French Angora, Flemish Giant Mix or Dutch??

[Wooly Hopper]

So here’s the dilemma…
My dear friend raises French Angoras for their fur. Every 3 months she comes over with an entire truck load of them … well it seems that way but usually it’s about 10 buns, and we have a harvesting party. We let them loose in my living room and one by one they each get clipped to collect the wool. I love it, so much and each one is adorably sweet. Sometimes they’ll even try to knock one another off my lap to get groomed next!

She knows someday I’d love to have a house bunny again. I had one years and years ago. A mini rex that loved to lounge on the back of the couch and nuzzle against whoever sits down near him. He passed away a long time ago. She said that at the moment, she has space for all her buns, but..if there comes a time where she needs to place a buck or two because of lack of room, she would like to have them placed with me. She’d take the wool when it was time for sheering of course but the buns would be mine. I like that they are big bunnies and my big dog seems to love laying in the living room when the others come over for their grooming.

But….

I have another friend who has a litter of Flemish giant/Hotot mixed babies.. and is having a hard time placing the boys. She’s asking me to take one because she only has one small hutch and the family is getting squished inside the tiny space. They’ve never been inside, let alone on a harness or allowed to bounce around on the grass, let alone had people interaction other than tossing food into their hutch…

And then…
The HS has this sweet little Dutch boy. Already neutered and everything. He’s so adorable! When I would pet him on the nose, he’s close his eyes and fall right to sleep. Loves being held, too! But.. he’s so small. Can a tiny min bunny actually roam freely in a house? I know Mr. Bun Bun did but.. at the time my house was very small. I now live in a huge 120yr old Victorian.

I really want a French Angora! But, I feel horrible for the Flemish/Hotot babies and that Dutch is unforgettably adorable!
What would you do in this situation?

 

[melbaby80]

I'd go for the flemish/hotot babies due to their situation. They seem to be more of a need to rescue. Weird combination by the way! Flemish are pretty hardy so if size is a concern then I'd truly go for the flemish/hotot.

The dutch is at a humane society and if he's as sweet as you say then he should do alright finding a great home.

Angora's are tons of work, but you already know this. I had an english angora, and everything stuck to her fur, poop, pee, hay, bedding, everything. It had become to much for me so I rehomed with a great family who was into spinning.

My vote is the flemish/hotot.

 

[ZRabbits]

lol, I know I'm going to get heck for this BUT! Can't help being truthful.

Though you would be helping the Mixed Flemish, you would be dealing with a non-social bunny. A big non-social bunny. That's something to think about. Really think about. Especially with your dog. These babies have never lived inside.

Dutch will find a home if he's sweet. Smaller bunnies usually do. And the Dutch breed is a nice bunny to have.

I'd go with the Angora. You know the breed, worked with it, and your dog gets along with that breed. They are very docile because of the wool gathering.

Go for what you want.

K

 

[melbaby80]

Take into account how young the flemish mix are and the others. A young rabbit can be trained, its not something that can not be fixed especially if they are young. Their situation is horrible which is what got me to choose them in the first place.

I agree with karen on the dutch. Its like I said if he is as sweet as you say he'd find a home no problem.

Angora's "CAN" be docile. My angora hated being groomed, but she was sweet aside from that. And it is true you know the breed.

Still I can't help but think of the little ones in an unfortunate situation.

 

[MyBabyHasPaws]

I agree about the Flemish babies. Their situation would push me to rescue one. I know they arent friendly right now, but i'm sure you could work on that since they are young. Good luck!!!!

 

[ZRabbits]

As all your hearts on in the right place, and saving these flemmies from this position, is a good thought, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. What happens if it doesn't work out? What happens ifthis person's dog and the bunny don't get along? Get rid of the dog? Send the bunny to a rescue? Or just be miserable with a bunny you just can't get close to?

I've read thread after thread, of people having problems with even babies that are skittish. That never come around if they are not socialized properly at birth. This is going to be a big bunny.

Just something to think about.

K

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

It is a tough choice.
Personally, I would go with the angora. 1 I love the fluffies and have another angora so I know about the wool care. 2, they are pretty awesome rabbits and quite friendly. It sounds like you know these rabbits and are familiar with them so you know what they are like. Since you would probably get an adult, you do know what the personality would be like and your friend shoudl be up front about any issues (like spraying).

The flemish mixes will end up being large rabbits. They have not really been socialized, so that can be an issue. However, they are the ones is most need to being rescued. Due to the breeding, they would be at a higher risk of people wanting them for meat.

The dwarf at the humane society is probably at a low risk. Unless they euthanize for space on a regular basis, rabbits are usually safe. Since he is so friendly, he should get adopted quick. Many people like the small rabbits and being neutered means he won't be used for breeding.

What you could try is taking one of the flemish mixes and seeing how that goes. You could even take a couple of the same sex and work to find them a home. It would help out your friend, but you won't be stuck with one if you find they aren't right for you. It sounds like it could be a while before you might get an angora, so this can let you have a rabbit for a while until that time comes and you can make a decision later. If you find that you like the flemish mix, but still want an angora, it could still work out with some careful planing.

 

[Paddy Ohara]

As long as you have the space go for the flemish. I did get mine young but I had to redo a lot of training and socilaization after spaying and neutering them. It sounds like they are still young so you should be able to work with them. They really do not show their true personities until they are older and comfortable around people. I am a firm beleiver that a good environment will bring the positive results as will proper socialization. When I decided to keep the girl, I did so because she came right up to me and my dog and her brother was more nervous watching me from the back of the crate.They are both great animals. I haven't had any problems with my dog or any of my neighbors dogs. She is bigger than than all of myneighbors dogs which may help.

I have had minilop, dutch, mini rex, and dwarf hotot as well. They are all great but I am now a flemish addict.

 

[ZRabbits]

Korr_and_Sophie wrote:

It is a tough choice.
Personally, I would go with the angora. 1 I love the fluffies and have another angora so I know about the wool care. 2, they are pretty awesome rabbits and quite friendly. It sounds like you know these rabbits and are familiar with them so you know what they are like. Since you would probably get an adult, you do know what the personality would be like and your friend shoudl be up front about any issues (like spraying).

The flemish mixes will end up being large rabbits. They have not really been socialized, so that can be an issue. However, they are the ones is most need to being rescued. Due to the breeding, they would be at a higher risk of people wanting them for meat.

The dwarf at the humane society is probably at a low risk. Unless they euthanize for space on a regular basis, rabbits are usually safe. Since he is so friendly, he should get adopted quick. Many people like the small rabbits and being neutered means he won't be used for breeding.

What you could try is taking one of the flemish mixes and seeing how that goes. You could even take a couple of the same sex and work to find them a home. It would help out your friend, but you won't be stuck with one if you find they aren't right for you. It sounds like it could be a while before you might get an angora, so this can let you have a rabbit for a while until that time comes and you can make a decision later. If you find that you like the flemish mix, but still want an angora, it could still work out with some careful planing.

Devils' Advocate again. Understand your idea of trying to save the Flemmie/Mixes from become Meat.

But how would she not be stuck with them if it doesn't work out? Yes, helping a friend in need, good point. Helping keep big, unsocialized bunnies, good point.

But if it does not work out forthis person helping, what happens? She takes these rabbits in, basically fostering them, and then has problems socializing these big bunnies, can't find homes for big bunnies, then what? Rescue or sell for meat? And then when the opportunity comes around for her to have her Angora, which she works with her friendwith wool gathering,careful planning is needed. Would you bring another bunny in with a rabbit that has issues? Especially a big rabbit.

Just things to think about.



K

 

[LindseyG]

Of course being the angora person i say go for the angora, that would probably be the best option out of your 3 choices.

melbaby80 wrote:

I'd go for the flemish/hotot babies due to their situation. They seem to be more of a need to rescue. Weird combination by the way! Flemish are pretty hardy so if size is a concern then I'd truly go for the flemish/hotot.

The dutch is at a humane society and if he's as sweet as you say then he should do alright finding a great home.

Angora's are tons of work, but you already know this. I had an english angora, and everything stuck to her fur, poop, pee, hay, bedding, everything. It had become to much for me so I rehomed with a great family who was into spinning.

My vote is the flemish/hotot.

You should never ever expose an angora to bedding of any type. As well as always keep the hay contained in a hay rack. I rarely get mats ans never get stuff stuck in the hair of my angoras.

 

[Nelsons_Mom]

Karen,

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I would bet a good amount of money that that super adorable dutch came from a pet store...and where do pet store bunnies come from? MILLS. There's NO socialization there. Most of it probably came down to his individual personality and whatever home he had before, and how much the people at the shelter worked with him.

Both of the breeds in that mix had a reputation to being friendly. They're young. ANY rabbit that you would get, unless it was like 6 weeks old and wanting to bond with anything would take a while to build trust with.

Besides, if everyone thought like that there would be a lot of MISERABLE rabbits in the world.

I vote for the Flemish Mix because

1. Having a heavy wool producer as an indoor bun is REALLY HARD. Hair is perpetually everywhere and removing a chain of poops is a nearly daily occurrence. That's why I have my girls shaved at the vet (which they have to be put under for) 2X a year and brush daily.

2. As everyone said, the dutch will have no problem finding a home.

3. All of my rabbits have come to me under socialized. And, while they each have a different degree of what sort of contact they want from me, there is NO better feeling in the world than when a rabbit you've been sitting with and talking to for two weeks comes up and asks for your attention. It's a bond you work harder for, but in the end it is so beyond worth it it will send you into tears.

 

[LindseyG]

Also these are french angora, they do not have fuzzy undersides, thr wool is only on their back. My english on the otherhand do need to have their privates trimmed. The only time they get poop stuck though is when they get diarrhea.

 

[Wooly Hopper]

Every one of you have given me so much more to think about. My gratitude for your insight is boundless! I can’t thank you enough.

So this is what I’ve gathered on this choice so far..

1. The Dutch should be fine at the HS. I was there and they only had three bunnies. All of the sweet, neutered and spayed. So, I’m going to believe that they will be fine along with the Dutch boy. Plus, they are on line and get lots of exposure to the public on their own availability. I can even spread the word among my friends. He’s also just too small. Though my dog is slow moving, gentle and sweet, he is also very large at 150lbs. He’s a Great Pyrenees and a big poof-ball himself. I know he wouldn’t intend to hurt the bunny but..small vs large can equal a really bad ‘squish’ factor if he can’t see the bunny and makes a wrong step. It’s part of why I want a rather good size bunny. The French Angora, though not a giant, seems to be the right size for him to be fully aware of and actually very happy. He thinks they’re tiny sheep to be guarded and protected. Heheh
2. The Flemish Giant/Hotot babies—I admit they are at high risk. I live in a rural town. I live inside the City Limits but more then 3/4th of the community is farm land split between Ranchers and Farmers. Just about everything is eatable here. For example, I’ve seen one of my friends pull over the side of the highway, pluck a huge snapping turtle out from the bushes (how she saw him, I’ll never know) by the tail and toss him in the back of the truck.. only to serve him up after 4 weeks of soaking him in a clean water tub so he didn’t taste like “mud”. But… I’m not that experienced with taming a bunny down. I just don’t know how that could be done. I’ve never met an aggressive or skittish bunny. I’m not looking for an ‘easy’ way… I’m just not so sure of what skills are involved.
3. Now for the French Angora. Yes, it will be a long while before one comes my way. He will be an adult but it could also save him from being meat, too. My friend does run a farm.. and though she’s never butchered any of her Angoras, she does raise meat rabbits to help feed her family. I know it sounds ugly and I’m pretty sure it won’t ever come to that for her, but… nothing is ever for certain and out here, most everything gets eaten. Especially in this struggling economy (my town is 40% below the national poverty level.)

 

[ZRabbits]

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

Karen,

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I would bet a good amount of money that that super adorable dutch came from a pet store...and where do pet store bunnies come from? MILLS. There's NO socialization there. Most of it probably came down to his individual personality and whatever home he had before, and how much the people at the shelter worked with him.

Both of the breeds in that mix had a reputation to being friendly. They're young. ANY rabbit that you would get, unless it was like 6 weeks old and wanting to bond with anything would take a while to build trust with.

Besides, if everyone thought like that there would be a lot of MISERABLE rabbits in the world.

I vote for the Flemish Mix because

1. Having a heavy wool producer as an indoor bun is REALLY HARD. Hair is perpetually everywhere and removing a chain of poops is a nearly daily occurrence. That's why I have my girls shaved at the vet (which they have to be put under for) 2X a year and brush daily.

2. As everyone said, the dutch will have no problem finding a home.

3. All of my rabbits have come to me under socialized. And, while they each have a different degree of what sort of contact they want from me, there is NO better feeling in the world than when a rabbit you've been sitting with and talking to for two weeks comes up and asks for your attention. It's a bond you work harder for, but in the end it is so beyond worth it it will send you into tears.

As I know many breeders, responsible that is, and know Pet Stores that do work with rescues and responsible breeders, I have to respectfully disagree that all Pet stores carry Mill bunnies.

Yes some Pet Stores do use mills, but some are very reputable and sell good, socialized bunnies.

And two weeks, you are already bonded with under socialized bunny? Just with your voice? You must be doing this for years.

K

 

[fuzz16]

I agree with z, dont get one bc you pity it. Get it bc you will enjoy it. The fibers from the angora would be useful if you spin, and you would be very proud of the things you make from their fur.

I found my boy and his sister on the side of a road ina wire kennel with a dead sibling. No food water or hay. Its been a monthish..pidge will nudge me and jump all over me and lie down on my back or arm. He just wont lemme pet him unless he wants it. Lol. When i first brought them home they didnt move for hooours and i couldnt touch them fr a week.if your pateint, its a lot easier to gain their trust when their naive and young than older rabbits stuck in their ways.
I cant imagine the flemish mixes will get over 8ishlbs so not huge but they are sweeter than other breeds.

You need to decide what you want in a rabbit. Temperments change after puberty too.

 

[LindseyG]

Honestly go with what you like! Getting a rabbit is your choice and you are stuck with whichever rabbit you choose. You should choose one you want.

 

[Wooly Hopper]

LindseyG wrote:

Honestly go with what you like! Getting a rabbit is your choice and you are stuck with whichever rabbit you choose. You should choose one you want.

The more I think about it, the more I realize you're right. It's a 7 to 12 year comitment.

I'm going to wait for the French Angora. It will be months and months but what's a few months compared to 12 years? He will be worth the wait.

Plus, it'll be nice to keep my home open for one of the extra bucks when my friend will need the placement the most.


Thank you, everyone! You have been incredable help.

 

[Nelsons_Mom]

Wooly Hopper, I am SO glad you made the choice that is right for you. A rabbit is such a big commitment and it is best to know what is comfortable for you. I'm looking forward to seeing you around and your future little fuzzball c:



I am very sorry that I am hijacking a little, but I debated a long time over whether I wanted to respond to something that Karen said and decided that I would just continue to let it fester and make me feel anxious all day if I didn't.

ZRabbits wrote:

As I know many breeders, responsible that is, and know Pet Stores that do work with rescues and responsible breeders, I have to respectfully disagree that all Pet stores carry Mill bunnies.

Yes some Pet Stores do use mills, but some are very reputable and sell good, socialized bunnies.

And two weeks, you are already bonded with under socialized bunny?  Just with your voice?     You must be doing this for years.  

K

Karen,

I want to start this out by saying that I deeply respect you. You have such a mission in your breeding, and you show such care and compassion towards your rabbits and all the ones that you see in photos on here. I wish that I didn't disagree with you on this, but I do.

I know that a lot of PetSmarts (and a few other national chains) work with cat rescue networks around the nation and donate space to them within the store so that they can get adopted, which is an amazingly generous thing and saves a lot of cats lives. But, the animals purchased through a large chain store (with the exceptions of the animals that are sometimes brought in as surrenders to the rare stores who will allow them) are from mills.

Most mom and pop type stores will have rabbits from small BYBs, who, for all I know, take great care of their animals (but having been to a pet store and seen the babies that I have PERSONALLY SEEN that might not reflect the conditions in other areas, I tend to doubt it.)

I am sorry if I insult your friends because I respect them because I respect you, but I don't think it is at all a responsible breeding practice to supply to pet stores.

There no choice of who ends up with those babies, there is no way of contacting those adopters, and therefore have no way of knowing the progress of the lines without keeping a majority of the litter. What if there's a hereditary defect? The breeder would have no way of contacting the adopters to have their animals tested or warning. Or, worse, what if the breeder doesn't know because the adopter is unable to contact them? And that line is continued, sending a lot of potentially sick rabbits into the world when the line should have been discontinued?

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I know what I have said here will not change a lot of people's minds. But, to me, breeders have a HUGE responsibility to their breed and not following up with adopters is a break in the trust that someone should have with a breeder.

And also, my under socialized (under socialized =/= feral) rabbit example was an example of progress, not me transforming a cowering rabbit into a snuggly baby in a matter of days like your response made it seem. To be honest, I found it hurtful that my experience that I hold very dear to me was undermined like that.

 

[ZRabbits]

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

Wooly Hopper, I am SO glad you made the choice that is right for you. A rabbit is such a big commitment and it is best to know what is comfortable for you. I'm looking forward to seeing you around and your future little fuzzball c:



I am very sorry that I am hijacking a little, but I debated a long time over whether I wanted to respond to something that Karen said and decided that I would just continue to let it fester and make me feel anxious all day if I didn't.

ZRabbits wrote:

As I know many breeders, responsible that is, and know Pet Stores that do work with rescues and responsible breeders, I have to respectfully disagree that all Pet stores carry Mill bunnies.

Yes some Pet Stores do use mills, but some are very reputable and sell good, socialized bunnies.

And two weeks, you are already bonded with under socialized bunny? Just with your voice? You must be doing this for years.

K

Karen,

I want to start this out by saying that I deeply respect you. You have such a mission in your breeding, and you show such care and compassion towards your rabbits and all the ones that you see in photos on here. I wish that I didn't disagree with you on this, but I do.

I know that a lot of PetSmarts (and a few other national chains) work with cat rescue networks around the nation and donate space to them within the store so that they can get adopted, which is an amazingly generous thing and saves a lot of cats lives. But, the animals purchased through a large chain store (with the exceptions of the animals that are sometimes brought in as surrenders to the rare stores who will allow them) are from mills.

Most mom and pop type stores will have rabbits from small BYBs, who, for all I know, take great care of their animals (but having been to a pet store and seen the babies that I have PERSONALLY SEEN that might not reflect the conditions in other areas, I tend to doubt it.)

I am sorry if I insult your friends because I respect them because I respect you, but I don't think it is at all a responsible breeding practice to supply to pet stores.

There no choice of who ends up with those babies, there is no way of contacting those adopters, and therefore have no way of knowing the progress of the lines without keeping a majority of the litter. What if there's a hereditary defect? The breeder would have no way of contacting the adopters to have their animals tested or warning. Or, worse, what if the breeder doesn't know because the adopter is unable to contact them? And that line is continued, sending a lot of potentially sick rabbits into the world when the line should have been discontinued?

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I know what I have said here will not change a lot of people's minds. But, to me, breeders have a HUGE responsibility to their breed and not following up with adopters is a break in the trust that someone should have with a breeder.

And also, my under socialized (under socialized =/= feral) rabbit example was an example of progress, not me transforming a cowering rabbit into a snuggly baby in a matter of days like your response made it seem. To be honest, I found it hurtful that my experience that I hold very dear to me was undermined like that.

Wooly Hopper,

Truly glad to hear you made a choice. Glad that you look at a bunny, not just more for a companion, but you are utilizing it for what it was bred for, wool. Just like some breeds are utilized for meat. So glad you came on to show that a rabbit can benefit others in many ways. And your love of that breed of bunny. My Lion Heads, though have wool, doesn't put out what an Angora does. Mine are more "fancy". Just like other dwarf breeds. They are utilized more in shows and as pets.

Hoping you'll let us know about your angoras. Would love to see pictures. Very much a fan and admirer of all who do collect wool. Amazing what can be made by it.


Nelson_Mom,

I would like to take this time to let you know that your image of me, that you say you respect, is wrong and will take this time to let you know my true reasoning of why I decided to get rabbits. Though I plan to breed, and I do in fact know Pet Store Owners, and have in fact rescued a bunny from being a snack for a snake (Yes, truly know that snakes got to eat), I don't fit into that box you put me as a breeder or that I may eventually sell to a Pet Store.

I'm well aware that Pet Stores do not devulge all the information that you stated would be best for the owner. I doubt breeders buy their breeding or show stock from Pet Stores, but hey maybe some do. But there are laws on the books, especially in New Jersey, that must be adhered too to sell any small animal. And regarding PetSmart, my hats off to them, they open their doors to rescue groups, to bring their bunnies to the store, to have people ask questions and talk about adoptions. The reason I know this is that I looked into a Rescue group and that's what they want out of their Foster Parents. Time to come out and show your bunnies.

This is the Rescue Group that I applied for an application and got information on to become a Foster Parent. As I'm still learning myself about all breeds and ways of bunnies, I feel in the future, this could be an avenue that I would like to eventually travel.

http://www.forbunnysakerabbitrescue.org/

3. All of my rabbits have come to me under socialized. And, while they each have a different degree of what sort of contact they want from me, there is NO better feeling in the world than when a rabbit you've been sitting with and talking to for two weeks comes up and asks for your attention. It's a bond you work harder for, but in the end it is so beyond worth it it will send you into tears.

Hurt feelings? I felt you were being irresponsible, as someone with lots of background already on socializing under socialized rabbits, to tell a person that this experience will happen in two weeks. As someone who just started, it took me weeks to get my two to come to me. And they were socialized. These are not dogs or cats. Though domesticated, they are still wild animals. Prey animals, that show different ways of socializing than dogs and cats. Though you wanted to steer this person to saving those flemmie mixes that had no socialization whatsoever, which I understand, you made it sound that any novice can do it. And that would be hurtful to the bunny as well as the novice owner. Because it is an awesome experience.

I walked into rabbits to help sooth my pain from the loss of my Son. I found out how awesome rabbits can be and all the different functions a rabbit has, show, pet, wool, meat. But on this forum I found other ways a bunny can fulfill their lives and the lives of their owners. Through agility and therapy.

IMHO, the best way a rabbit can be happy is if the person getting that bunny, for whatever reason, knows what a rabbit is all about. Maybe that will stop a lot of people giving up on them, breeding irresponsibly, or getting rabbits, because they want to help, and ending feeling guilty because they need to return that rabbit.

Wow, I think I found my new mission in life. Being a true advocate for the Rabbit.

There is good and bad in all, but if you have the knowledge, you can bet your bottom dollar 99% of the time you will have a good experience, (life throws that sad 1%) whichever way you get the bunny that steals your heart.


K

 

[melbaby80]

LindseyG wrote:

Of course being the angora person i say go for the angora, that would probably be the best option out of your 3 choices.

melbaby80 wrote:

I'd go for the flemish/hotot babies due to their situation. They seem to be more of a need to rescue. Weird combination by the way! Flemish are pretty hardy so if size is a concern then I'd truly go for the flemish/hotot.

The dutch is at a humane society and if he's as sweet as you say then he should do alright finding a great home.

Angora's are tons of work, but you already know this. I had an english angora, and everything stuck to her fur, poop, pee, hay, bedding, everything. It had become to much for me so I rehomed with a great family who was into spinning.

My vote is the flemish/hotot.

You should never ever expose an angora to bedding of any type. As well as always keep the hay contained in a hay rack. I rarely get mats ans never get stuff stuck in the hair of my angoras.

Bedding as in newspaper. I never use the other junk out there. And hay lol they pulled it out of their hay rack, there was no stopping it