Growling (honking?)

[funnybunnymummy]

I'm not sure what to do. When Gus came to us,7 months ago,he was extremely skittish and aloof. We've been working with him to build trust and get him used to being petted, picked up, handled, and otherwise comfortable around "his people." However, Gus is a decidedly dominant personality and it's become clear he just will not tolerate petting, picking up, handling, etc. unless it's on his terms. It seems like, unless there's food involved, he really couldn't care less about us!

I'm okay with that (though a bit disappointed, given how affectionate some rabbits can be), however hubby and the kids can't seem to understand this. And it's becoming a source of contention. "He's trying to sleep! He doesn't want to be pet!" "Stop pickinghim up!" "Just give him the treat already!" :grumpy:

Gus growls about almost everythingnow (not sure if this is the same thing as "honking"--it sounds like a "GGHHUURRKKK!"). He growls if you try to pet him. He growls if you pick him up (plus scrabbles and kicks). Sometimes he'll growl if you just walk past him.

I'm not sure what to do. I'm not scared of him, he NEVER bites (though he does nudge and nip our clothes), but I am worried that he may progressively become more aggresive. And Ifeelhorrible because I feel like we've donethis in our attempts to socialize him.

Help?

Rue

 

[elrohwen]

It sounds like a growl vs a honk. Honking is more of a happy little honk, while growling sounds agressive/angry.

Does he have a safe place he can go when the kids and husband start bugging him? If they follow him into his cage he might feel like there's nowhere he can get away to.

I would go back to basics with him and just sit on the floor waiting for him to approach. When he comes up, give him a treat. He might just be overwhelmed by the attention. I know my own bun doesn't like to be touched in the mornings. He'll approach me and take treats, but if I try to pet him I get the stink eye and he runs away. However, in the evenings, he loves to snuggle as long as I approach him correctly (he likes to get kisses first, then move into pets). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if he has specific times of the day that he wants to interact with people, your family needs to learn to respect that (it sounds like you already do).

I guess it sounds more like training the fam than training the bun at this point! Put a ban on picking up, and maybe put a ban on petting for a week or two. Just let him approach and give him treats. Also give him a safe place to go where no one is allowed to bug him. It sounds like he feels overwhelemed and if his warning growls aren't listened to I'm afraid he might try boxing or lunging next to get his point across.

 

[jcottonl02]

I agree- if Gus doesn't have his own place where noone else goes- his little sanctuary- he might be getting more and more stressful with the crowding.
He needs somewhere he can run off to and hide, with noone coming after him and trying to give him treats etc. Then when he comes up, he's much more likely to be looking for attention.

My Pippin is incredibly shy, and absolutely terrified of being picked up, which is such a contrast to Benji that it took me a while to get used to it. So while I can just scoop Benji up and carry him round like a baby, happy as can be, probably giving me licks or nose rubs, with Pippin I just need to wait until he comes out of his little private place, for cuddles. And I find the more I "ignore" him, the more he comes venturing out for cuddles, and he ends up asleep on the sofa with me all night or having hour-long grooming sessions .

So maybe what I'm suggesting is almst bunny reverse psychology??? LOL! If he growls at you etc. just walk away immediately, and for the next few hours just ignore him, unless he decides to deliberately come to you. When he does, calmly pet him a little, and when he hops away just leave him to go.

He might start missing it if he stops getting the attention?

I think you have the right idea- when he's sleeping, definately leave him be, cos he's clearly not a "morning" bunny!! If he doesn't like being picked up, then pick him up as little as possible. Instead, make sure to sit on the ground as much as you can. That's what I do now for Pippin. It's the height thing for him. If I'm standing, he'll run like the wind. If I'm sitting down, he'll be incredibly calm and curious, and wanting his cuddles. So when you watch tv, or read a book etc. when you would normally sit on a chair etc., put a cushion on the floor and prop yourself against that, and I think he will be much more inclined to come over and investigate, and maybe tolerate a pet or two for his curiosity.

Also, perhaps get the kids to try just sitting on the floor with their hand out, and a treat in it, but just to leave it. Not call him etc. BUt just wait till he wanders past, sees the treat, eats it, and then leaves, without petting him etc. So he can learn to associate human contact with no forced pets/pick ups etc. but just a calm treat he can take at ease etc.

And then once he is totally used to you all, then start with the slow petting etc.

See if eventually he can get accustomed to being picked up,and if not, then just do it as little as possible, because some rabbits just hate it full stop, and quite rightly so in their nature or being a prey animal- the sensation of being "grasped" and swooped off the ground would bear an uncanny likeness to an eagle attacking etc. :/

Good luck with it all! Let us know if he calms down or what strategies worked.



Jen

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Thanks, guys.

Yes, Gus has his cage (where, oddly enough, he is okay with being petted!) and his hidey box in the dining room, both of whichhecan gotoget awayfrom the kids/hubby. However,he prefers to spend time out and about than in either of those spots.

I'll try talking to the kids and hubby again about giving Gus his space. I've already put a ban on picking him up, just nobody seems to respect that.

Where's a rabbit whisperer to step in when you need one?!?

Rue

 

[jcottonl02]

Lol I love the Dog Whisperer. If there was a Rabbit Whisperer show I would watch it religiously!!! hahaha.

That's good that Gus has those private places. And how odd that he has no problem with pets in his cage! How strange....

Well I guess then enforcing the ban on picking him up is the best way to go for now, it would seem. I guess it's all trial and error- trying something for a period of time, seeing if it works, and if it doesn't, move onto to try something else.

Is it possible he could just be stressed lately? Has perhaps something happened?
Many animals can experience stress in the same sort of...lingering way we do. Not like they dwell on it like we do, but cortisol levels can remain high for weeks sometimes if something stressful has happened to them.

Or has Gus always been like this? He may just still need time to settle in, if he was a skittish, uncomfortable bunny to begin with?

Is he neutered?

Jen

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Yes, he's neutered.

The growling has only become a frequent thing in the last few weeks. Now that I think about it, he and hubby have had a couple run-ins where Gus has growled at hubby and hubby has pinned Gus between his legs for 10-15 seconds (his reasoning isit works for dogs). I didn't really agree with this method, but it didn't hurt Gus (just tick him off! ) and Gus seemed willing enough to forgive hubby with a Craisin or two, so I let it go. But now I'm wondering if this is just exacerbating the growling?

Will definitely have a talk with both hubby and kids about this.

Rue

 

[jcottonl02]

Hmm that is interesting. To be honest, I've never though of using the same method for dogs, as rabbits, but I guess it's about the dominance issue isn't it. If Gus believes he is the dominant bunny in the house, he'll be growly, aggressive etc if he doesn't get his own way, but if you show him that you and your hubby are the top bunnies, but exerting the behaviour similar to what your partner showed, maybe this behaviour will subside?
I don't know.....

Wish I could be of more help tbh!

Jen

 

[elrohwen]

I absolutely think your husband's actions could have made his growling problem worse. In fact, using that on dogs typically makes growling problems worse as well - it's just not a safe or effective method in any way. This stuff isn't about dominance - your rabbit isn't trying to be dominant over your family, he's just trying to tell you, in the only way he knows how, that he would like to be left alone. The more your husband tries to dominate him the more likely it is that Gus will escalate his behavior to get his point across.

I will admit that holding a bunny's head down can sometimes be effective, but I think it's a last resort. I also think it works best on young/hormonal buns who don't know better. That isn't Gus' situation - he wasn't doing this behavior before, so I'm guessing there's a good reason he's doing it now.

I have noticed that my bun likes to be petted when he's in an enclosed space, so I don't think it's that unusual that he likes being petted in his cage. He's safe in there and you can't turn from petting to picking up very easily. When he's out in the open, it seems like he feels threatened. And based on what has happened so far, he feels threatened, so he growls, and then he's pinned down. If you were a rabbit, I'm pretty sure you would feel *more* threatened at that point, not less.

I'm a huge proponent of positive reinforcement training, but to do this you'll need to have a serious talk with your husband and kids. I don't think you should run away when he growls, because that can reinforce it as well, but I think you should just sit next to him quietly and try to turn the experience into a positive one for him and for you, rather than pinning him down in an effort to show dominance. If he growls and you stick around, but don't harrass him or threaten him in any way, he will learn that 1) growling doesn't make you leave and 2) no one is going to hurt or annoy him either.

Good luck. I really think that you seem to have a good handle on what you need to do, but, honestly, I think your family is setting Gus back :-(

 

[jcottonl02]

To be honest, there are many methods, and many theories that we could think up, but ultimately noone knows why Gus is acting this way, and what will help him to stop.

So you need to try things out, and see which ones works. To be honest, I don't see how ignoring his bad behaviour will reinforce it, like was mentioned before. I think ignoring him when he growls etc. will show him you aren't afraid etc., and you aren't threatening him. But maybe sitting down next to him might work? But then again this could be rewarding bad behaviour?

Ulimately you need to try and see what works for you guys. This is quite a confusing situation.

Good luck

Jen

 

[elrohwen]

I'm just giving my opinion based on a fair amount of research into positive reinfocement training methods for dogs and horses, as well as bunny knowledge. Of course there are lots of other methods, but positive reinforcement has a lot of research behind it. Of course, in the end, whatever works is the best method and that can vary from animal to animal.

Also, it seems clear that when dominance training is used on Gus, he responds negatively to it, so that alone makes me think that it's not going to be effective for him. There's a lot of research to show that dominance methods actually create more aggressive behavior in the long run. It may be effective with other buns, but it sounds like it just makes him angry and more likely to growl in the future.

I agree with JCotton that ignoring the growls is one of the easiest things to try. You don't want to move away, because that is reinforcing, but I don't think you want to punish either. Just stay next to him, act calm, and see if he changes his attitude towards you. At least he'll learn that you're not moving, so if he wants to be away from you he's better off moving his own butt than trying to get you to move. And if he does change his attitude and becomes friendlier, I would reward that with a treat or toy or something.

eta: Funnybunny, I think you've been a great owner for Gus so far and I'm sure that you'll figure out this new problem of his! Like I said, I really think you have a good handle on what he needs right now. I'm just worried that someone else in your family will tick him off to the point where he feels that he needs to bite to make his point, and that would be a very bad habit to get into! Especially with kids around.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Thanks, guys.

I appreciate that you guys think I'm doing a good job with Gus. I'm trying! But definitely it's a learning curve!

I also really appreciate all the input. I was feeling torn betweentwo courses of action: asserting our dominanceeven more or completely leaving him alone. My instincts were saying the latter, but at the same time I was worried leaving him be would just reinforce his growly, stand-offish behaviour.

But I think we need to find a balance somewhere in the middle: Give him his space, but at the same time don't let him push us around with his growling. But above all, work on building that trust back up.

Believe it or not, I actually tried somethingalong these linesyesterdaywhenGus growled and nudged me when I tried to pet him: I just kept petting his head gently and telling him he was a nice bunny and he eventually settled into a muffin and put his head down for me to groom him.

I've also noticed he doesn't like his back being touched when he's out of his cage. (Now I realize he probably thinks he's going to get picked up!)

Anyway, so I talked to the kids (who I should probably mention are 9 and 12). They now know they aren't to pick Gus up and if they want to pet him, they can only pet his head and ears. I'm going to have to be diligent with reminders, but I think they understand how important it is now.

I haven't brought up the subject with hubby yet...

Rue

 

[elrohwen]

Funnybunny, the gentle petting sounds like a great idea. I know there are aggressive buns in the rescue and often given them head pets settles them down. It's not threatening, but it's not backing off either. They learn to accept the contact rather than wasting their energy scaring people off.

And avoiding pets on the back is good too. He probably is worried that he's going to get snatched up. I also find laying on the ground while petting helps. I think they understand that you can't pick them up while you're flat on your stomach. My bun gets anxious if I pet him too much while sitting up (expecting me to pick him up I guess) but is a total mush when I lay down.

I think you have great instincts for this stuff, honestly. Keep it up!

 

[funnybunnymummy]

I'll try laying down next time I pet him. See if he reacts differently.

Thanks!!!

Rue

 

[Pipp]

I think so much depends on HOW they're being picked up. Once I learned to properly pick up a rabbit, they started settling down around here. They feel very secure being picked up because they can't really struggle and they know they won't be dropped.

Rabbits are individuals, though. I got Darry and Dill at the same time and when they first arrived, Darry was shy but I could pick her up without too much difficulty, but Dill would get mad as heck and try and take out my shoulder or arm. He also did this 'exploding bunny' thing. He's be still as anything and then there'd be this explosion of a million legs, nails and teeth.

But within a year, Dill was fine being picked up -- as long as it was secure. And I think only if I was the picker-upper. Darry continued to be hand shy, and although I could pick her up and she wouldn't struggle, she'd avoid me a lot more afterwards.

But then again maybe it was because I was always picking up Dill -- he was so awesome -- and Darry... not so much on both counts!

Mine have gotten better with age and handling, but I never started the pick-ups until I totally had their trust. Any rabbit that gets grabbed when they get close to a human ain't gonna want to get close to a human!

Oh, and there's definitely a danger re: doing the treat tempting bit too much. They will look at you like a candy dispenser. They'll be disappointed with a mere pet. So up the pets and lower the treats.

But you do have to handle rabbits, they hide illnesses so well, its really the only way to keep giving them regular health checks.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[Pipp]

elrohwen wrote:

Funnybunny, the gentle petting sounds like a great idea. I know there are aggressive buns in the rescue and often given them head pets settles them down. It's not threatening, but it's not backing off either. They learn to accept the contact rather than wasting their energy scaring people off.

And avoiding pets on the back is good too. He probably is worried that he's going to get snatched up. I also find laying on the ground while petting helps. I think they understand that you can't pick them up while you're flat on your stomach. My bun gets anxious if I pet him too much while sitting up (expecting me to pick him up I guess) but is a total mush when I lay down.

I think you have great instincts for this stuff, honestly. Keep it up!

Oh silly me, I didn't mention the most important stuff! This is a great post, right on. And yes, lying on the ground is definitely the best way to establish trust.

To gain their trust in the first place, I would be sitting or lying on the floor, and when the bunnies came up to me (which they always did, even the shyest of the shy), I'd pick them up and put them on my lap and pet them, but I wouldn't hold them there, or at least I'd let them go at the first sign of a struggle.

They'd start off by immediate hopping away, but after awhile when they realized they weren't being confined, they'd stick around.

Sorry, I mention that in so many posts, I definitely should have here!


sas :bunnydance:

 

[tonyshuman]

I am not a rabbit whisperer, but I do always keep a few things in mind about rabbit psychology. Rabbits are naturally independent and assertive to survive in the world. They aren't part of a large pack like dogs that cooperates to get food. In fact, the more rabbits there are in an area, unless there's lots of food there, the worse chance each of them has because that area will likely attract predators. They have to be in charge and whenever they are "dominated" it is like being a victim of a predator because that's the only time in the wild that they don't get their way. They don't compromise with other rabbits. The only time I show them I'm boss is when I'm cutting nails or when they try to boss me around by causing pain (nipping, boxing). The way I do that is not let them get what they want. If they run away while I'm cutting nails, I go get them again. But, I only do this very rarely and only when necessary. That seems to make them able to tolerate it.

 

[jcottonl02]

There is whole speculation on whether physical correction with dogs is the right way to go (I personally don't believe in it or use it, but many people do), but clearly from the Dog Whisperer, physical dominance/correction issues don't need to be used.
I find it fascinating to watch that show. These people have unbelievabe trouble with their dogs, then Caesar walks in, and with his subtle techniques, can calm even the most aggressive of dogs, with barely a touch to it's body with one finger!

It just goes to show.

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Thanks, sas!

I totally agree that rabbits need to beable to be handled (for vet trips, to administer meds, etc.), somy goal is still to work towards being able to handle Gus. We had been making progress, but now I thinkthe run-ins with hubby have caused a bit ofa setback and now we need to go back to square one. But I'm willing to keep working at it!

"Exploding bunny": Yes, that pretty much sums up how Gus is about being held. He'll either start scrabblingthe moment you go to grab him, or he'll let you pick him up for 15-20 seconds or so, then suddenly the kicking and scratching starts! :shock:

"Treat dispenser": Yes, that too. I've already decreed that treats are to be cut back significantly (due tothe never-ending moulting! ) and, believe it or not, the kids and hubby have been really good about it. Will see if that has an effect on his behaviour.

I'll tryyour laptechnique. But not till we've gotten some trust built up again.

Thanks!!!

Rue

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Thanks, Claire and Jen.

Like I said, I didn't agree with his idea to "dominate" Gus and I nowbelieve that's caused this setback. I'll talk to him about it and hopefully he'll want to try things my way.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: when I pick Gus up, I put one hand under his chest and one hand under his bum and then hold him against my chest with his hind legs tucked under my arm.

Is this the correct way to hold a rabbit?

Thanks!!!

Rue

 

[jcottonl02]

Sort of like a baby?
Benji I can hold any which way (obviously safe and supportive) because he realy doesn't mind, but Pippin I have to place one hand under his chest (like you do with Gus, i think), and one under his bottom, scoop him up like a baby and hold him very tightly to me. I also hold his front paws in my fingers, and hope that he slightly trances for the time I need to carry him, as he's on his back.
He seems to trance for about 20 seconds, before he'll 'wake up' and start trying to kick and scrabble relentlessly, so I basically know I have 20 seconds to do what I need to do hahah!!

But yeah that sounds right to me.