Lionhead Help!

[MinirexMom]

Another thing to keep in mind, as was mentioned before by someone, is that often times as a Lionhead matures they begin to lose their manes. Singlemanes are more apt to look like no maned Lionheads when they aremoving into their senior years.

While Lionheads were put together from various breeds initially, typically speaking the current reputable breeders out there that are truly working on improving the breed are no longer cross breeding out to other breeds of rabbits. Lionheads have come along far enough that they are a self-sustaining breed.

Speaking of reputable breeders, only double mane rabbits can be shown so singlemane rabbits while not much different can (and I am not saying absolutely will) have more genetic issues such as bad teeth and seizures because they are more likely to be crossbred bunnies. Just something to keep in mind.

I wish you the best of luck in finding the right bunny!

 

[murph72]

Sorry, I just saw this and didn't pipe in sooner. I breed lionheads and can tell you that the whispy hair you're looking for also can be found in some double maned lionheads. My Chewy is about two now and he is a DM buck whose mane seems to keep growing. He likes to throw it around like a teenage girl whose bangs are in his eyes. Certain DM lines do end up with the longer manes, but I have found in my lines that it takes until the end of the first year before it really starts to get that long. Chewy's mane is consistent and he and his offspring are not losing them, because they are double maned. I do agree that the single maned do tend to lose their manes more readily then the double maned in adulthood.

If you want that look, find a breeder who has that in their line or I'd recommend a DM rabbit that already has that in the shelters. You'd be looking mostly at rabbits two years of age from my experience.

I also agree that personality is a must. My lionheads are notoriously not as loveable right out of the nestbox and require more attention to get them to love contact. If you find a lionhead that hasn't been socialized it will be harder to get them to be loveable than a lop that hasn't been socialized (in my experience). I find certain breeds are naturally loveable (well, most of the buns in the breed...some are always breaking the mold) while others require more attention. Skittish lionheads tend to remain that way unfortunately. In other words, put personality before looks.

Good luck in the bunny hunt!

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

That's a good point, murph. Because Lionheads are still being crossed around and worked on for type, their personality has been overlooked to some extent. Breeders have been a lot more focused on getting the correct type than a snuggly personality at this time, which is understandable. Once the type is more perfected, temperament breeding will take control. But these things take time, not everything has fallen together perfectly yet.

So definitely take into account the personality. Don't want to rehash, but I sure agree!

 

[TinysMom]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

That's a good point, murph. Because Lionheads are still being crossed around and worked on for type, their personality has been overlooked to some extent. Breeders have been a lot more focused on getting the correct type than a snuggly personality at this time, which is understandable. Once the type is more perfected, temperament breeding will take control. But these things take time, not everything has fallen together perfectly yet.

So definitely take into account the personality. Don't want to rehash, but I sure agree!

There are also some breeders that really focus on personality also and they'll often state that in their website or talk about it if you speak with them personally.

Now that there are so many lionheads available - it is fairly uncommon (at least according to the lionhead lists I'm on) to hear of people crossing in another breed. A lot of folks don't like that and won't buy until the lionhead for sale is a purebred (has three generations of lionheads behind it).

You have to understand that at first there were very few lionheads in the nation - I'm guessing under 25 or so until a few breeders started bringing them over. The lionheads that were brought over were MUCH MUCH larger and shaped much differently than the "American" lionhead is now. Since there was a very limited gene pool to pull from - the original breeders started crossing in Netherland Dwarves to bring the size down - and also some Holland Lop for the heads and shoulders (I think). This was also done to bring some more variety for color and type, etc. into the bloodlines so that lionheads wouldn't be so imbred.

As of about 2 or 3 years ago....most lionhead breeders felt like there was no longer a need to cross other breeds into the lionheads (well - the majority of the ones I talked to on various lionhead lists).

That doesn't mean it isn't still being done - just that it is much more rare than it was before.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

avabun, sent you a PM

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Tinysmom- I wasn't dissing cross breeding or type breeding, it's necessary when you're working with a limited number of imports. I was just trying to explain that Lionheads are not a vicious breed or anything, it's just that they're still being worked on.

One of my friends had originally imported one of the first LH bucks a number of years ago. So I've been able to follow his progress and keep up with the breed. I was just speaking from what I've seen in this area and the progress he has made.

 

[Sweetie]

murph72 wrote:

Sorry, I just saw this and didn't pipe in sooner. I breed lionheads and can tell you that the whispy hair you're looking for also can be found in some double maned lionheads. My Chewy is about two now and he is a DM buck whose mane seems to keep growing. He likes to throw it around like a teenage girl whose bangs are in his eyes. Certain DM lines do end up with the longer manes, but I have found in my lines that it takes until the end of the first year before it really starts to get that long. Chewy's mane is consistent and he and his offspring are not losing them, because they are double maned. I do agree that the single maned do tend to lose their manes more readily then the double maned in adulthood.

If you want that look, find a breeder who has that in their line or I'd recommend a DM rabbit that already has that in the shelters. You'd be looking mostly at rabbits two years of age from my experience.

I also agree that personality is a must. My lionheads are notoriously not as loveable right out of the nestbox and require more attention to get them to love contact. If you find a lionhead that hasn't been socialized it will be harder to get them to be loveable than a lop that hasn't been socialized (in my experience). I find certain breeds are naturally loveable (well, most of the buns in the breed...some are always breaking the mold) while others require more attention. Skittish lionheads tend to remain that way unfortunately. In other words, put personality before looks.

Good luck in the bunny hunt!

I have a single mane lionhead. Sweetie is her name. She has a calm personality and she will sit with me for about an hour or longer. She isn't real skittish, but sometimes she is. I do love her and my other rabbit, Prince. Sweetie is such a sweetheart, she gives me bunny kisses on my nose when I ask for them and I pet her when she gives me them.

If I have any lionhead questions I will definitely be coming to you murph72 and others as well.

 

[Pipp]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

This is not to say that there is anything wrong with adopting, if you find your ideal bun in a shelter near you. But putting so much time and money into a bun across the country doesn't really make sense when there are SO many bunnies that need help right in your own area, whether they be in a shelter or a breeder's cull.

The final call is up to you of course, it's just a nice option for Lionheads because of where they stand currently as a developing breed. Lots of them need good pet homes!

Good point and great info in this whole thread, thanks to all.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[TinysMom]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

Tinysmom- I wasn't dissing cross breeding or type breeding, it's necessary when you're working with a limited number of imports. I was just trying to explain that Lionheads are not a vicious breed or anything, it's just that they're still being worked on.

One of my friends had originally imported one of the first LH bucks a number of years ago. So I've been able to follow his progress and keep up with the breed. I was just speaking from what I've seen in this area and the progress he has made.

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was arguing with you - because I really wasn't. I guess I tend to get very passionate about the lionhead breed and the history behind it....largely because I find the history so interesting!

About a year or so after I started breeding lionheads - I spoke with Gail Gibbons one night for about 2 hours or so. We talked all about the history of the breed (since she was there at the beginning sorta) - and why the ND were crossed in and why the lops were crossed in, etc. etc. She shared a lot of her concerns about how in the beginning there were very few bloodlines and there was concern about too much inbreeding (or the possibility of it) and then where we've come since then, etc. etc.

I find this information totally fascinating....and frequently on the lionhead lists I'm on - someone will come in and post about thinking about doing a lionhead cross with an angora (to improve the wool) or a lionhead cross with a rex or something else. However - they're frequently a new breeder or new to the lionhead breed and don't know a lot about the lionhead genetics.

So when the lionhead topic comes up - I tend to reach for my :soapbox because I love the breed so much and find their history so darn interesting.

However - the funniest thing is that my "heart breed" is most definitely flemish giants....and if I ever purposely go back into breeding again - it would be with flemish giants - a buck & 2 does and 2 litters per year from each doe....and that would be it.

But I don't see that happening in the immediate future....

 

[kherrmann3]

I had a lionlop (broken black and white pattern) and her ears were still flopped. She was rehomed due to aggression towards my other bunny, but she was OK (although skittish) with people). The lady who I rehomed her to is somewhat afraid of her (Miss Emma (the rabbit) likes to charge her). We didn't have many problems like that when she was here. Her new owner was thinking of rehoming her. If you wanted, I could contact her to see. She is already spayed.

 

[MinirexMom]

I agree that the serious LH breeders are not cross breeding any longer. It is no longer necessary. My best friend is one of the top breeders of LH's in the country and watching the progression of the breed change in the last 5 years has been amazing. To cross breed back out to another breed would really be undoing a lot of the work that has been done already.

When we were at LH Nationals in Columbus it was incredible to see the difference in the animals from around the country and to talk to the breeders about their breeding practices.

 

[TinysMom]

Oh wow - there is nothing like Lionhead Nationals....I was thinking they had 700 lionheads this year - is that correct?

May I ask who your best friend is? I know several of the top breeders....among them Gail Gibbos, Theresa Mueller (sp?), Kim Croak, Dawn Guth, and more. Mind you - I don't know them all "up close and personal" - but I have corresponded with some of them.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

TinysMom wrote:

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

Tinysmom- I wasn't dissing cross breeding or type breeding, it's necessary when you're working with a limited number of imports. I was just trying to explain that Lionheads are not a vicious breed or anything, it's just that they're still being worked on.

One of my friends had originally imported one of the first LH bucks a number of years ago. So I've been able to follow his progress and keep up with the breed. I was just speaking from what I've seen in this area and the progress he has made.

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was arguing with you - because I really wasn't. I guess I tend to get very passionate about the lionhead breed and the history behind it....largely because I find the history so interesting!

About a year or so after I started breeding lionheads - I spoke with Gail Gibbons one night for about 2 hours or so. We talked all about the history of the breed (since she was there at the beginning sorta) - and why the ND were crossed in and why the lops were crossed in, etc. etc. She shared a lot of her concerns about how in the beginning there were very few bloodlines and there was concern about too much inbreeding (or the possibility of it) and then where we've come since then, etc. etc.

I find this information totally fascinating....and frequently on the lionhead lists I'm on - someone will come in and post about thinking about doing a lionhead cross with an angora (to improve the wool) or a lionhead cross with a rex or something else. However - they're frequently a new breeder or new to the lionhead breed and don't know a lot about the lionhead genetics.

So when the lionhead topic comes up - I tend to reach for my :soapbox because I love the breed so much and find their history so darn interesting.

However - the funniest thing is that my "heart breed" is most definitely flemish giants....and if I ever purposely go back into breeding again - it would be with flemish giants - a buck & 2 does and 2 litters per year from each doe....and that would be it.

But I don't see that happening in the immediate future....

No problem! I understand where you're coming from, a lot of people do have false ideas about the LH breed.

I personally think LH's should possibly be crossbred MORE at this point in time. As you said, the gene pool is just so small, they all originate from the same rabbits! I know everyone is trying to work toward getting recognized now though, so I doubt there is more crossing in the near future.

But at any rate, I definitely wasn't trying to be negative in my responses. I've seen the Lionhead breed grow first hand and I'm a little skeptical as to whether they are really consistent enough to be passing at this point and whether they ever will pass just because it's such a unique breed and the mane is so difficult to perfect. They are cute little things and I'd love to see them join the ARBA though. So I'll keep pulling for them!

 

[MinirexMom]

TinysMom wrote:

Oh wow - there is nothing like Lionhead Nationals....I was thinking they had 700 lionheads this year - is that correct?

May I ask who your best friend is? I know several of the top breeders....among them Gail Gibbos, Theresa Mueller (sp?), Kim Croak, Dawn Guth, and more. Mind you - I don't know them all "up close and personal" - but I have corresponded with some of them.

It was around 750 or so. Amazing showing!

My friend is Keniethea Roy better known as 'Nita'.

 

[TinysMom]

If she's Nita from Legendary Minis - she ROCKS. I adore her and her rabbits.

 

[MinirexMom]

No problem! I understand where you're coming from, a lot of people do have false ideas about the LH breed.

I personally think LH's should possibly be crossbred MORE at this point in time. As you said, the gene pool is just so small, they all originate from the same rabbits! I know everyone is trying to work toward getting recognized now though, so I doubt there is more crossing in the near future.

But at any rate, I definitely wasn't trying to be negative in my responses. I've seen the Lionhead breed grow first hand and I'm a little skeptical as to whether they are really consistent enough to be passing at this point and whether they ever will pass just because it's such a unique breed and the mane is so difficult to perfect. They are cute little things and I'd love to see them join the ARBA though. So I'll keep pulling for them!

Actually, OakRidge, I have to respectfully disagree with you here.

There are so many people breeding Lionheads and Lionheads were outcrossed SO much in the beginning that the gene pool is pretty darn wide at this point.

If you want a good example of a a small gene pool take a peek at Thrianta's. It is almost too close for comfort sometimes. No outcrossing and the original import lines are still showing on many 3 and 4 generation pedigrees.

 

[MinirexMom]

TinysMom wrote:

If she's Nita from Legendary Minis - she ROCKS. I adore her and her rabbits.

She is Nita from Birdtown Bunnies. Her pedigrees are prefixed with Roy's. She lives in Western North Carolina.

 

[avabun]

Okay, so after further digging around online - (and without re-reading the entire thread) I think someone also may have mentioned this...that the "bangs" look comes when the bunnies get a bit older?

Does anyone have a pic of a lionhead when it is a baby (looking fuzzy), and then a second picture of the same rabbit once it has molted and gotten the "bangs"?

This may help me to understand what I am looking for.

Sorry that I am a layman to this breed. Thank you all for your patience as I am sure this is a stupid question! But I do appreciate your responses!

 

[murph72]

Yeah, I think that was me. My Chewy was definitely like that and he tends to also sire lionheads that often get the same mane. I'm not sure if I have a picture of him as a baby...nor do I have a great one of him as an adult (that was on my "to do list" of updates for my website. This is a picture of one of his babies that did turn out with that type of mane:

I'm not sure you can tell at 6 weeks of age that it will be whispy. They tend to look like all the other DM babies. I think the only way you can tell is if you see the parents and know that they have that kind of mane. At this young of age they're still shedding out and growing their manes.

This is Chewy at about a year old. His mane has actually grownconsiderably longer since then and some of the shorter hairs closer to his ears have also gotten longer. His center "bangs", if you will, actually fall into his eyes. He reminds me of the kids with the long hair as he sometimes shakes his head to get his hair out of his eyes.

I'd advise you to either get a year old LH that is already developing this type of mane or pick a breeder whose LHs can passon this type of mane in their offspring. Remember though, you can be hair extensions, but you should still worry about personality as well....a bunny shrink for psych evaluations and behavior mod will be way harder to find and more expensive. :biggrin2:

 

[Sweetie]

murph72: Your lionheads are very cute!