page on GI problems.

A vet could look for bacteria or parasites in the stool and prescribe an appropriate antibiotic. This is usually a sulfa drug (which is quite controversial, there are several medications and brand names for these) or metronidazole (brand name Flagyl). Another thing they can give is a drug that keeps the toxins released by the bacteria from poisoning the rabbit, such as Questran (cholestyramine). They can also do sub-q fluids.

I particularly like the Merck Vet Manual topic on GI issues, especially for young bunnies.

 

[murph72]

Ok, I answered your blanks below. Hope it helps.

tonyshuman wrote:

Hi! Per our Infirmary Instructions thread, please fill in the following information so we can help you better. I've filled in the info you've already provided for us. Feel free to quote this post and edit what I've put in so that we can get all the info.

- Location: Catawissa, Pennsylvania

- Description (Breed, color., weight): Holland Lop,

- Age: 9 weeks

- spayed/neutered?: no

- Notes on Fecal and Urinary Output
- are the bunny's poops and pees normal?: normal poo frequency, poos are a bit sticky (PLEASE ELABORATE--cecals or fecals sticking to his bum? Appears to be fecals...they're small, but so is he...so the size is proportional to the bunny) , peeing normallyHe shows NO signs of diarrhea. Sticky, but normal sized fecals. No mucus either.
- When did they last use their litterbox?: still pooping. Found plenty of poop on his bum last night and also this morning, so the system appears to still be moving.
- Any unusual behavior?: Usually active, interested in seeing the OP, but now is just staying huddled in his box. Stopped eating treats last night.

- Medical History -- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? Please fill in--I am assuming no, because he is so young) He's never been sick before, so he has not needed to see a vet. To be honest, taking him to a vet here is rather pointless as there are not any rabbit savvy vets around.

- Diet - what does your bunny eat?: normally, pellets (Manna Pro...the Pro (not the Sho or Gro)), now rolled oats and oatmeal, timothy hay
- when and what did s/he eat last? : cannot tell, still eating perhaps

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally?: Stays huddled in box

- are there any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach?: (please fill in)He has not been outside his cage other than on a picnic table. He has not had access to any substances that would be harmful to him....just hay, a few Cheerios, and his pellets.

- has the rabbit been outdoors? : (please fill in) He's outside. He has a cage run and also an inside box. He's presently sharing it with a 9 week oldMini lop that I temporarily bonded him to because the Mini lop had problems adjusting to his new home. They get along well and snuggle.

 

[murph72]

pamnock wrote:

A veterinary evaluation is always the best choice in cases that could be serious.

However, I think you are doing an excellent job by keeping the bunny hydrated, starting it on Benebac, and also giving pain meds.

I doubt that the cause is the pellets. Most likely viral/bacterial due to the recent changes in weather that we've experienced.



Pam

Unfortunately in my area I feel as though I'm educating the vets when I go there. They did teach me to do sub q fluids when I was last there...so I can always go that route this afternoon if there has been no improvement.

Pam, do you think that the antibiotics that were prescribed for my other bun will be helpful if it is viral/bacterial? I don't know off-hand what it is...I'd have to look in the fridge when I get home...but I know it wasn't Baytril. It was given to me when I had another Holland that was diagnosed with stasis.

Should I bring the bun indoors to keep from having him out in the cold weather? I hate to stress him by changing his environment and splitting him from his buddy...but I also want to do the best thing for his health to get him over this ASAP.

 

[murph72]

tonyshuman wrote:

Now, what I think. Gut problems in young bunnies are usually due to a bacterial imbalance. This can be caused by a number of things, like viruses, parasites, stress, food changes.

Out of this list, I'd choose viruses. He didn't seem to be stressed at all, his food has been consistent, and I have never had problems with parasites...also the other bun with him has no effects and you'd think they'd share that parasite.

The "bad" bacteria thrive on carbohydrates, in fact, giving a bunny carbs is another possible cause of gut bacterial imbalance in young bunnies. I know some people have found that oats "firm up" diarrhea in bunnies, but I don't think they are appropriate to give a bunny that has diarrhea. I would only give the bunny hay, water, pedialyte, probiotic, and wet greens (if they are used to greens--probably not, in your bunny's case). I would also give a bit of simethicone in case he has gas. Since he's a young Holland, I would halve the dose to 0.5mL/hr for 3hrs. The gas could be causing pain in the belly which is making him not want to eat, and simethicone doesn't have many side effects.

I have not given him greens yet, so I'll stick to the others on the list. I am going to mix the benebac with the pedialtye when I get home. I also might try some sub q fluids as well.

I agree that the first course of treatment should be hydration, hay, and probiotic, perhaps also pain meds. This may be able to turn it back around. Whatever the cause, be it coccidiosis, e coli overgrowth, clostiriduim overgrowth, stress, or food, will have to be determined. If it's a minor GI bacterial imbalance, the hay, hydration, and probiotic may clear it up. If it's a larger overgrowth, it will only get worse. If it gets worse and you see full-on runny stools, mucous, etc, a vet visit will be needed ASAP.

So far the stools have not been runny, nor had mucous. I am hoping to keep him from that stage if at all possible. I'd rather hit this head on than to wait until it gets that bad.

Stasis is rare in young bunnies, so I am more inclined to think it's going to become diarrhea. I am guessing that he's not eating because of pain in the belly caused by bacterial imbalance, which seems the most likely to me. Of course, I haven't gone through this myself ever.

Here's our Library article on Diarrhea

This article from Dana Krempels talks about starch inducing GI problems in rabbits

Another article about carbs

If you go to a vet and they want to give gut motility drugs, don't let them! This article tells why--I'd print it out and take it.

A Medirabbit article on infections of the GI tract, including causes.

The Medirabbit page on GI problems.

A vet could look for bacteria or parasites in the stool and prescribe an appropriate antibiotic. This is usually a sulfa drug (which is quite controversial, there are several medications and brand names for these) or metronidazole (brand name Flagyl). Another thing they can give is a drug that keeps the toxins released by the bacteria from poisoning the rabbit, such as Questran (cholestyramine). They can also do sub-q fluids.

I think Flagyl is what I do have at home from my other bun that never had the chance to take it. If so, I can always give him some of that. I read where Randy was using Bio Sponge...is there anywhere, such as TSC, that I can pick that up rather than to order it?

I particularly like the Merck Vet Manual topic on GI issues, especially for young bunnies.

 

[tonyshuman]

Ok, I think it's best not to try antibiotics right now--save that for if he develops watery poo. I'd just stick with the Bene-Bac, hay, and pedialyte for now, maybe some pain meds or simethicone as well. That's a good plan--you don't want to over-react and throw things more out of balance.

There's the shaking test--if you pick him up and give him a little up-and-down shake, does he sound like a half-full water bottle? That's a sign of intestinal distress (diarrhea) to come.

I have only found Bio-Sponge on the internet, unfortunately. I looked through what TSC has for horses on their website, and didn't find anything similar. If you go looking for something, it should be a compound that can bind toxins--like activated charcoal does for humans (but activated charcoal is not good for bunnies in this situation), particularly intestinal ones. It might be a medicine for horse digestive issues.

 

[tonyshuman]

TSC does sell anti-toxins for clostridium--however I have never heard of anyone using them in rabbits, and I can't find any information about them from the supposed manufacturer's website (Boehringer Ingelheim).

 

[murph72]

I just moved Bentley inside. He was snoofling around the new pen I put him in, which is a nice sign. He tested the rolled oats too. I gave him the pain meds (Tramadol), Simethicone, and some pedialyte mixed with benebac. He has timothy in with him, as well as the rolled oats, and his water bottle.

I held him up to my ear and did the shaking, but heard nothing. I'm not really hearing anything other than his heartbeat.

I'm liking the idea of him being in the house because it's warmer, I can keep a better eye on him, and I can tell what are definitely his droppings as opposed to Chester's.

I'm going to give him some more simethicone in about an hour as well as try to get more fluids in him (he took the meds well, but wasn't so fond of the pedialyte/benebac mixture).

If you can think of anything else I should try...such as maybe the sub q fluids, let me know. It's nice to at least bounce this off other people...I always question whether I'm doing the right thing, even if I do have experience with nursing these little ones.

 

[tonyshuman]

It sounds like you're doing a good job. If he'll take the pedialyte, that should suffice and sub-q's won't be needed.

 

[murph72]

Just an update:

This morning I got him out of his cage and gave him a dose of simethicone and some more pedialyte/benebac liquid. I can hear his little belly grumbling when I give him the liquid. I let him move about some. He's definitely peeing normally. He pooped as well, butI think it might have more mucus in it than it did yesterday. Not alot, but enough to tell me he's having some stomach discomfort still. I'm definitely still not seeing anything like diarrhea out of him at all. He wasn't grinding his teeth at all this morning, so I didn't give him the pain meds as I don't want to overdo those.

I gave him a smidgen of apple last night and he licked it, but didn't eat it. I really can't tell what he's eating, if anything. He's still pooping some, so I'm assuming there's something in there. He also has energy to fight with me when he doesn't want any more of whatever it is I'm trying to force on him. I also gave him some Stat this morning as I'm concerned about his vitamin intake (or lack thereof). He seemed to take that fine....well, relatively so. He's probably still cleaning some off his chin.

At what point should I worry about adding some critical care to the mix? I've heard it's not great on little upset bellies as it sits heavy in the gut. I don't want to have to deal with his gut movements stopping either though. I don't want to do too much, nor too little.

I read all the articles that you posted yesterday Claire. Most of them are pointing at diarrhea being present, which isn't what I've seen. His mucus in his stools aren't real bad either. Some are slightly smaller today, but some were also his normal size (which is small too since he's rather small). It seems like what I read isn't really pointing directly to what I'm experiencing with him...his doesn't seem to be quite that bad in comparison to some of the descriptions.

 

[tonyshuman]

The reason I posted links about diarrhea is because mucous usually comes with/precedes diarrhea, especially in young guys, and young guys usually get diarrhea, not stasis. Their guts may shut down totally for a day or two, leading to not eating and small poos, but then they get lots of diarrhea and it can be quite serious. I'll see if I can chase down an article about not eating in young bunnies for you.

If you hear grumbling, he needs more gas help. Simethicone, warmth (pop bottle full or warm water, rice sock, etc), and vibration can help with that.

If you can't tell whether or not he's eating, I'd give him some food. If you don't want to give CC, you can give a slurry made of his normal pellets in water.

 

[murph72]

The gurgling only comes right after I give him the pedialtye mixture. He doesn't seem to be making any noises on his own.

I think if I'm going to force feed him it would be the CC as I'm suspicious of the pellets since others are talking about them possibly having an issue. I'd rather not chance it and force feed him something that might be iffy. Nobody else has been affected though, so I don't want to jump to the conclusion they are tainted...I just don't want to chance it that he is having issues with them.

I gave him a warm option last night and he chose to go in and lay on the cool bathroom floor...which I thought was odd.

How long will they go on pooping if they're not eating? I would have thought his system would be cleaned out by now if he had stopped eating Wednesday sometime. I watched him take a bite of the rolled oats last night, but that's surely not enough to be keeping his system active.

 

[Maureen Las]

You really need to set up his pen so you can tell if he is eating anything

if he has not eaten for several days then you can dilute the CC and give a runny version of it or give pure canned pumpkin which is easy to give per syringe.

if this continues you are going to need to print out some articles and take them to any vet who may be able to check the stool for parasite and /or some other problem that cannot be dealt with at home.
I would NOT give the usual pellets ifyou are are suspicious of them

 

[tonyshuman]

I agree it would be good if you could figure out if he's eating. Also yeah, if the pellets are suspect don't give those. Does he perhaps have a temperature? Are you comfortable taking his temp (rectal thermometer)? I do think it is time to force feed because if he hasn't eaten since Wed that would be really bad. You may also want to force feed him some fresh pineapple juice as it can get his blood sugar back up which can in some cases help. I agree that if he doesn't take force feeding today or doesn't start eating on his own you need to get him to a vet.

 

[murph72]

He did well on a mixture of CC, pedialyte and benebac. He ate it like a trouper until he decided that the second syringe of it would be an overload. He then went off in his own direction to have a few poops. They're still a bit wetter than I like, but there are quite a few of them, which leads me to believe he's eating something. I put some rolled oats directly in his bed with him and I think he ate some, but I don't think he ate many. I also can't tell with the hay as it's not like he's eaten enough to tell that the pile has diminished. Other than a rabbit cam, I'm not sure how to tell what he's doing when I'm not in the room with him.

 

[tonyshuman]

That's good to hear--eating something and a few poops is the right direction.

 

[murph72]

I just don't understand what the cause is...which is what is bothering me. I wish I knew if the Flagyl would help or hurt the situation. I just want to give him every chance I can.

 

[tonyshuman]

Well, I don't like to do antibiotics without a vet. Metronidazole can help with clostiridium overgrowth or cocci, both of which could be the cause. I don't know if it would be bad to give if that's not what's going on. It also is a bit anti-inflammatory in the GI tract. Since you have to be your own vet, it may be worth trying, but of course it would be really good to know what's going on (a fecal float test could show cocci).

I think he's on the mend--he may be doing better tomorrow and not need any other treatments.