My sick bun

[Thumperina]

Paul is approx 5 yo and overweight. About a month ago I took for him to the vet as he wasn't eating. The vet did blood work (CBC didn't work for some reasons -- he wanted us to come back to do it later) his bio chemistry looked OK. The vet prescribed Reglan for motility (anybody familiar with it? ) , meloxidyl, critical care and some sub-q fluids. Paul has rather frequent breathing and the vet said it was because my rabbits don't drink any water.
My rabbits unfortunately don't eat any hay as well (or they just nibble on it). No water, no hay. They eat grass in the yard in the morning and in the evening, Oxbow pellets, and vegetables (I have to say - lots of vegetables since I am concerned about water intake). They never had any issues from a lot of veggies. Their poops are not as large as indoor buns that eat hay have, but they never had runny poop from too much veggies.
I do believe that Paul has some urinary issues due to water intake not being sufficient. He pees little here and there...which probably causing him pain.
I started treatment of everything mentioned above and Paul seemed to be better. I also has been doing the same treatment to his mom, Thumperina (my another bun) who was supposed to die from cancer last Fall (according to another vet). She is another story...
Suddenly, several days ago Paul got worse. It probably was about the same time when the real heat started... It was rather mild before. I had to do a lot of changes with their housing , I have to bring them inside from about noon to about 7 to avoid overheating. The garage where they used to sleep is now impossible to use since it's not air controlled. I attempted to have them spend a night outside in the hutch which they never did before and they freaked out. Otherwise I have to bring them into the house overnight too, they hate it.
It was Friday eve before the Memorial Weekend and I was unable to take Paul to the vet. His breathing was loud, I would say wheezing, his was seen even shaking (got me scared)... We made it thru the 3 day weekend. I was giving him critical care and pain meds. I prayed that he didn't have an infection. He is producing mushy cetatrops, a lot of them... This morning his stool was of a color and consistency of a loose critical care..
The same vet (he is a male) was out sick , I took him to the lady vet who was rather useless. I refused an X Ray because financially I am drained at this time, she said she had to send blood to the lab so we didn't do blood. His temp was 103 something (same as a month ago, which the previous vet said could be due to stress). She gave me Baytril (without any confirmation of an infection).
Right after, I went to the previous vet and asked if they could perform CBC for us since they owed it to us.. I told them I had baytril from another vet but didn't feel like just giving it. They did CBC and said it looked fine (she looked under the microscope). She said that Paul doesn't have an infection and all his problems must be from the stress.
Is it correct to assume that if his CBC is normal then he for sure doesn't have any bad things that require AB therapy?
I have a feeling that my both buns started having excessive cetatrops since I am feeding them critical care. I dont give them much - very little for water and fiber.

What should I do now if Paul eats no hay and drinks no water ? It's HOT outside so I need to feed them veggies but they don't seem to eat them well.

 

[JBun]

It sounds like he's developed diarrhea. Whether or not the stress caused it originally(which it can), it's due to an overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria which would require antibiotics, but the proper one. And baytril isn't necessarily the right one to be using unless the diarrhea is yellowish colored and due to e. coli. If it's more brown colored, the diarrhea could be due to the clostridium bacteria, which would require the antibiotic metronidazole, and cholestyramine to absorb the toxins released by the bacteria. This would also require extra fluids, which is usually accomplished by giving sub q fluids. So if your bun really does have diarrhea caused by clostridium sp., this is actually very critical and needs immediate treatment with the proper meds, and even then it's often fatal. Not saying that your bun absolutely has this, but the type of poop you are describing sounds like diarrhea, and if so true diarrhea is always a critical illness in rabbits regardless of the bacteria causing it.
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Bacterial/Clostridial_enteritis_rabbits.htm

Aside from that, the cause of the stress could be due to an underlying illness. With the increased respiratory effort and noisy breathing, I would suspect something else to be going on internally that isn't showing up in a blood test, and doubt it has anything to do with his fluid intake(which may actually be fine if they are eating mostly moist and not dry vegetation, like wild rabbits do). Things that I would be suspicious of being the cause of the breathing irregularities if they have been an ongoing thing, are a possible mass like a thymoma, or he could even have an enlarged heart. If the breathing problems have been short term(as in occuring for one day, though can be reoccurring) it could be due to something like bloating/gas occurring. These are just guesses of course, based on limited info, so I could be completely wrong and it could be something else entirely. Only way to know would be to have further diagnostics done.

With the diarrhea going on and the underlying health issue, I'm afraid things aren't looking very good. Just the diarrhea itself can be a very critical illness and not often survivable if it's progressed to be more severe. These of course are worst case possibilities, but it may not be as bad as this. I just can't know as I'm not there seeing it. It could be that the breathing and stress was from heat stroke if it was really hot that day and your bun overheated.

Another possibility with you mentioning a little bit of peeing here and there, is that he could have urinary issues such as bladder sludge from calcium build up, bladder stone, or a UTI. In which case, baytril and meloxicam could be helpful to treat the infection and inflammation. Though if there is bladder sludge or a stone, that would need to be taken care of as well.

 

[Thumperina]

JBun, thank you so much! How do we make sure what he has, is there any tests that can be performed? I am afraid that my vet hasn't dealed with it and I don't have access to a better vet. Or should I just ask for metronidazole prescription?
Increased breathing rate is always with him, but loud breathing stopped. I have a feeling that the noises that he was making was really a reaction on me handling him way too much.
Regarding his stool, it was sort of like critical care consistency this morning, then later it was more shaped but still wet and soft and now, I checked, it seems like he has regular more or less dry droppings that are just not perfectly round.
Do I understand correctly that if he has clostridium sp , it would be highly contagious to my another rabbit?

 

[JBun]

If he doesn't have the diarrhea any more, then he probably doesn't have clostridium. That's just if he still had the diarrhea. So he may be in the clear for that.

If he seems to be having urination issues, I would consider giving the baytril, and meloxicam as well. It could be he has a urinary tract infection and that's what set this all off. Just something to consider.

 

[Thumperina]

thank you. Baytril won't mess anything up? I am reading so much about improper use of antibiotics that I am afraid of antibiotics in general.
Also, what would be a way to make sure that he has bacteria in urinary tract? Urinalysis?

 

[Thumperina]

but anyway, critical care won't make anything worse, right? should I give critical care? I saw him eating some veggies but not much

 

[JBun]

They can check the urine for blood, they can do a urinalysis, to determine if he has a UTI. Baytril doesn't usually mess up their gut bacteria. That is why it's so commonly prescribed to rabbits, but on the rare occasion a rabbit can have a negative reaction to it. Usually it's well tolerated though, not necessarily the taste. Most rabbits detest the taste of it.

I'm just throwing ideas out there as to what could be going on with your bun, but I'm just making guesses from the details you've shared. But that's all they are is guesses. With your rabbits being outdoors most of the time, it's going to be harder to pick up on the subtle clues that help point to a specific illness, and it's these subtle changes in body language and symptoms presented that can point to a possible cause in some instances.

If he's used to getting oxbow pellets, the critical care ingredients are similar so shouldn't cause any gut problems. But it's possible it could have been the cause of the messy poop, or it could have been one of the meds he was getting.

 

[Thumperina]

thank you JBun
This night was cool, they spent it in garage that they are so used to. I don't find any liquid poop, all of the right consistency but some of not round shape... and size isn't great but it's pretty normal for my rabbits. Loud breathing stopped but he starts making this noise when he sees me (now I know, it's his reaction to being manipulated too much)
Interestingly, i didn't find any cetatrops at all. usually he produces a lot of them and leaves them behind.
He is just looking sad and unhappy. Doesn't seem to have much appetite. But I m sure, if I brought some treats, he would rush for them (Im not giving any.. I know it's not a possibility in this situation)
I will be taking him for an X ray when I am paid.
I opened the door in the morning, the female ran out immediately. Paul is still lying down there. But it's, again, rather normal for him. It's wet outside.
Tough choice of giving baytril or not...

 

[Kita channel]

Good advice in previous replies but may I add, if your rabbit is overweight make sure fruit is only given as a treat, 1 time a week. Usually it is 1 to 2 times a week but that applies to rabbits in the healthy weight range. Also try and let him run around everyday. Pellets can also have a high fat content (especially low quality ones) so make sure you are not giving too much of it, he needs more hay than pellets. Hope this helps

 

[Thumperina]

thank you. He has all opportunities in the world to be running around. Yes, I know about treats.
Oxbow for rabbits isn't a low quality pellets but he is not eating them now at all, I think. No appetite.
What about Oxbow Simple rewards veggie treats? are they no-no as well ?

 

[Carolann Elliott]

Hi Thumperina, sorry to hear you’re all having a rough time. While you are checking other things out, i think it’s very important to keep your buns cool - their bodies are designed for a cool climate, and heat is a huge stressor for them. You didn’t say why they hate being inside; hopefully you can sort that out for them.

Otherwise, it’s likely that the greatest help you could give is to transition them to a hay diet. The rabbit digestion is designed for large amounts of low quality food, Rich food (pellets, treats, veggies) typically causes a whole host of problems and I suspect that heat, age, weight and shedding (I’m assuming your rabbits began shedding in about February?) have tipped the balance for Paul. Rabbits typically prefer rich food when they can get it, so it takes a combination of things to switch back to hay. Usually, decreasing the pellets helps a great deal. Many rabbit owners use pellets as an addon, sort of like a vitamin pill, giving a tablespoon up to a quarter cup daily. I use the daily pellet ration as a treat, spread out through the day, as well as mixing some of it into the hay so that he has to forage for it. There are lots of ways to encourage hay eating. The House Rabbit Society is a good site, and the Facebook group Bunny Proofing will give lots of workable ideas.

For water, try presenting greens wet. Rabbits often seem to drink only once a day, so it’s easy to miss. If necessary, you can syringe feed water, but it sounds like he’s already eliminating a lot of water, so this may not be the major concern at the moment.

Best wishes to all of you!

 

[Kita channel]

Oxbow is ok to give but I would limit to 1 or 2 times a week just like fruit. Not sure if you know this but also carrots are high in sugar for rabbits and they are considered a treat and too much can cause weight gain. To get him to eat his pellets maybe switch to a different brand or type.

 

[Thumperina]

Oxbow is ok to give but I would limit to 1 or 2 times a week just like fruit. Not sure if you know this but also carrots are high in sugar for rabbits and they are considered a treat and too much can cause weight gain. To get him to eat his pellets maybe switch to a different brand or type.

yes of course I know that carrots are high in sugar and not a good daily food. Thumperina won't eat carrots at all lately (she became very picky even about treats), and I can't remember how long ago Paul was given carrots. For treats, they get dry apple slices (and I do know that they are high in sugar, I am not feeding a lot) and Oxbow Simple rewards veggie treats (Thumperina is also sometimes picky with them).
I don't know where you live, but here in US we don't have a whole variety of healthy pellets (at least not that I know of). Another brand is Sherwood Forest but my buns refused it. He is not eating pellets because he is not feeling well. However, this morning I gave him a large piece of kale when he was alone in the hutch, and he ate it completely with the stem ! I hope his appetite will come back

 

[JBun]

I'm glad he ate something. I guess it's just keeping an eye on him now and hopefully he perks up soon. If you still have some of his meloxicam, I would be inclined to give some. If he's in pain from something, it should help at least a little.

I'm not sure about the oxbow treats as I haven't ever used them. But something to keep in mind about most any treat including oxbow, is that it usually contains grain and sugars, so is going to be high in carbs, which isn't usually a good thing for most rabbits.

Just FYI for those of you also commenting on this thread, Thumperina is a longtime member with a more complicated living and feeding arrangement for her rabbits. Her rabbits are mostly free range outdoors with a more forage based diet, so the typical advice for most rabbit owners isn't really going to be applicable here.

 

[Thumperina]

thank you, JBun and everybody! He seems to be doing better. I am recalling about probably overdoing treats just before he got worse. I forgot to mention, they both love banana... With his weight of 12 lbs (yes...12 banana should be out of the question. But they both are so happy to get a small piece (stopped with bananas right now, of course!)
It's very useful to be learning about conditions like clostridium, just to know!
Anybody had any experience with Sherwood pet health products? they claim they have some supplements, I have gotten urinary support and joint support tablets. They didn't eat from my hand so I was putting them into their pellet bowl. Thumperina didn't accept them, but Paul was eating them. Not sure how much of a use they are... But they could be used instead of treats, since he can't treats and these probably taste like treats. They are not cheap... I am wondering if they are not a scam.
https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/urinary-support/
https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/joint-support/
https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/immune-support/

 

[Thumperina]

Just another thought. I use cardboard boxes a lot around my rabbits. not type of shipping cardboard, I get mine at ALDI, I serve veggies in a flat box top after throwing some hay in it, they prefer shallow (cut off) boxes with hay to poop rather than doing it in a litter box, I have some cardboard boxes for them to hide, and I know that Paul likes to chew some cardboard off these boxes. I just see that cardboard chunks are missing. Sometimes I see chunks around being shredded, but mostly they are just missing. Which means he eats them? I wonder if he is full of cardboard?

 

[Popsicles]

They can eat the cardboard (as long as it doesn’t have lots of ink) assuming they are getting lots of fibre in their diet to help in move along, and it isn’t obsessive and replacing eating the normal diet. My bunny eats all the cardboard she chews (no mess for me to clear up haha) and she’s never had any issues.

 

[Thumperina]

thank you Popsicles. I am afraid that my cardboard is not plain. It's colored. However, he doesn't seem to eat much.
Another question that I am having: how meloxicam and meloxidyl differ? I have been using meloxidyl. Is there a need to monitor vitals when it's used over long period of time? Also, can we trust online pharmacies that they would send you an original product, not counterfeit ? Which pharmacies are trustworthy?

 

[JBun]

Meloxicam is the active ingredient in Meloxidyl. Meloxidyl is just the brand. I've used it long term for my old arthritic rabbit. There is some risk that it can affect the kidneys, so some vets may want to do a blood test to check kidney function. Your bun just had a blood test didn't he?

Most US online pharmacies would be reliable. Especially when you are using a prescription to get prescription items. Getting pharmacy items from overseas would be more risky. Online is the cheapest way to get prescription meds for pets. I got my rabbits meloxidyl online, from Valley Vet. I've also ordered from Drs. Foster and Smith. But there are plenty of others. You can always check online reviews as some companies don't always have the best reviews, usually from problems with orders and poor customer service.

Just a comment on the cardboard eating. A small amount isn't usually going to be a problem, but large pieces and amounts ingested could pose a risk of intestinal obstruction. Reason being is cardboard doesn't disintegrate but can form a gooey mass in the digestive tract. I have read of accounts of rabbits developing an obstruction from cardboard ingestion. So it can happen. But that said, usually it's not going to be a problem for the majority of rabbits.

 

[Thumperina]

thank you JBun
Both rabbits are doing decently.
Must veterinarians release the prescription for filling elsewhere, not in their practice? I mean, do I have a right to demand a prescription copy if I wish to take it somewhere else? (they like people to get their expensive meds, of course)