Hopes Medical Thread

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You can read the links in the library for more info... (it's all lumped under 'Diarrhea', although it really should be under 'parasites', 'digestiion' and other categories)

Diarrhea

I especially like this article, although I don't know what the experts think of it...

http://www.showbunny.com/gastrointestinal.htm



sas
 
Thanks Sas and Tracy :)

I really ought to of known better getting another sick bun!

She is obviously used to eating everything she passes, that was probably how she survived so long.
 
I've gave her a mixture of meadow and oat hay. They are the only types I have in, I did have sample packs of different kinds but Milly ate them all.

She has ate a lot of hay for her size and took a few mls of Dioralyte. Her stomach is definately softer but still very gassey.

She keeps clicking her front teeth. Is it only the grinding of back teeth that indictes pain?
 
I'm so sorry that you're getting these problems with Hope. Is Hope actually grinding or just tapping her teeth together? I suppose it could still be a sign of pain. Have you been to a vet with her yet?

Out of interest, do you live anywhere near some of the forum members? I think you could really do with some support right now. What you are doing is amazing but I sense that you are blaming yourself forsome of these problems- I know it's hard in your current state of mind but you need to be positive and stop taking the blame for something that isn't your fault. The person at fault here is that breeder who has treated this poor girl so bad.
 
It was kind of a tapping, I don't think she is in pain. I relented and gave her floor time, she has been exploring and running around. She is still tucking into hay and drinking, but I could be wrong.

This sounds terrible but I have'nt took her to the vets yet. I have no money, I still have'nt paid Millys last bill. I do have a dose of metacam in, but I'm not going to give it to her unless I'm told too.

I don't think I live near anyone, I live in Hartlepool in the North-East. This place is keeping me sane right now. :)

I've totally put my barriers up concerning loving Hope, I dare not care too deeply as I don't want to be hurt as much as I do over Milly. I will still care for her and do my best but I won't get too close yet. Does that make sense or do I sound heartless?
 
Weighing in here.....moldy hay....oh boy! I think Pipp mentioned mycotoxins. Mycotoxins are found in moldy food when the mold dies off and it creats these toxic substances (a very simplified explanation). It is found in hay when the hay was baled wet (or has been wet or stored in humid conditions)and then exposed to extreme temperatures. It can also be found in pelleted food. It is a "spot" toxin and may be in only one tiny spot in a bale of hay.....but with pellets it is more easily spread. The symptoms are much like ileus....a total and painful shutdown of the GI tract. Radiology will show an empty GI with lots of gas. The rabbit will not eat and will be hunched in severe pain grinding it's teeth. Sounds something like you have here. This rabbit should be under the care of a very highly skilled rabbit vet immediately. Gastric ulcers are a huge concern with this situation. Remember that ulcers are basically sores that eat thru flesh and a rabbit stomach lining is very thin.

And it is also possible, and we have seen this, that buns that have been on a crappy diet or near starvation have a terrible time establishing their gut again.

I think you have already received some excellent advice. Simethicone is a wonderful thing. I also think Pipp mentioned hay and water....I couldn't agree more. Bunny basics. We have also found that the first thing they will eat coming out of something like this is either dandelion greens or mint.

As far as pumpkin....if you can't find fresh, use the canned pumpkin. It can be found in the baking section of most large supermarkets. There is a difference in "canned" and pie filling. Has to do with the sugar content and sugar is one of the last things this bun needs. Make sure it is the canned type. Be very cautious about over feeding in this situation. Slow and steady with an increasing amount as things begin to stabilize. A rabbit is much like a salt water aqarium...nothing good happens fast.

Can you or someone you know administer sub-q fluids? Hydration is huge in something like this no matter what the cause.

We also usually put these rabbits on a controversial treatment of antibiotics. When the gut collapses, it kills off the beneficial bacteria. The toxin from the decay is what is giving your bun the gas...and probably an odor too. The bacteria that takes over is toxic...mostly e coli and clostridium. She needs a specific antibiotic to target the clostridium.

Pain meds, other than simethicone, are also controversial in these cases. Most of the good ones have an overall negative effect on the GI tract but it might be a case of the lesser of the evils.

Do you have a heating pad? If not...find one. This is a wildlife trick to prevent shock in sick/injured animals but it also works in this case. Heat her up. Her body temp is probably getting low and that may lead to shock. We use a box or small carrier. Put a towel over the heating pad and place the box/carrier over part of the heating pad. Part of the carrier should be off the pad so she can move away from the heat if she desires. The bottom of the carrier should be warm to the touch.....say maybe just above a rabbit's normal body temp of 40c (about 104 for those of us in the US) if my conversions are correct.

I strongly expect that she is filled with worms and other parasites like coccidia. I would also have a vet take a look at that. Unless he/she thinks parasites are the root of the problem, their treatment would be secondary to the GI issue...but they are most likely a contributing factor.

I feel like Dr. Death much of the time as the animals I deal with on a daily basis have not come in with good health. It really started getting me down for a while. But some people convinced me that these animals were coming to me for a reason. Regardless of if they live or die....they come to you for a reason too. You make them special and we all know what that means to an animal. I made an emergency run to get a rabbit from a vet's office over an hour away. This bun had something similar to what you are describing....just many times worse. The bun died within 10 minutes of us taking him. But he didn't die alone...he died in a real home with people that cared about him....if only for a few minutes he had a good home. My point is not to dwell on death in this statement...but rather to point out that you must have a gift. These animals are coming to you to receive that gift. That is how our rescue got started and why we have so many sick animals here now. I encourage you to further explore this gift you most obviouly have. Best wishes.

Randy
 
Thank you Randy for all your advice, it is appreciated. :)

If I have a gift as you say I don't want it anymore. I get too emotionally involved with all animals to be able to cope with loss.

Good news is Hopes dropping have returned to normal shape, she is still gassey and a little swollen. Does this normally happen then re occur when they have worms?

She is still eating and drinking well and still very active.

Fingers crossed that this episode happened due to starvation and I overloaded her with too much food.

Shall I just continue feeding hay until the gas has subsided? Then slowly introduce pellets instead of her old crap food I was given?
 
ellissian wrote:
I've totally put my barriers up concerning loving Hope, I dare not care too deeply as I don't want to be hurt as much as I do over Milly. I will still care for her and do my best but I won't get too close yet. Does that make sense or do I sound heartless?
You're not heartless, you are still grieving and you are using a defense mechanism to protect yourself, one that many on here will relate to.

I know I certainly do it, and I've met others too, that do.

You can draw comfort from the fact that you have not done anything negative towards this bun, just, like Randy says, providing her with love and comfort when she needs it the most.

I truly hope this story has a positive ending. She's got the right name. My Hope is surviving and fighting, and I deeply hope yours does too.
 
I might have missed it, but did you mention anywhere on here about her falling over and being clumsy?

Could the clumsiness and the possibility of parasites/worms, etc, all be related? i.e. EC? (to someone with knowledge, lol).

And I'm not an expert, but I would keep her on hay and water until her stomach is totally settled.
 
Also I don't think I'm going to get a correct temp reading since she is so small the tip of the thermometer is too big and I will not force it in.

This may sound stupid but is it possible for rabbits normal body temp to differ for some reason. When Milly was burning hot his temp was between 40 and 41c. His normal temp was around 38 ish. Which is around the same reading I got for Hope.

Since she is so active I will hold off the heat pad for now.

She must of had some degree of starvation. She is 12 weeks old and weighs less than a pound, for a German Lop I would expect that to be very under weight.

Thanks again. :)
 
I haven't had to deal with worms/coccidia in rabbits yet but I have in cats. The main symptom my kittens had was that one would get seriously bloated, pass all the gas, get seriously bloated again... The cycle stopped when a fecal test showed coccidia and she and the other kitten started getting treated.

I also agree with a temporary hay and water diet. Maybe add some alfalfa hay to give her more nutrients since she is a baby. My vet had me do this + veggies when I adopted Fey and Sprite, because their awful cruddy food had made them malnutritioned and was giving thembad GI problems.

A good easy way to provide her heat is to put dry rice in a sock and warm it up in the microwave.

Oh, and if her front teeth are clicking it's usually not pain. That's how Fey tooth purrs, and sometimes she "comments" on stuff in that way too. Grinding is usually molars and loud.

*prayers*
 
I did'nt mention her clumsyness, mainly because she has been on my knee at the time and not a solid surface.

I have been watch her while on the floor and she does lose balance slightly when she is stood on her back legs but does'nt fall over. Maybe she has never had the space to stand up before, the hutch she was in was very small.

I can't wait to report this awful woman! For making my little girl and all her other rabbits suffer like this. It's making me so mad!
 
I understand your feeling. It is tough to do sometimes. But something I have come to understand is that it has nothing to do with me and my feelings....it's all about helping them. I have had a tough time especially working with wildlife. Sometimes you have to euthanize and I hate that. I have held a bald eagle in it's last moments on earth. But I have also seen the faces of the ones that I did get thru...and I have many examples right here with me now. It's worth it all for that look especially from an animal that has been treated badly.

But back to Hope, worms and parasites do have a life cycle. One of our buns, a senior lady named Squirt, had ongoing problems with fur loss, itching and bouts of GI issues. We tested for everything but found nothing. As I chart most everything, it was apparent that this condition came in predictable cycles. Ultimately we found she had a heavy infestation of roundworms. We treated for that and she has had no problems for nearly 4 years. They do cause all sorts of GI issues and are many times overlooked. And an unscientific comment (and everyone knows how "clinical" I am) ...a fecal float is not 100% accurate. It all depends on where in the life cycle the parasites are. We have never had any bad reactions to parasite meds (but it is always possible as there can be side effects with any treatment) so we routinely treat for parasites. Since it usually has low risk and the cost of the sometimes inaccurate diagnosis is more than the cost of the treatment, we usually treat for parasites based more on experience than any testing. One of the rare times I will "shotgun" a treatment. Treating for these type parasites are even more important if the bun has been outside or has been fed low quality food.

Randy

Randy
 
When my cat was a kitten she was heavily infested with worms when I first got her. She was not only passing them but was puking them up too.

Can worms kill rabbits? I'm just thinking back to Milly and his issues.

My vets are not the best rabbit savvy vets in the world. What meds are used to treat worms? Just so I can be sure she is getting the right meds and dosage.

Thanks :)
 
ellissian wrote:
I've totally put my barriers up concerning loving Hope, I dare not care too deeply as I don't want to be hurt as much as I do over Milly. I will still care for her and do my best but I won't get too close yet. Does that make sense or do I sound heartless?
That isn't heartless at all, it's normal for you to protect yourself as you're still grieving for Milly. It makes perfect sense :)
 
Worms could contribute to death. Some of the parasites are blood suckers and that can result in anemia. Many of them are just getting a free meal and taking nutrition away from the host. Worming is pretty much standard across the board. We normally deworm and then treat for giardia/coccidia. These are multiple treatments over a period of 4-6 weeks. Usually for worming, the meds are dosed for 3 days then waiting period, another full round of drugs, another waiting period and another round. The first treatment gets the adults, the second the larvae that have hatched and finally the mop up dose. In order to make sure all the parasites are taken care of, follow the dosing instructions precisely.

Randy
 
I feel so guilty now! :(

Randy, I vaguely remember you mentioning the possiblity of Milly having pin worms when I first brought him home. But I did nothing about it!

What if I could of prevented his death! I was'nt a very good pet owner not following advice.
 
You shouldn't assume that and should not blame yourself. I think we can all see that you are a great rabbit mom. Sometimes things just happen. Going back to my wildllife work, I nearly quit doing it because of losing animals. You see so many of the "feel good' stories that networks like Animal Planet show all too often. What they show is the exception rather than the rule. I have done everything right but still wind up losing an animal. What it has taught me is that life is precious and so very delicate.....including our own lives. It's just like with my Sabrina...the namesake of our rescue. Even the vets commented about how things can go bad even if you do all the right things...and wespared no expense or effort....but we lost Sabrina. And your story is so much like my story. I was devastated when we lost Sabrina as I had not idea that little fur bump could mean so much. I didn't want another animal but something told me Sabrina would like me to help other rabbits like I helped her. And that is the short version of how our rescue was born. I feel my little angel in every sick or hurt animal I treat....and it's my way of keeping her spriit alive. The needy animals just keep coming to me even when I thought I couldn't do it anymore....but all it takes is to see an animal in need....sound familiar? Hang in there.

And by the way..not all advice is always good or correct. Sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling.

Randy
 

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