Bo B Bunny
Well-Known Member
inkbouceOOS!!! inkbouce:
Need some help w/ Stasis
- Thread starter TinysMom
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Haley
Well-Known Member
Thats great news, Peg! Is he still doing well today?
JimD
Well-Known Member
Updates, PLEEEEEEZ !! :?
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
New Hope and I took a nap in bed today for a couple of hours.
BAD BAD move...
Wanna know what Art's side of the bed looked like?
:litterhealthy:
His new nickname is "Mr. Cocoa Puffs".
I'm thoroughly convinced that it was the sub q fluids that pulled him through. I honestly never thought that he was going to make it - and Art kept saying, "We're only torturing him by giving him the sub q fluids...its not fair to him." In fact, the last time Art wimped otu and only gave him 15 cc instead of 20 cc.
I think Art is now convinced that I was right - we needed to do sub q fluids. In fact, I have found out that in some ways I was not aggressive enough in the amount I gave him and think that if I'd given him more he might have gotten better sooner.
Peg
JimD wrote:
BAD BAD move...
Wanna know what Art's side of the bed looked like?
:litterhealthy:
His new nickname is "Mr. Cocoa Puffs".
I'm thoroughly convinced that it was the sub q fluids that pulled him through. I honestly never thought that he was going to make it - and Art kept saying, "We're only torturing him by giving him the sub q fluids...its not fair to him." In fact, the last time Art wimped otu and only gave him 15 cc instead of 20 cc.
I think Art is now convinced that I was right - we needed to do sub q fluids. In fact, I have found out that in some ways I was not aggressive enough in the amount I gave him and think that if I'd given him more he might have gotten better sooner.
Peg
JimD wrote:
Bo B Bunny
Well-Known Member
Does Art know about the cocoa puffs? LOL!
and did he pee too? Bo always pees on John's pillow! LOL!
I'm so glad he's doing well! I knew he was going to be ok! I just had a good feeling about him!
and did he pee too? Bo always pees on John's pillow! LOL!
I'm so glad he's doing well! I knew he was going to be ok! I just had a good feeling about him!
ra7751
Well-Known Member
Hi All,
Peg is so right about the fluids. We just took in an abandoned rabbit...we named him Dexter....that had been at a shelter for several days. No poops....no pee for at least the4 days he had been there. His gut was essentially shut down and he was in renal failure. We popped him hard with fluids. I knew we had to get the kidneys back up and functioning and nothing does that quicker or better than a big syringe of lactated ringers. Within 24 hours....we have a deluge...and cocoa puffs to boot. Aggressive hydration should always be the primary response in a stasis/ileus event. Many people tend to panic and do too much. The idea is to steady the ship with as little fanfare as possible. Remember that rabbit's guts do not like changes. By doing too many things, it can make a wild swing in the other direction. Having a well thought out plan based around hydration therapy is all we ever use here. And it really helps to understand the dynamics of how a rabbit's gut works. An example is simethicone....when used with a gas event, it is very effective. When used in a stasis event, it can be constipating which is the exact opposite of what you want. And if you mix certain pain meds with simethicone in a stasis event, things slow down even further. And gut motility drugs are always a no-no. I have been preaching fluid therapy the entire time I have been a member of this forum. In our rescue, being able to administer fluids has saved many rabbits that would have died otherwise. Look in our blog...Miracle and Zakk are a couple of prime examples If you need more proof of the value of being able to administer fluids...I think Peg is a testimonial to that. Learning to do fluids is quite simple....any entry level vet tech can teach you in just a few minutes. Being able to give fluids is nothing short of a life saver. And a side benefit....it might just save a vet visit. Another benefit...you can buy lots of fluids and supplies forless than the vet charges for one round of fluids. Most vets are happy to teach you if you ask to learn.
Randy
Peg is so right about the fluids. We just took in an abandoned rabbit...we named him Dexter....that had been at a shelter for several days. No poops....no pee for at least the4 days he had been there. His gut was essentially shut down and he was in renal failure. We popped him hard with fluids. I knew we had to get the kidneys back up and functioning and nothing does that quicker or better than a big syringe of lactated ringers. Within 24 hours....we have a deluge...and cocoa puffs to boot. Aggressive hydration should always be the primary response in a stasis/ileus event. Many people tend to panic and do too much. The idea is to steady the ship with as little fanfare as possible. Remember that rabbit's guts do not like changes. By doing too many things, it can make a wild swing in the other direction. Having a well thought out plan based around hydration therapy is all we ever use here. And it really helps to understand the dynamics of how a rabbit's gut works. An example is simethicone....when used with a gas event, it is very effective. When used in a stasis event, it can be constipating which is the exact opposite of what you want. And if you mix certain pain meds with simethicone in a stasis event, things slow down even further. And gut motility drugs are always a no-no. I have been preaching fluid therapy the entire time I have been a member of this forum. In our rescue, being able to administer fluids has saved many rabbits that would have died otherwise. Look in our blog...Miracle and Zakk are a couple of prime examples If you need more proof of the value of being able to administer fluids...I think Peg is a testimonial to that. Learning to do fluids is quite simple....any entry level vet tech can teach you in just a few minutes. Being able to give fluids is nothing short of a life saver. And a side benefit....it might just save a vet visit. Another benefit...you can buy lots of fluids and supplies forless than the vet charges for one round of fluids. Most vets are happy to teach you if you ask to learn.
Randy
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
ra7751 wrote:
When I say this - please understand - I am NOT saying folks should not visit vets. I'm not saying, "don't go to a vet".
I honestly think that every rabbit owner (or at least those who own 2 or more rabbits) should learn how to give sub-q fluids AND keep lactated ringers and syringes on hand. I think the lactated ringers cost me about $12 for a big bag (think of an IV bag from when you're in a hospital) and the syringes were...maybe $1 each or so. I buy them in bulk.
This is especially true if you live someplace where you don't have vets nearby OR if you don't have vets open at night....or if you maybe wouldn't have a lot of money for a vet visit but you would be able to afford to keep this on hand.
As I've told Randy and a couple of others privately....I never ever ever thought that New Hope was going to make it. It was several days before I even shared about him on here because I literally had NO hope for him. I almost didn't even try the lactated ringers (sub q fluids) because I felt like he was too far gone in just a short period of time ~ but I had to fight for him and give him another chance.
Giving the shots is not fun...nor is it "easy". (It isn't hard either - just it isn't easy because the rabbit may squirm a bit). The last time we gave New Hope a shot, Art refused to give him the full dose because he was obviously so uncomfortable and he felt like we were "torturing" him. I think he is glad now that I insisted that we give New Hope the shots.
Please understand that what I'm saying is personal opinion here ~ and not everyone will feel comfortable with the idea. I didn't want to give sub-q shots and I used to make Art do them till Minnie got dehydrated and was really bad. Art wasn't due home for like 4 hours...and I realized I had to do the shot. She went from just laying listless to moving around 20 minutes later and fighting me when I went to put her in her cage....and that was just from 20 cc or so of sub q fluids.
I am always amazed at the difference in a rabbit about 15-20 minutes after they get the sub-q fluids. Sometimes they sit up and groom themselves. Sometimes they flick me off. Sometimes they simply seem to feel better.
So I'll get off my soapbox now ~ but if this message encourages even one person to learn how to do this - and then maybe save their rabbit's life some late night or weekend because there is no vet available...then it is worth it.
Peg
I want to say something here and I've been wanting to say it for a few days - but afraid to say it because I didn't want to get flamed or misunderstood.
When I say this - please understand - I am NOT saying folks should not visit vets. I'm not saying, "don't go to a vet".
I honestly think that every rabbit owner (or at least those who own 2 or more rabbits) should learn how to give sub-q fluids AND keep lactated ringers and syringes on hand. I think the lactated ringers cost me about $12 for a big bag (think of an IV bag from when you're in a hospital) and the syringes were...maybe $1 each or so. I buy them in bulk.
This is especially true if you live someplace where you don't have vets nearby OR if you don't have vets open at night....or if you maybe wouldn't have a lot of money for a vet visit but you would be able to afford to keep this on hand.
As I've told Randy and a couple of others privately....I never ever ever thought that New Hope was going to make it. It was several days before I even shared about him on here because I literally had NO hope for him. I almost didn't even try the lactated ringers (sub q fluids) because I felt like he was too far gone in just a short period of time ~ but I had to fight for him and give him another chance.
Giving the shots is not fun...nor is it "easy". (It isn't hard either - just it isn't easy because the rabbit may squirm a bit). The last time we gave New Hope a shot, Art refused to give him the full dose because he was obviously so uncomfortable and he felt like we were "torturing" him. I think he is glad now that I insisted that we give New Hope the shots.
Please understand that what I'm saying is personal opinion here ~ and not everyone will feel comfortable with the idea. I didn't want to give sub-q shots and I used to make Art do them till Minnie got dehydrated and was really bad. Art wasn't due home for like 4 hours...and I realized I had to do the shot. She went from just laying listless to moving around 20 minutes later and fighting me when I went to put her in her cage....and that was just from 20 cc or so of sub q fluids.
I am always amazed at the difference in a rabbit about 15-20 minutes after they get the sub-q fluids. Sometimes they sit up and groom themselves. Sometimes they flick me off. Sometimes they simply seem to feel better.
So I'll get off my soapbox now ~ but if this message encourages even one person to learn how to do this - and then maybe save their rabbit's life some late night or weekend because there is no vet available...then it is worth it.
Peg
polly
Well-Known Member
I agree with you Peg Sub Q is not something we have had to do yet but i am gonna get the vet to teach Bruce (i would do it but i have bad repetitive strain in my hands and don't always hold things very well!) We have had to give a few of our buns antibiotics by injection in the past and our vet taught Bruce how to do that. It saved us a lot of money and a lot of petrol!! It also stops your buns from getting more stressed out from the journey if you can do it at home. I can think of at least 1 of mine that if i had them on hand there might have been more of a chance for him.
maherwoman
Well-Known Member
I also wanted to say...
I agree wholeheartedly with ya, Peg.
I, personally, am in the process of putting together protocols for what to do in various situations (as I, like many bun owners, panic slightly and just lose any and all knowledge of how to do something...no matter how well I know any other time)...this is something I'm asking for Randy's help with.
Also, we're going to learn how to sub q's, as well as any sort of injections and/or treatments that might save our buns' lives, if needed.
We're going to have at least eight, once we're all moved...so I thought it would be best that we do this. We'll have money for vet visits, don't get me wrong...more than enough (also with the fact that we're going to put money aside for vet things, just in case)...it's just that if there's something I can do when the vet's closed and if it happens that the bun-savvy vet isn't at the two emergency clinics near us, then we can be capable of doing what needs doing to save our buns' lives.
I think it's vital that we (as well as others) do this...
Hugs!
I agree wholeheartedly with ya, Peg.
I, personally, am in the process of putting together protocols for what to do in various situations (as I, like many bun owners, panic slightly and just lose any and all knowledge of how to do something...no matter how well I know any other time)...this is something I'm asking for Randy's help with.
Also, we're going to learn how to sub q's, as well as any sort of injections and/or treatments that might save our buns' lives, if needed.
We're going to have at least eight, once we're all moved...so I thought it would be best that we do this. We'll have money for vet visits, don't get me wrong...more than enough (also with the fact that we're going to put money aside for vet things, just in case)...it's just that if there's something I can do when the vet's closed and if it happens that the bun-savvy vet isn't at the two emergency clinics near us, then we can be capable of doing what needs doing to save our buns' lives.
I think it's vital that we (as well as others) do this...
Hugs!
gentle giants
Well-Known Member
I have a couple of questions about this. First, I totally agree with Peg and Randy that if you can do thigns like the sub-q fluids at home it can be a real life saver. I recently learned how to do injections on my rabbits, but I would really like to learn how to do the sub-q's as well. WhatI would like to know is, what do you mean by lactated ringers? Also, where do you get the syringes, and what size?
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
This is what a bag of lactated ringers looks like when I get it from the vet. It is what they use for IVs (or one of their options).
You can also see it (and description) here:
http://www.entirelypets.com/lari.html?gclid=CMyl3K2J5Y8CFQ2aOAodYAsbMg
Here's a link to information on Wikepedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactated_Ringer's_solution
Randy is probably the best one to ask about syringes. I get the insulin 1 cc syringes from Walmart or grocery stores for meds - but I have purchased the 20 cc and 60 cc syringes from the feed store. I think I've seen them on Ebay too.
Peg
Pipp
Well-Known Member
Thanks Peg!
I was just saying to Randy how confused I was about what a 'Lactated Ringer' looked like. (Doesn't look like it sounds).
We're trying to put together a photo and a video demonstration for the Library, hopefully that can happen soon.
(Peg I'm sure will add herpic/info).
sas :bunnydance:
I was just saying to Randy how confused I was about what a 'Lactated Ringer' looked like. (Doesn't look like it sounds).
We're trying to put together a photo and a video demonstration for the Library, hopefully that can happen soon.
(Peg I'm sure will add herpic/info).
sas :bunnydance:
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
so the lactated part means that it has lactate in it, which is there to make it have the same concentration of stuff in it as blood and make its pH more balanced. a ringer's solution is a common name for a solution of salts. the salts are there because they have the body retain the fluid, instead of just passing it out the bladder. plus the fluid in an organism has to contain a certain concentration of different types of salts to keep cells happy. the lactated ringer name just tells you what's in it.
my question is, if we ever suspect stasis, do we go to the vet immediately? what if the vet insists on gut motility drugs and won't show us how to inject the lactated ringers/won't give them to us because they think the gut motility drugs are the best course of action?
also, how do you get the lactated ringer? only from a vet? or is it something you could get elsewhere? and do you use that same bag over and over again? i think once it had been pierced once the sterility would be compromized, and you'd have to reseal the hole or something... does it come in bottles with rubber septa on top?
thanks!
my question is, if we ever suspect stasis, do we go to the vet immediately? what if the vet insists on gut motility drugs and won't show us how to inject the lactated ringers/won't give them to us because they think the gut motility drugs are the best course of action?
also, how do you get the lactated ringer? only from a vet? or is it something you could get elsewhere? and do you use that same bag over and over again? i think once it had been pierced once the sterility would be compromized, and you'd have to reseal the hole or something... does it come in bottles with rubber septa on top?
thanks!
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
I use the bag for up to a month once it has been pierced.
However, each piercing is with a fresh, sterile needle. Once I've started using it - I hang it up (my vet told me to do this - not sure why). I think Randy says he uses a bag for up to one month....I'm hoping he'll check in on this thread w/ more information.
I also use the lactated ringers to "cut" the meds when I give Pen G (since it stings) - or is it Pen B? Whatever it is - the pencillin which has something added to it.
You can use this site to find out the dose:
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html
I was using a really really low dose 'cause I was scared to do it (the most I did at one time was 20 cc and with New Hope and also Minnie - I gave 20 cc and then waited an hour or so and did another 20 cc). Randy told me he would do more.
I recommend - and once again - please understand - I'm NOT saying don't go to your vet. OK? But I'd recommend talking to your vet - and asking if they would teach you to do sub q fluids and if they'd let you buy a fresh bag of this and some syringes "just in case" your rabbit should go into stasis over the weekend or during a night when they're closed, etc.
My vet who won't even look at my rabbits - is willing to sell me the lactated ringers. She won't let me get any meds though - just this. (My next nearest vet is 70 miles one way).
As far as what to do....if my rabbit went into stasis - I think I'd be giving this before going to the vet (as long as I used the dosage calculator). I have seen amazing results in a listless animal just moments after getting sub q fluids.
I'm sure there are some things sub q fluids maybe shouldn't be used for - I can't think of anything.
I was watching New Hope today - he's still a bit weak and not quite himself. But he's eating and pooping and to be honest with you - I am still in shock everytime I see that he's still alive.
Peg
However, each piercing is with a fresh, sterile needle. Once I've started using it - I hang it up (my vet told me to do this - not sure why). I think Randy says he uses a bag for up to one month....I'm hoping he'll check in on this thread w/ more information.
I also use the lactated ringers to "cut" the meds when I give Pen G (since it stings) - or is it Pen B? Whatever it is - the pencillin which has something added to it.
You can use this site to find out the dose:
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html
I was using a really really low dose 'cause I was scared to do it (the most I did at one time was 20 cc and with New Hope and also Minnie - I gave 20 cc and then waited an hour or so and did another 20 cc). Randy told me he would do more.
I recommend - and once again - please understand - I'm NOT saying don't go to your vet. OK? But I'd recommend talking to your vet - and asking if they would teach you to do sub q fluids and if they'd let you buy a fresh bag of this and some syringes "just in case" your rabbit should go into stasis over the weekend or during a night when they're closed, etc.
My vet who won't even look at my rabbits - is willing to sell me the lactated ringers. She won't let me get any meds though - just this. (My next nearest vet is 70 miles one way).
As far as what to do....if my rabbit went into stasis - I think I'd be giving this before going to the vet (as long as I used the dosage calculator). I have seen amazing results in a listless animal just moments after getting sub q fluids.
I'm sure there are some things sub q fluids maybe shouldn't be used for - I can't think of anything.
I was watching New Hope today - he's still a bit weak and not quite himself. But he's eating and pooping and to be honest with you - I am still in shock everytime I see that he's still alive.
Peg
