Myxomatosis
- Thread starter Carolyn
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dreamgal042
Well-Known Member
*scratch head* whats that?
rabbitgirl
Well-Known Member
very horrible, very contagious rabbit disease....
every now and then there is a case in the US, but is usually contained quickly. I don't know about the most recent one.
Rose
every now and then there is a case in the US, but is usually contained quickly. I don't know about the most recent one.
Rose
MyBunnyLovesMe
Well-Known Member
[align=left]What causes myxomatosis
The disease myxomatosis in rabbits is caused by a virus. Thevirus is a type of pox virus which grows best in the skin of rabbits.like all viruses the organism is minute and can only be seen under theelectron microscope.
[align=left]What are the signs of myxomatosis
The very first signs we can see are puffy, fluid swellings around the head and face. 'sleepy eyes' are a classic sign along with swollen lips, tiny swellings on the insides of the ear and puffy swellings around the anus and genitalia. Within a day or so, these swellings can become so severe as to cause blindness and there maybecome some distortion around the face, mouth, ears and nose.[/align]
[align=left]Which rabbits are susceptible to myxomatosis
In this country, the European rabbit ( Oryctolagus ) is highly susceptible to the disease. The European brown hare is sometimes, butrarely, affected with myxomatosis.
What breeds of rabbit are affected
All breeds of rabbit are affected, including our wild rabbit found in the country, all breeds of pet and show rabbits including dwarf rabbits, lop eared rabbits and exotics. There is little evidence that one breed is more susceptible than another.[/align]
Where did myxomatosis come from?
Originally, myxomatosis was imported from Brazil (where it was first discovered in the 1930's) to Australia in 1950.this was tocontrol the massive populations of rabbits in that sub-continent. In Brazil, the cotton Tailed rabbit (Sylvilagus) is affected by the disease to a minor degree as only tiny lumps are produced by thisself-limiting disease. However, in Australia the disease wasdevastating and markedly reduced the rabbit population.
[/align]
How did the disease get to Britain?
The disease was transmitted from Australia by a French Physician, doctor A Delille, who wished to control the rabbit population on his country estate near Paris. The disease rapidly spreadinto the wild population in France and then was brought, entirely byaccident, from France in 1953. There is no evidence that the diseasewas intentionally brought into Britain but there is no doubt that some farmers moved the disease around using diseased rabbits to control thepopulation of the rabbits locally.
How is the disease spread.
Myxomatosis is spread by blood sucking insects. A major insectparasite which transmits the disease in this country is the rabbit fleawhich is frequently found on wild rabbits although is less common onpet rabbits. In other countries, including some European countries, itis known that mosquitoes are a major insect vector of Myxomatosis.Although this has never been proved in Britain, there is strongcircumstantial evidence that mosquitoes transmit Myxomatosis in theUnited Kingdom. Incidentally, Myxomatosis is not easily spread bysimple contact from one rabbit to another. For instance if aMyxomatosis-infected rabbit is placed in the same hutch as a healthy rabbit and neither animal is parasitised by fleas or mosquitoes, thenthe disease is virtually never transmitted by contact. Myxomatosisvirus can remain alive in the blood of fleas for many months and it isprobably by over wintering of fleas in rabbit burrows the disease istransmitted from year to year
What happens when a Myxomatosis-infected flea bites a susceptible rabbit?
As the mosquito or flea bites the rabbit a small amount of thelive virus is placed in the skin of the rabbit as the insect sucksblood. Within a few days the virus is transmitted to a local lymph nodeand then passes into the blood of the rabbit which enables it to bemoved around to several sites. The virus mainly multiples in the skinaround the eyes ,the nose ,the face, the soft skin inside the ears andalso the skin around the anus and genitals of the rabbit.
What is the incubation period of Myxomatosis?
The incubation period varies slightly from one animal toanother but can be as short as five days and as long as fourteen days (incubation period is the time from the point of introduction of thevirus into the animal to the first time that clinical signs of illnessare seen).
After infection how long do rabbits usually survive.
This also varies. Some animals may survive for weeks or months after infection but, in general, if the infection is severe in asusceptible rabbit, death occurs within twelve days.
How does the disease progress?
Within a short space of time, affected rabbits become blind because of the swelling around the eyes and for this reason feeding and drinking is often difficult. However, one can sometimes see wildrabbits suffering from Myxomatosis quietly grazing. Of course, at this stage many rabbits become prey to animals such as foxes and other predators. Other rabbits may well become injured or killed on roads butthe common cause of death is a secondary lung infection which oftenoccurs around day eight after the initial incubation of the disease. Inpet rabbits, the disease often progresses more slowly and death is notso rapid because of the care which the owner gives the rabbit.
Do all affected rabbits die?
Not all affected rabbits die. Although recovery is rare in the wild (probably less than 10% of wild rabbits eventually recover frommyxomatosis) recovery may be more common in pet rabbits with intensivenursing. (if care is taken with feeding, making sure that water is available and medical care to combat pneumonia is given then recovery rates in pet rabbits are higher than in the wild but are variabledepending on the severity of the disease.)
However, a word of warning -Myxomatosis can be very protracted diseaseand affected animals may take weeks or months to recover. Even then there may be severe scaling, scabbing and scaring on the head and body.
How can the disease be controlled?
The disease can be controlled by two main methods
1.Controll of insect parasites.
2.Use of vaccines.
Controlling insects?
Flea control is important and may involve not keeping wild rabbits away from pet animals but also positive use of flea control measures such as sprays, dips and insect repellant strips.Incidentally, there is some evidence that the domestic cat, which canoften be affected with rabbit fleas, may be a secondary transmitter ofthe rabbit flea. Obviously, isolating pet rabbits from possible close contact with wild rabbits is sensible. Do not forget to control mosquitoes-it may be possible to use mosquito nets and insect repellentstrips. Care should be taken that the bedding of animals is kept dryand that pet rabbits are not kept in moist conditions which favour mosquito activity. Veterinary surgeons will be able to give advice on flea and mosquito chemical control
Use of vaccine against myxomatosis
In Britain the licensed vaccine for the control of myxomatosisis ''Nobivac Myxo''. This vaccine utilises a virus called the shopefibroma virus which is closely related to the myxomatosis virus butdoes not cause disease. Occasionally, it is possible to see a tiny swelling at the site of vaccination but usually no signs are obviousafter vaccination. this similar virus induces a degree of protectionagainst myxomatosis. It is not a new principal to use a similar virusto control disease. For instance, Edward Jenner made the firstsuccessful vaccination in 1796 against smallpox by immunizing a patientwith the cow pox virus. there are several other examples of relatedviruses being use to control disease in animals and man.
Is the vaccine live or dead?
Nobivac myxo is a live vaccine containing the shope fibromavirus. However, the virus does not readily spread from one animal toanother and all rabbits in a group should be individually vaccinated.
Does the vaccine cause disease?
No. Nobivac Myxo does not cause illness in vaccinated rabbitsthe only clinical signs that may be seen are sometimes a slight lump atthe sight of vaccination. This is a good sign as it shows that the virus has actually cause a swelling in the skin and this should confera strong protection against Myxomatosis.
Does the vaccination guarantee protection against the disease?
No, vaccination can never guarantee protection against anydisease but Nobivac Myxo when properly used, offers the best available chance of producing immunity against Myxomatosis. Rabbits that areexposed to Myxomatosis, but have a degree of immunity, do not usually develop the disease Myxomatosis. However, they may develop a form of Myxomatosis (atypical Myxomatosis) which presents as small skinlumps/nodules which resolve over a period of time. Extreme care must betaken to avoid stress and other ailments. It must always be rememberedthat rabbits are very susceptible to stress. Rabbits also suffer fromcommon ailments which can prove fatal, one of which is Pasteurellosis.Pasteurella bacteria are present in the majority of rabbits usuallywithout making their presence known, but at times of stress or illness,can cause signs of disease most commonly respiratory disease. This organism is the cause of "snuffles" in rabbits.
What is the vaccination schedule
A single vaccination should be given to rabbits over six weeksof age. Rabbits should not be vaccinated during pregnancy. Only healthy rabbits should be vaccinated. The vaccine may not be effective in rabbits incubating the disease at the time of vaccination. Followin ginitial vaccination rabbits should not be exposed to infection for atleast fourteen days. Some animals may be immunologically incompetentand fail to respond to vaccination.
Are boosters necessary?
Boosters are suggested annually for rabbits which are not undera heavy challenge from the disease. However, animals which are likely to be heavily challenged by the disease e.g. rabbits in a rabbitsanctuary, rabbits close to wild rabbits in a area where Myxomatosis,rabbits with a heavy flea population or rabbits in a area where Myxomatosis is rife are best vaccinated twice a year. Incidentally,most Myxomatosis in Britain occurs in the late summer, autumn and earlywinter months. When giving a single annual vaccination it is possiblybest to vaccinate in May or June so that animals have the bestprotection during the autumn and early winter months. However, doremember that Myxomatosis can affect animals during any month of the year.
Nobivac Myxo
Nobivac Myxo is available from veterinary surgeons in theUnited Kingdom. It is a prescription only medicine (POM) and uponvaccination owners will be provided with a certificate of vaccination.The vaccine is available in a single dose vials for early administration.
Mircochipping
You vaccinate your rabbit against the risk of disease. But what do you do to identify your pet and guard against the risk of your rabbit getting lost? Microchipping is administered in the same way as avaccination by simple injection and places a tiny microchip number canbe retrieved by a simple portable scanner held by allcharity, welfare and animal organisations who can use this number tolink to your personal details stored on the national data base. There by your pet becomes uniquely identifiable to you following one simplevisit to your vet.
The disease myxomatosis in rabbits is caused by a virus. Thevirus is a type of pox virus which grows best in the skin of rabbits.like all viruses the organism is minute and can only be seen under theelectron microscope.
[align=left]What are the signs of myxomatosis
The very first signs we can see are puffy, fluid swellings around the head and face. 'sleepy eyes' are a classic sign along with swollen lips, tiny swellings on the insides of the ear and puffy swellings around the anus and genitalia. Within a day or so, these swellings can become so severe as to cause blindness and there maybecome some distortion around the face, mouth, ears and nose.[/align]
[align=left]Which rabbits are susceptible to myxomatosis
In this country, the European rabbit ( Oryctolagus ) is highly susceptible to the disease. The European brown hare is sometimes, butrarely, affected with myxomatosis.
What breeds of rabbit are affected
All breeds of rabbit are affected, including our wild rabbit found in the country, all breeds of pet and show rabbits including dwarf rabbits, lop eared rabbits and exotics. There is little evidence that one breed is more susceptible than another.[/align]
Where did myxomatosis come from?
Originally, myxomatosis was imported from Brazil (where it was first discovered in the 1930's) to Australia in 1950.this was tocontrol the massive populations of rabbits in that sub-continent. In Brazil, the cotton Tailed rabbit (Sylvilagus) is affected by the disease to a minor degree as only tiny lumps are produced by thisself-limiting disease. However, in Australia the disease wasdevastating and markedly reduced the rabbit population.
[/align]
How did the disease get to Britain?
The disease was transmitted from Australia by a French Physician, doctor A Delille, who wished to control the rabbit population on his country estate near Paris. The disease rapidly spreadinto the wild population in France and then was brought, entirely byaccident, from France in 1953. There is no evidence that the diseasewas intentionally brought into Britain but there is no doubt that some farmers moved the disease around using diseased rabbits to control thepopulation of the rabbits locally.
How is the disease spread.
Myxomatosis is spread by blood sucking insects. A major insectparasite which transmits the disease in this country is the rabbit fleawhich is frequently found on wild rabbits although is less common onpet rabbits. In other countries, including some European countries, itis known that mosquitoes are a major insect vector of Myxomatosis.Although this has never been proved in Britain, there is strongcircumstantial evidence that mosquitoes transmit Myxomatosis in theUnited Kingdom. Incidentally, Myxomatosis is not easily spread bysimple contact from one rabbit to another. For instance if aMyxomatosis-infected rabbit is placed in the same hutch as a healthy rabbit and neither animal is parasitised by fleas or mosquitoes, thenthe disease is virtually never transmitted by contact. Myxomatosisvirus can remain alive in the blood of fleas for many months and it isprobably by over wintering of fleas in rabbit burrows the disease istransmitted from year to year
What happens when a Myxomatosis-infected flea bites a susceptible rabbit?
As the mosquito or flea bites the rabbit a small amount of thelive virus is placed in the skin of the rabbit as the insect sucksblood. Within a few days the virus is transmitted to a local lymph nodeand then passes into the blood of the rabbit which enables it to bemoved around to several sites. The virus mainly multiples in the skinaround the eyes ,the nose ,the face, the soft skin inside the ears andalso the skin around the anus and genitals of the rabbit.
What is the incubation period of Myxomatosis?
The incubation period varies slightly from one animal toanother but can be as short as five days and as long as fourteen days (incubation period is the time from the point of introduction of thevirus into the animal to the first time that clinical signs of illnessare seen).
After infection how long do rabbits usually survive.
This also varies. Some animals may survive for weeks or months after infection but, in general, if the infection is severe in asusceptible rabbit, death occurs within twelve days.
How does the disease progress?
Within a short space of time, affected rabbits become blind because of the swelling around the eyes and for this reason feeding and drinking is often difficult. However, one can sometimes see wildrabbits suffering from Myxomatosis quietly grazing. Of course, at this stage many rabbits become prey to animals such as foxes and other predators. Other rabbits may well become injured or killed on roads butthe common cause of death is a secondary lung infection which oftenoccurs around day eight after the initial incubation of the disease. Inpet rabbits, the disease often progresses more slowly and death is notso rapid because of the care which the owner gives the rabbit.
Do all affected rabbits die?
Not all affected rabbits die. Although recovery is rare in the wild (probably less than 10% of wild rabbits eventually recover frommyxomatosis) recovery may be more common in pet rabbits with intensivenursing. (if care is taken with feeding, making sure that water is available and medical care to combat pneumonia is given then recovery rates in pet rabbits are higher than in the wild but are variabledepending on the severity of the disease.)
However, a word of warning -Myxomatosis can be very protracted diseaseand affected animals may take weeks or months to recover. Even then there may be severe scaling, scabbing and scaring on the head and body.
How can the disease be controlled?
The disease can be controlled by two main methods
1.Controll of insect parasites.
2.Use of vaccines.
Controlling insects?
Flea control is important and may involve not keeping wild rabbits away from pet animals but also positive use of flea control measures such as sprays, dips and insect repellant strips.Incidentally, there is some evidence that the domestic cat, which canoften be affected with rabbit fleas, may be a secondary transmitter ofthe rabbit flea. Obviously, isolating pet rabbits from possible close contact with wild rabbits is sensible. Do not forget to control mosquitoes-it may be possible to use mosquito nets and insect repellentstrips. Care should be taken that the bedding of animals is kept dryand that pet rabbits are not kept in moist conditions which favour mosquito activity. Veterinary surgeons will be able to give advice on flea and mosquito chemical control
Use of vaccine against myxomatosis
In Britain the licensed vaccine for the control of myxomatosisis ''Nobivac Myxo''. This vaccine utilises a virus called the shopefibroma virus which is closely related to the myxomatosis virus butdoes not cause disease. Occasionally, it is possible to see a tiny swelling at the site of vaccination but usually no signs are obviousafter vaccination. this similar virus induces a degree of protectionagainst myxomatosis. It is not a new principal to use a similar virusto control disease. For instance, Edward Jenner made the firstsuccessful vaccination in 1796 against smallpox by immunizing a patientwith the cow pox virus. there are several other examples of relatedviruses being use to control disease in animals and man.
Is the vaccine live or dead?
Nobivac myxo is a live vaccine containing the shope fibromavirus. However, the virus does not readily spread from one animal toanother and all rabbits in a group should be individually vaccinated.
Does the vaccine cause disease?
No. Nobivac Myxo does not cause illness in vaccinated rabbitsthe only clinical signs that may be seen are sometimes a slight lump atthe sight of vaccination. This is a good sign as it shows that the virus has actually cause a swelling in the skin and this should confera strong protection against Myxomatosis.
Does the vaccination guarantee protection against the disease?
No, vaccination can never guarantee protection against anydisease but Nobivac Myxo when properly used, offers the best available chance of producing immunity against Myxomatosis. Rabbits that areexposed to Myxomatosis, but have a degree of immunity, do not usually develop the disease Myxomatosis. However, they may develop a form of Myxomatosis (atypical Myxomatosis) which presents as small skinlumps/nodules which resolve over a period of time. Extreme care must betaken to avoid stress and other ailments. It must always be rememberedthat rabbits are very susceptible to stress. Rabbits also suffer fromcommon ailments which can prove fatal, one of which is Pasteurellosis.Pasteurella bacteria are present in the majority of rabbits usuallywithout making their presence known, but at times of stress or illness,can cause signs of disease most commonly respiratory disease. This organism is the cause of "snuffles" in rabbits.
What is the vaccination schedule
A single vaccination should be given to rabbits over six weeksof age. Rabbits should not be vaccinated during pregnancy. Only healthy rabbits should be vaccinated. The vaccine may not be effective in rabbits incubating the disease at the time of vaccination. Followin ginitial vaccination rabbits should not be exposed to infection for atleast fourteen days. Some animals may be immunologically incompetentand fail to respond to vaccination.
Are boosters necessary?
Boosters are suggested annually for rabbits which are not undera heavy challenge from the disease. However, animals which are likely to be heavily challenged by the disease e.g. rabbits in a rabbitsanctuary, rabbits close to wild rabbits in a area where Myxomatosis,rabbits with a heavy flea population or rabbits in a area where Myxomatosis is rife are best vaccinated twice a year. Incidentally,most Myxomatosis in Britain occurs in the late summer, autumn and earlywinter months. When giving a single annual vaccination it is possiblybest to vaccinate in May or June so that animals have the bestprotection during the autumn and early winter months. However, doremember that Myxomatosis can affect animals during any month of the year.
Nobivac Myxo
Nobivac Myxo is available from veterinary surgeons in theUnited Kingdom. It is a prescription only medicine (POM) and uponvaccination owners will be provided with a certificate of vaccination.The vaccine is available in a single dose vials for early administration.
Mircochipping
You vaccinate your rabbit against the risk of disease. But what do you do to identify your pet and guard against the risk of your rabbit getting lost? Microchipping is administered in the same way as avaccination by simple injection and places a tiny microchip number canbe retrieved by a simple portable scanner held by allcharity, welfare and animal organisations who can use this number tolink to your personal details stored on the national data base. There by your pet becomes uniquely identifiable to you following one simplevisit to your vet.
rabbitgirl wrote:
You're quite right, Rose.
The recent one has been detected within the past few months.
Quite scary.
* * * * * * * * *
Michelle,
Excellent information. Thank you for the help in explaning it.
-Carolyn
You're quite right, Rose.
The recent one has been detected within the past few months.
Quite scary.
* * * * * * * * *
Michelle,
Excellent information. Thank you for the help in explaning it.
-Carolyn
Buck Jones
Well-Known Member
Breeder, especially, worry aboutout breaks. Last I heard of, I thought, was somewhere in the midwest and people were cancelling attendance at rabbit shows for fear of contracting the disease. The "trick" is to contain it, ifit rears its ugly head.
From whence have you heard it has appeared, Carolyn? It would be beneficial to know what area(s) may be affected.
Buck
From whence have you heard it has appeared, Carolyn? It would be beneficial to know what area(s) may be affected.
Buck
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Are you sure she was referring to Myxo?Occasional cases along the west coast are not unusual, and epidemicshit California and Oregon occasionally. It would not beunusual to hear of cases from that area.
Pam
Pam
pamnock
Well-Known Member
rabbitgirl wrote:
You may be thinking of VHD, Myxo is notcontagious.VHD is the far more dreaded diseasebecause it is so easily spread. Myxo is spread by insects, sounlikely that it would be picked up at a show or by casualcontact. There have been a few cases of VHD in the US.
Pam
You may be thinking of VHD, Myxo is notcontagious.VHD is the far more dreaded diseasebecause it is so easily spread. Myxo is spread by insects, sounlikely that it would be picked up at a show or by casualcontact. There have been a few cases of VHD in the US.
Pam
pamnock
Well-Known Member
This link gives info on myxo in the US and also has a number you can call if you have questions (Oregon State University)
http://www.vet.oregonstate.edu/VDL/alert/myxomatosis.htm
http://www.vet.oregonstate.edu/VDL/alert/myxomatosis.htm
rabbitgirl
Well-Known Member
Buck Jones wrote:
yeah, that was last year I think. I'm IN the Midwest, so you canimagine I'm paranoid.Oh, I hope it's not here again.....
Rose
yeah, that was last year I think. I'm IN the Midwest, so you canimagine I'm paranoid.Oh, I hope it's not here again.....
Rose
rabbitgirl
Well-Known Member
pamnock wrote:
Ahhhh....yeah, you're right Pam. Do they always euthanize for cases ofmyxo, or can you just get the vaccine? I can't remember if it was VHDor myxo where they euthanised the whole rabbitry a year or two ago.(maybe more, I don't remember)
Breathe, Rose, stop panicking.....lol
i know i'm a worrywart.
Rose
Ahhhh....yeah, you're right Pam. Do they always euthanize for cases ofmyxo, or can you just get the vaccine? I can't remember if it was VHDor myxo where they euthanised the whole rabbitry a year or two ago.(maybe more, I don't remember)
Breathe, Rose, stop panicking.....lol
i know i'm a worrywart.
Rose
rabbitgirl
Well-Known Member
oh yeah...just thought of it...
myxo is the dreaded disease referred to as "the white blindness" in the classic Watership Down.
Rose
myxo is the dreaded disease referred to as "the white blindness" in the classic Watership Down.
Rose
pamnock wrote:
I'm pretty sure of it, but have sent her a note to becertain. She mentioned it to me on the phone onSunday. She mistakingly thought she had put it inthe Mailbag section of the on-line magazine, but it wasn'tthere. Will let you know when I hear back re: confirmation itwas Myxo.
-Carolyn
I'm pretty sure of it, but have sent her a note to becertain. She mentioned it to me on the phone onSunday. She mistakingly thought she had put it inthe Mailbag section of the on-line magazine, but it wasn'tthere. Will let you know when I hear back re: confirmation itwas Myxo.
-Carolyn
Loz n Ebony
Well-Known Member
We have it here in the UK you just have to get your rabbit vaccinated aagainst it and they'll be fine.
-loz
xXx
-loz
xXx
Gabby
Well-Known Member
Loz n Ebony wrote:
We do not have the vaccine in the USA
bunsforlife
Well-Known Member
rabbitgirl wrote:
I was wondering about that... I am reading Watership Down again at thispoint in time... i loved it when I was little, and well Ithought about reading it again because I saw a big stand of the booksat the store hehe, no, I am not impulsive
I was wondering about that... I am reading Watership Down again at thispoint in time... i loved it when I was little, and well Ithought about reading it again because I saw a big stand of the booksat the store hehe, no, I am not impulsive
pamnock
Well-Known Member
rabbitgirl wrote:
That was VHD. Most rabbits with myxo must be euthanized,however, over a period of time, populations will become resistant andfatalities drop. VHD is the one we panic over because it's soeasily spread and can occur anywhere in the US. Myxo's rangeis limited to the western coast and is carried by wildrabbits.
Pam
That was VHD. Most rabbits with myxo must be euthanized,however, over a period of time, populations will become resistant andfatalities drop. VHD is the one we panic over because it's soeasily spread and can occur anywhere in the US. Myxo's rangeis limited to the western coast and is carried by wildrabbits.
Pam
pamnock
Well-Known Member
For those of you who are ARBA members, you'll find Chris Hayhow's article on Myxo in the March/April 2004 issue.
Carolyn -- Did Danielle state *where* the case was diagnosed?The disease is endemic to the western US and has been for manyyears. Last year, the vet diagnosed a rabbit I took in withMyxo (after he carefully consulted *experts*). It washowever, a *mis* diagnosis. I live in PA so the possibilityof a myxo rabbit from PA which has been in an insect free environmentand not closely exposed to any other rabbits was next tonill. My *diagnosis* of a bacterial infection endedup being proven correct after a number of tests were done.The rabbit recovered completely and is doing fine. I did wantto point this out because the owner said she would have trusted thevet's opinion and would have had the rabbit put down ASAP as the vethad suggested to me : (
Pam
Carolyn -- Did Danielle state *where* the case was diagnosed?The disease is endemic to the western US and has been for manyyears. Last year, the vet diagnosed a rabbit I took in withMyxo (after he carefully consulted *experts*). It washowever, a *mis* diagnosis. I live in PA so the possibilityof a myxo rabbit from PA which has been in an insect free environmentand not closely exposed to any other rabbits was next tonill. My *diagnosis* of a bacterial infection endedup being proven correct after a number of tests were done.The rabbit recovered completely and is doing fine. I did wantto point this out because the owner said she would have trusted thevet's opinion and would have had the rabbit put down ASAP as the vethad suggested to me : (
Pam
