TinysMom
Well-Known Member
How old is the doe? Has she had a litter before?
New REW Holland Lop Buck
- Thread starter SilverBirchRabbitry
- Start date
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SilverBirchRabbitry
Well-Known Member
My doe is currently 7 weeks :] So clearly she has not had a litter lol But I don't plan on breeding him to her until she is 7 months old :] I will be prepared, I know what I'm doing lol
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
SilverBirchRabbitry wrote:
I think I've seen you get four or five new rabbits. They're never based upon the quality of the rabbit (something a responsible and respectable breeder always looks for). Instead they seem to be based upon "cuteness". This is fine...for a pet rabbit. But a breeder needs to look beyond cuteness.
Sometimes I wonder what breed(s) you're working on....it seems like you have a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
My concern is not only that you want to breed inferior quality rabbits - but that you are going to be spending your time AND your money on rabbits that are not show quality. Unfortunately - this will wind up being a WASTE of your time and money - as far as being a breeder goes.
I understand that as a moderator - I can not "make" you do anything - they are your rabbits - and you will make the decisions about their care and breeding. I get that.
But I can not stand by and not say anything about your decision to breed a poor quality buck to a doe (that we have no idea of the quality of ... just to "see what you'll get" or "get REWs".
To me - that is the mentality of a "backyard breeder" - something we don't support and approve of on this forum.
I probably sound like I'm coming down harsh - but the fact is - we have people reading this forum who are thinking about breeding. I would hate for them to read this thread and think we would encourage someone to breed an animal of poor quality in type, etc.
In addition - from what I understand - Holland Lops are one of the two breeds most susceptible to stuck kits - and to put a doe at risk when the buck is poor quality is just....unthinkable.
:banghead
Part of what bothers me the most is that your 4H leader is helping in this. Why give someone a poor quality buck if they're wanting to show or breed? It would be better to encourage them to save their money and get a quality animal that would do well at the shows rather than something that will be laughed about behind the breeder's back.
I'm not part of 4H (although I am considering leading the "pet rabbit" group here since no one is doing it). So I don't know the 4H rules for showing, etc.
But I am still amazed that your leader would encourage you in this foolishness by helping you acquire poor quality animals.
Anyway - I've said my piece for the archives so people will understand how RO feels about backyard breeding and breeding poor quality animals.
I'm not anti-breeding....I was a breeder for 3 years and may breed again in the future someday....
And I did make stupid choices at first...breeding colors that shouldn't go together, etc - but I learned after my first set of litters and I read and educated myself and learned from the forum and continued to learn.
I suggest you find a breeder near you who has rabbits that WIN on the tables and see if they'll mentor you on what to do - because they'll do a far better job than your leader who is providing you with these rabbits.
I respectfully disagree with you on this - based on the things I've seen in your postings over the last few weeks - I have problems believing this. Since you are planning to breed a poor quality buck that those who are experienced have said shouldn't be bred - I want to address some of the choices you've made over the last few weeks.
I think I've seen you get four or five new rabbits. They're never based upon the quality of the rabbit (something a responsible and respectable breeder always looks for). Instead they seem to be based upon "cuteness". This is fine...for a pet rabbit. But a breeder needs to look beyond cuteness.
Sometimes I wonder what breed(s) you're working on....it seems like you have a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
My concern is not only that you want to breed inferior quality rabbits - but that you are going to be spending your time AND your money on rabbits that are not show quality. Unfortunately - this will wind up being a WASTE of your time and money - as far as being a breeder goes.
I understand that as a moderator - I can not "make" you do anything - they are your rabbits - and you will make the decisions about their care and breeding. I get that.
But I can not stand by and not say anything about your decision to breed a poor quality buck to a doe (that we have no idea of the quality of ... just to "see what you'll get" or "get REWs".
To me - that is the mentality of a "backyard breeder" - something we don't support and approve of on this forum.
I probably sound like I'm coming down harsh - but the fact is - we have people reading this forum who are thinking about breeding. I would hate for them to read this thread and think we would encourage someone to breed an animal of poor quality in type, etc.
In addition - from what I understand - Holland Lops are one of the two breeds most susceptible to stuck kits - and to put a doe at risk when the buck is poor quality is just....unthinkable.
:banghead
Part of what bothers me the most is that your 4H leader is helping in this. Why give someone a poor quality buck if they're wanting to show or breed? It would be better to encourage them to save their money and get a quality animal that would do well at the shows rather than something that will be laughed about behind the breeder's back.
I'm not part of 4H (although I am considering leading the "pet rabbit" group here since no one is doing it). So I don't know the 4H rules for showing, etc.
But I am still amazed that your leader would encourage you in this foolishness by helping you acquire poor quality animals.
Anyway - I've said my piece for the archives so people will understand how RO feels about backyard breeding and breeding poor quality animals.
I'm not anti-breeding....I was a breeder for 3 years and may breed again in the future someday....
And I did make stupid choices at first...breeding colors that shouldn't go together, etc - but I learned after my first set of litters and I read and educated myself and learned from the forum and continued to learn.
I suggest you find a breeder near you who has rabbits that WIN on the tables and see if they'll mentor you on what to do - because they'll do a far better job than your leader who is providing you with these rabbits.
SilverBirchRabbitry
Well-Known Member
I breed show quality French Angoras, we also raise champion English Angoras. We have been raising rabbits for 4 years now.
We do get some rabbits because they are cute I'm going to admit that. We are serious about breeding our Angoras, very serious. We have produced many grand champions before we downsized.
I plan on breeding this buck to one of my better quality does, I'm going to try it and see what happens. I post this to get thoughts on the rabbits, not to hear people lecture me about my breeding descions.
All of my rabbits are well taken care of and get ALOT of attantion. I'm not a backyard breeder in anyway. You totally insulted me.
My leader likes to try different things out she is a very nice lady, who breeds quality Netherlands.
I'm soo sick of rabbit forums. Like honestly. I get talked to like I'm stupid and don't know anything.
My 2 Flemmies are pets so yes I based them on their looks, my Jersey Woolie is also a pet. We have our 4 Hollands, of which come from very good breeders except the REW. My French & English Angoras are from top stock, and are amazing show rabbits. I'm not stupid when it comes to breeding, yes sometimes I don't make wise decisions or I like to test things but is that really a crime?
We do get some rabbits because they are cute I'm going to admit that. We are serious about breeding our Angoras, very serious. We have produced many grand champions before we downsized.
I plan on breeding this buck to one of my better quality does, I'm going to try it and see what happens. I post this to get thoughts on the rabbits, not to hear people lecture me about my breeding descions.
All of my rabbits are well taken care of and get ALOT of attantion. I'm not a backyard breeder in anyway. You totally insulted me.
My leader likes to try different things out she is a very nice lady, who breeds quality Netherlands.
I'm soo sick of rabbit forums. Like honestly. I get talked to like I'm stupid and don't know anything.
My 2 Flemmies are pets so yes I based them on their looks, my Jersey Woolie is also a pet. We have our 4 Hollands, of which come from very good breeders except the REW. My French & English Angoras are from top stock, and are amazing show rabbits. I'm not stupid when it comes to breeding, yes sometimes I don't make wise decisions or I like to test things but is that really a crime?
CKGS
Well-Known Member
Kudos Peg.
SilverBirchRabbitry
Well-Known Member
You know something I think I'm done with rabbit forums to be honest.
CKGS
Well-Known Member
To me it is a crime when you are breeding pet quality animals and there are already sooo many in the shelters. Take a look at some of these threads where rabbits are being PTS because of lack of homes. Breeders who breed for the betterment of a breed don't breed pet quality animals to 'try' and produce show quality. BYBs often want to see what their dogs will produce or breed them because they are 'too cute'.
I am very passionate about this subject after volunteering at shelters. I know what it is like to take an animal out of a cage and KNOW that this is the last time it will come out of this cage and the last time it will walk or be carried through that door! I carried a rabbit back to that door 2 years ago when I volunteered in an Ohio shelter. It was terrified! Because of people who breed indiscriminately the rabbits in shelters die.... This is the sad truth. I, for one, cannot live with that- this is why I don't breed. I LOVE my rabbits but also know enough to let those who have pedigreed animals within the standard for their breed, breed them. I do NOT wish to think I caused 1 rabbit to die because I wanted a certain color or because I think they are cute. There are many cute animals out there.
And forgive me but how can you tell you have a 'better quality' doe if she is 7 weeks old?
I am very passionate about this subject after volunteering at shelters. I know what it is like to take an animal out of a cage and KNOW that this is the last time it will come out of this cage and the last time it will walk or be carried through that door! I carried a rabbit back to that door 2 years ago when I volunteered in an Ohio shelter. It was terrified! Because of people who breed indiscriminately the rabbits in shelters die.... This is the sad truth. I, for one, cannot live with that- this is why I don't breed. I LOVE my rabbits but also know enough to let those who have pedigreed animals within the standard for their breed, breed them. I do NOT wish to think I caused 1 rabbit to die because I wanted a certain color or because I think they are cute. There are many cute animals out there.
And forgive me but how can you tell you have a 'better quality' doe if she is 7 weeks old?
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
SilverBirchRabbitry wrote:
You said you post to get thoughts on the rabbits...but then when you hear from experienced breeders with that breed - including one who is an ARBA judge and has bred Hollands for years and was a TOP breeder - and yet you decide to go against their advice of "do not breed this rabbit" - of course you're going to get follow-up questions trying to understand why you know more than the experts.
As far as being a backyard breeder - I'm sorry - but I feel like anyone who would knowingly breed a rabbit that will only produce more pet rabbits - is a backyard breeder. It is not a term that I use regularly - but you care more about the breeding than the life of your doe...as I pointed out - lops are more likely to have health risks.
Anyway - you've heard opinions from the experts which was what you wanted.
No - it is not a crime to make poor breeding decision - its a crime to do things like steal a rabbit or mistreat a rabbit.
You said you post to get thoughts on the rabbits...but then when you hear from experienced breeders with that breed - including one who is an ARBA judge and has bred Hollands for years and was a TOP breeder - and yet you decide to go against their advice of "do not breed this rabbit" - of course you're going to get follow-up questions trying to understand why you know more than the experts.
As far as being a backyard breeder - I'm sorry - but I feel like anyone who would knowingly breed a rabbit that will only produce more pet rabbits - is a backyard breeder. It is not a term that I use regularly - but you care more about the breeding than the life of your doe...as I pointed out - lops are more likely to have health risks.
Anyway - you've heard opinions from the experts which was what you wanted.
SilverBirchRabbitry
Well-Known Member
Can you delete my account please Peg? I no longer want to be a member on here.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
We do not delete accounts here - you can simply leave and not come back and post....I think that was what you did as a couple of other rabbitry names.
NorthernAutumn
Autumn - Administrator
Jackie, you asked for someone's honest opinion about your buck's breeding and show potential.
Everyone so far has indicated that you should not breed this buck "just to see", as it will undermine your efforts to create animals with good type.
Breeders breed for type and show qualities. This buck doesn't have either. Therefore, it is pointless to breed him.
Enjoy him as a pet.
Remember, you asked for folks' best advice, and they've given it honestly. It's up to you what you do with that advice now.
PamNock and TinysMom are highly respected breeders in the USA, and I value their opinions very much.
Everyone so far has indicated that you should not breed this buck "just to see", as it will undermine your efforts to create animals with good type.
Breeders breed for type and show qualities. This buck doesn't have either. Therefore, it is pointless to breed him.
Enjoy him as a pet.
Remember, you asked for folks' best advice, and they've given it honestly. It's up to you what you do with that advice now.
PamNock and TinysMom are highly respected breeders in the USA, and I value their opinions very much.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
CKGS wrote:
That's when I start watching the others in the litter to see how they develop.
With the lionhead breed - I'm looking at the mane - the face (the long narrow faces don't do well anymore) - the color (as in - does it show the characteristics of that color or is it too dull or too bright) - and of course - the personality.
I've been known to sell a show quality rabbit to a pet owner at a pet price...because that lionhead was an ideal pet. Money didn't matter - matching that pet up with an owner did.
By 7 weeks old - I can distinguish my pet quality rabbits. You can see the bad body type at that age - just like you can see on the buck pictured at the beginning of the thread.
That's when I start watching the others in the litter to see how they develop.
With the lionhead breed - I'm looking at the mane - the face (the long narrow faces don't do well anymore) - the color (as in - does it show the characteristics of that color or is it too dull or too bright) - and of course - the personality.
I've been known to sell a show quality rabbit to a pet owner at a pet price...because that lionhead was an ideal pet. Money didn't matter - matching that pet up with an owner did.
SilverBirchRabbitry
Well-Known Member
I asked for advice on the rabbit in general not on breeding him.
The fact is people don't have to be so harsh. I get the point. I won't breed the rabbit. But I'm still quitting on here. It has been nothing but hassles.
The fact is people don't have to be so harsh. I get the point. I won't breed the rabbit. But I'm still quitting on here. It has been nothing but hassles.
CKGS
Well-Known Member
Peg, Thank you for clarifying that. I just thought maybe as the rabbit ages things change-body type etc...
NorthernAutumn
Autumn - Administrator
A wise person once said...
"It would be foolish to give up this wonderful opportunity to learn more about rabbits and their care & breeding, for the sake of the opinions of a few people."
RO is an incredible resource of knowledge... I would hate for you to miss out.
** Your first post said:
Justlet me know if you think he would be a good "show" bunny or a nice breeding buck.
(Everyone's been on topic, dear)
"It would be foolish to give up this wonderful opportunity to learn more about rabbits and their care & breeding, for the sake of the opinions of a few people."
RO is an incredible resource of knowledge... I would hate for you to miss out.
** Your first post said:
Justlet me know if you think he would be a good "show" bunny or a nice breeding buck.
(Everyone's been on topic, dear)
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
NorthernAutumn wrote:
I might've been a well-known (somewhat) breeder when I bred as I was on several lionhead lists and spent a lot of time and energy educating myself and learning from other breeders.
BUT...I'm no where near the level of PamNock - I'd have to breed for 50 years to even be half as knowledgeable as she is...in fact - Pam is the one I often went to in the beginning with my many questions. Her knowledge about genetics and type, etc is outstanding...we are so blessed to have her on this forum.
It is no secret that I'm out of breeding now....for several reasons. I can't bring myself to "cull" rabbits by putting them down...and I live in a small rural area - so not much call for show rabbits. Also, I got tired of feeling I was putting a doe's life at risk after one of my favorite does had some complications.
Anyway - thanks for the compliment...I'm touched....
Oh wow.....um...thanks?
I might've been a well-known (somewhat) breeder when I bred as I was on several lionhead lists and spent a lot of time and energy educating myself and learning from other breeders.
BUT...I'm no where near the level of PamNock - I'd have to breed for 50 years to even be half as knowledgeable as she is...in fact - Pam is the one I often went to in the beginning with my many questions. Her knowledge about genetics and type, etc is outstanding...we are so blessed to have her on this forum.
It is no secret that I'm out of breeding now....for several reasons. I can't bring myself to "cull" rabbits by putting them down...and I live in a small rural area - so not much call for show rabbits. Also, I got tired of feeling I was putting a doe's life at risk after one of my favorite does had some complications.
Anyway - thanks for the compliment...I'm touched....
SilverBirchRabbitry
Well-Known Member
I have had nothing but problems, people don't have to be so harsh. People on here are not stupid they can say things in nicer terms.
:/
:/
CKGS
Well-Known Member
I think people get tired of saying things over and over again. I think they get tired of being asked questions to only be ignored. That would be my take.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
CKGS wrote:
I used to explain to people once I could tell a decent lionhead from the nestbox.
If you hold out your hand in front of you and look at your pinkie...your thumb...and your middle finger - it might help you understand.
Lionheads need to have some width to them across the body...so if a rabbit was the size/shape of a pinkie...it wouldn't have good bone mass that I wanted.
If it was long like my middle finger - it was probably longer in the body - hence it might be brood quality but probably not show quality...(if it was a doe - if buck - it was a pet automatically).
If it was shaped in proportion like my thumb...then that was what I was looking for - a thick body (good bone mass) and a short body.
Sound crazy - but once you know your breed and the standards - and you've bred enough - you learn things like this.
I used to think that too until I bred about four or five litters and I started noticing that the rabbit that was really nice at 5 weeks was usually very nice at 12 weeks....
I used to explain to people once I could tell a decent lionhead from the nestbox.
If you hold out your hand in front of you and look at your pinkie...your thumb...and your middle finger - it might help you understand.
Lionheads need to have some width to them across the body...so if a rabbit was the size/shape of a pinkie...it wouldn't have good bone mass that I wanted.
If it was long like my middle finger - it was probably longer in the body - hence it might be brood quality but probably not show quality...(if it was a doe - if buck - it was a pet automatically).
If it was shaped in proportion like my thumb...then that was what I was looking for - a thick body (good bone mass) and a short body.
Sound crazy - but once you know your breed and the standards - and you've bred enough - you learn things like this.
NorthernAutumn
Autumn - Administrator
I have a sense that folks try to be very honest, which comes across as harsh. No one in the thread has used foul language with you, or hurled pointless insults.
At this point, I think it would be best to leave this thread until tomorrow. It is now 1 AM here for you and I, Jackie, and I think we should all sleep on it.
We'd all come back with fresher perspectives
At this point, I think it would be best to leave this thread until tomorrow. It is now 1 AM here for you and I, Jackie, and I think we should all sleep on it.
We'd all come back with fresher perspectives
