Chalk has head tilt :(

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So glad to hear that she is feeling better and eating on her own.

mr_mouse_chalk wrote:
Am I expecting too much to hope to see some improvement in her head tilt so soon? I know it can take weeks, and sometimes doesn't get better... but what are people on here's experiences?
I'm sure experiences vary quite a bit, based on many factors. With Ronnie, it was incredibly difficult to tell if his head was getting less tilted because it happened so gradually. He's still a bit crooked today, but when I look back on pictures from his illness I can see an improvement.

When we got into this, I imagined that Ronnie's head would straighten itself out and that's how we'd know he was better. Not the case. In fact, determining his condition was a matter of trial and error. We were instructed to take him off the meds and "see what happens." By this time, we were a few months into treatment and his rolling had stopped completely. The true sign that Ronnie was better came many weeks after we halted treatment: he started humping again ;)

Best of luck with Chalk, I hope her improvements come swiftly. Keep us posted.
 
She's still taking antibiotics, right? Is it Baytril? You should see some improvement within 3-4 days with any given antibiotic--otherwise it is best to try a different antibiotic, as the bacteria are probably resistant to the drug if no improvement is seen within 3-4 days. I'm a bit confused because you said the head x-ray showed no sign of ear infection. What is she taking now?
 
I wanted to add:

Look for rolling and mobility improvements. When Ronnie was on Pen G, his rolling episodes were practically non-existent and he ran around very well (albeit in a circular pattern). Every 7th day, Ronnie was taken off Pen G for 3 days, and we could tell a big difference. By the third day he'd be stumbling around and rolling a lot. We actually had to put him on a combo of Baytril and Pen G to bridge the gap on his off days.
 
mr_mouse_chalk wrote:
Am I expecting too much to hope to see some improvement in her head tilt so soon? I know it can take weeks, and sometimes doesn't get better... but what are people on here's experiences?

Pebbles hadseveral head tilts during her life. It could easily be caused by stress in some cases. She had all sorts of medications (Baytril, choropalm, ..., and some made up after a culture test).

In all cases sheshowed improvement just over 24 hours of taking her medicine. But it would be at lease 14 dayswith medication before she had fully recovered.

Lucky for me I would catch the head tilt early and get her to the doctor as soon aspossible and that Pebbles loves to take her medicine.
 
Thanks for all the advice everyone :)
Good to hear the different experience of recovery times.

She's home now, the car journey unsettled her a bit but she's doing well. She's eaten a reasonable amount, had a drink and done all her toilet business. Not in the litter tray - but I'll forgive her given the circumstances.

I took down the upper two stories of her and mouses cage earlier - they have a two grid high one pen with lid now. The floor is covered in soft pet beds made safe in case she stumbles.

So far so good - she's a lot brighter than she was on Tuesday and her head tilt seems noticeably better at least to me. She's not stumbled and she's doing pretty good at eating / getting around and cleaning herself.

Here's a pic :)

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She is on quite a lot of meds still - spread out over 4 times of day she's on:

Zantac 0.27ml twice a day
Domperidone 0.5ml three times a day
Baytril 0.34ml once daily
Stemetil 0.3ml three times per day
Panacur Liquid 1.3ml once daily
Metacam 0.45ml twice daily

All her blood tests came back clear for normal organ functions and no sign of infections.

The E-Cuniculi test will be back early next week as apparently takes a few more days.

So far so good, but I have to give her more meds in 2 hours - I feel bad doing it as it seems to unsettle her so much, but I know she needs them...
 
Meant to say - Jen also sends thanks for all the support on this thread.

She is still in hospital, but keeping an eye on the forum from her iphone. But she can't post from it for some reason.
 
Certainly a very interesting and very scary combination of drugs. I have never understood why vets use an antacid in rabbits that have guts that require an acidic environment. And I never use GI motility drugs. Sounds almost like a "treat for everything" type deal. And as far as the EC titer, it should come back positive since it only tests for antibodies in the blood. But as I have mentioned so many times....EC doesn't cause head tilt....it causes a compromised immune system that allows infections that do cause head tilt.

Randy
 
She's doing even better today :)
She's been resting up all day, eating quite well and being much more cheeky like she normally is (ate a hole in a t-shirt of mine while I was giving her meds this morning).

She's been rattling the cage all evening since I got back from seeing Jen, so I opened the door, and have been supervising her ever since.

She's doing an equal amount of running around and lying down. But she seems to be good on her feet today.

Little video of her nibbling a takeaway menu she managed to knock out of the bin, and running in and out of our coffee table:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub8S0cVsaL4[/ame]


Little Bay Poo wrote:
Chalk actually looks very good.  Her tilt is hardly noticeable in the picture.
 
Hi Randy,

It's difficult really as everyone in rabbit medicine (at least here in the UK) seems to have different opinions on which drugs to use. We are a bit limited with rabbit experts, but Elisabeth who has been treating Chalk has been very good so far.

I've read two different views on the antacids - some say that the normally acidic environment in a bunny can be dangerous to a bunny when food is not passing through, but I also see your point that trying to neutralise the natural acidity could be a bad move... I just wish I was enough of an expert to know which is for the best.

From our point of view Chalk has had a history of pretty severe gut stasis - she's been treated in different ways by different vets, but Zantac and the GI Mobility drugs do seem to have helped her out of it in the past...

Steve

ra7751 wrote:
Certainly a very interesting and very scary combination of drugs.  I have never understood why vets use an antacid in rabbits that have guts that require an acidic environment.  And I never use GI motility drugs.  Sounds almost like a "treat for everything" type deal.  And as far as the EC titer, it should come back positive since it only tests for antibodies in the blood.  But as I have mentioned so many times....EC doesn't cause head tilt....it causes a compromised immune system that allows infections that do cause head tilt.

Randy
 
Yea....rabbit medicine is starting to come into the modern world but we still have a lot of the older info still out there. Truth is the use of an antacid came from a time that it was known the gut of a rabbit was very acidic and the antacid was used in an effort to protect the oral drugs from the acidity. What wasn't known was why this caused GI issues like stasis....which is where the very dangerous practice of using motility drugs came from. What slows the gut is that the change in pH in the gut stresses the beneficial bacteria and that causes GI issues. Interesting that many vets will use an antacid and then use probiotics at the same time....and probiotics will acidify the GI....they basically wash each other out.

During GI events....and the changing pH.....gastric ulcers can form in the intestinal tract. These lesions will further thing an already very thin GI wall. The contractions induced by motility drugs can perforate these ulcers resulting in an almost immediate death.

As vets do more continuing education programs run by experienced exotic focus vets, they will learn these old ideas were based on incomplete clinical information. We now use many injectable drugs that just a few years ago were considered unsafe for rabbits. The injectables have minimal, if any, negative effects on the GI. We have much safer and effective methods to stimulate the GI...and not use motility drugs. We are using pain meds that were never considered for rabbits (and in my case with wildlife).....but they are safe and effective. And as far as vets, I have the utmost respect for vets....and most do a very good job treating rabbits and other exotics considering the lack of training they receive specifically on these animals while they are in school. But things are getting better.

Randy
 
Hi all,

Now I'm finally home I can post an update on Chalky myself!

She's so different to when I last saw her. I guess I can see it more because I've been away from her. When we took her to Great Western Referrals last Saturday, she could barely stand, kept falling, rolling, couldn't clean herself even and her eyes were constantly flickering. Her head was also very noticeably tilted.

Now, her head is still slightly tilted- if it was a clock face, I'd say 11.30? I think I said 1, 2 o'clock last time but I must have been working on some kind of backwards clock, because the tilt has always been to her right. At times it actually seems completely upright. It does get worse at times, like when she has to have her meds, she gets stressed being wrapped up in the towel, and it seems to tilt 'back an hour' or so, but recovers quite quickly after any stress. Forgive me using the clock references but it's the easiest way to describe the severity of the tilt? She hops, runs really well, not particularly fast, but she is definitely enjoying being able to move around, though she doesn't seem to overdo it- just a little run, a little explore, then a rest, and so on. I haven't seen her fall or stumble once since I came home yesterday evening and she is even getting in and out of the litter tray with no trouble at all. Steve turned their 3-level cage into a pen so she doesn't have to negotiate any jumps, but there is a cardboard box about 7inches tall in the living room for them to play with and hide under, and she has jumped on top of this several times with ease, that I've seen.

She's still ont he same medication, due for review with the vet tomorrow I believe (it feels so weird having all of this taken care of by Steve as I'm usually the one to administer meds, etc). The meds issue is... a headache. It is so frustrating to have a vet tell you one thing and yet everything else you read tell you another. One thing I am glad of though, is that we took Chalk out of the other vets, and transferred her there. A lot of the vets that we regularly see, are very good, caring and had it been any of them on duty that weekend, we perhaps might not have wanted to do it. But the vet that was on duty, I couldn't put my finger on it until after we left, but he just didn't seem to care. Not only about what we were saying, and showing him, but about Chalk. Her condition had clearly deteriorated from even the night before when we'd seen her, but he just shrugged and said that she looked ok. I honestly believe that if we hadn't taken her out of there, she would have deteriorated further, if not, worse *shudders*.


As for me, well they discovered through MRI that I didn't have any more gallstones hiding, nor a bile leak which was feared, but *just* pancreatitis. I couldn't eat for about a week, aside from trying cereal with milk which made me incredibly ill. I've been discharged with not much info other than avoid all fats completely, but nobody's told me how long for. Currently I can only eat plain steamed or boiled veg, plain salad, or plain rice/pasta. Not even fat-free milk- a glass of that the other day started me off. I've lost over 6kg since I went in! I wanted to lose weight but not like this. I ate a piece of steamed fish for dinner last night but it had a tiny fat content and I was incredibly ill for hours and nearly ended up back in the emergency dept. Hopefully it will all clear up soon...:(


Thanks for all the support for Chalk and myself :)
 
Bit slack on the updates - sadly Jen is still not well and back in Hospital, so it's been a bit hectic.

In good news though... Chalk is doing so well.
The head tilt is almost gone / barely noticeable now. She's running around, binkying and being a right wriggler when I have to give her any medicines.

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread - don't know what I would have done without the support.

Here's a little pic from tonight:

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Just read through this thread; so glad she's better now!:biggrin:Having owned rats for longer than rabbits, my first thought when reading this was, 'Oh no, tumor!' I've lost too many rats to head tumors, so I'm glad it isn't, and that she's better. Do you know what exactly caused the tilt?



Just on a side note, out of curiosity, in my experince, Baytril should not be injected as it can(and often does) cause nasty burns. I presume that would be the same for rabbits? I'm just curious here; I like to learn as much as I can about medicines.:)
 
So glad bunny is getting better!!!

Sorry about the struggle with your wife, i hope things get sorted for her soon xxxx
 

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