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Flashy

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Ok, before I start, let me say these things

1, I love this area of the forum. It's normally the first I visit, and I have directed a good few people to RO BECAUSE of how good your breeding forum is.

2, Anyone who knows me knows that I have bred, and also probably knows I have made mistakes due to lack of knowledge, which is one of the reasons why I so firmly promote a forum such as this, with people with such excellent knowledge on.

3, I have absolutely nothing against resonsible breeding and breeders. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for them when they do it so very well, people like Polly, Cathy, Jenson (naming those, because I know them best), but I have also seen other breeders on here say something and have great respect for what they say and their knowledge.

Ok? We got that straight? Good :biggrin2:

I'm wondering, if there is a point, on here, where it may become the case that breeding should be discouraged. Note, not breeding in general, but a specific situation. An example being if you knew the welfare of some bunnies would be at risk if a person did decide to go ahead and breed. Now, don't get me wrong, I believe in education, education and education some more, and if the people listen to it, they can become great, but what happens when a person refuses to listen time and time again, putting their buns at risk time and time again?

I'm also wondering whether, because of the anti breeder mentality that some people on this forum talk about, there should be a breeder specific forum (sub-forum?), where the mods decide which members are allowed in? That would mean that there would be no discrimmination against breeding, and no judgemental views on whether breeding is right or wrong. It might go against the forums open ethos, but maybe it might help those who breed/want to breed, but won't post (for whatever reason), to post.

People are encouraged to really think and question their reasons/motifs/ability about rehoming a bun, or taking on another bun, so I'm also sort of wondering whether it's ok to get people to question themselves if they want to breed? There seem to be some cases where it is not ok, yet some cases where it is. Could someone please clarify for me?

I guess what I'm getting at is that I really like this forum, and I wouldn't want to see it go under or become a hostile place, or even prevent people from posting when they want/need to, and I'm trying to find a way to clarify in my mind, what is and isn't acceptable. I have read that other thread, but I'm trying to get it more straight in my own mind.
 
Ya I agree with you, I think sometimes people should be told if they are doing something wrong, that endangers the welfare of the rabbits, and I don't see that as being against breeding.
 
I didn't state an opinion, lol, (other than the potential use of a private board), I was very carefully avoiding my opinion and trying to work out what the mods and other responsible breeders see as acceptable and not acceptable on here.

I'd also like to say that i'm not trying to cause problems, AT ALL, I just want clarity, that's all. And I obviously made a suggestion too.
 
I actually like that idea, of a private forum, but also new members who come on with a breeding qustion might get confused as to where they are meant to post (if the breeding one is hidden).

I don't really agree with really young people who don't have their own source of income, breeding - or those with very unsupportive parents. But if someone is an adult, can afford to take care of the buns, and learns what's right and wrong, then I don't think it's anyone elses business what they do with their animals.

If I decided I wanted to become a registered breeder with the rabbit council of NZ, and people here had an issue with it, I just wouldn't come here any longer. While I think this is the BEST animal forum I have ever come across, it is only a website, one of billions, and if the people here weren't suuportive then I would go find another one where they were.
 
Flashy wrote:
I didn't state an opinion, lol, (other than the potential use of a private board), I was very carefully avoiding my opinion and trying to work out what the mods and other responsible breeders see as acceptable and not acceptable on here.

I'd also like to say that i'm not trying to cause problems, AT ALL, I just want clarity, that's all. And I obviously made a suggestion too.
Click to expand...
I ment I agree about having another forum for serious, decent breeders. The other thing was just my own opinion :)
 
Personally, I don't think there needs to be a private forum. Separation is very rarely a good thing, right? There are already GREAT forums out there for only breeders (*cough*RH*cough*). Making it private may only discourage the people who need the most guidance.
 
I agree with you.

I'm not anti-breeding, but to not say anything when most people feel bunnies are being put in a bad situation just to stay "polite" is almost pointless.

This forum is about the welfare of bunnies, not the need to pretend to support iresponsible breeding.



Education, education, and education some more should occur before any breeding.



I don't believe their needs to be a separation because it is in a separate part of the forum. Like, I said before, I am NOT anti-breeding. But I hate seeing it done irresponsibly.

I'm assuming I'll be yelled at for this. lol
 
On a personal note...

I was soooo happy to find RO because when I found out Oaks could be pregnant tonz of people jumped right in to help me out. It was nice as a newbe to be able to find the breeding forum and post in it.

I would have never bred Oaks but because someone else was irresponsible I need the help from those of you who do breed. However, I do agree that breeding just to have babies around or just because you don't want to seperate your rabbits is irresponsible. And I feel that people should be told this in a kind and gentle way so they will take a second look at why they are breeding. I have noticed that some threads get a bit snippy when it comes to breeding. I was nervous at first to post about Oaks being possibly pregnant because I didn't want to be "in trouble". But you were all very understanding and I thank you all so much for that.

I guess what I am trying to say is a private forum wouldn't give people like me the help they need. But people DO need to be told if they are making a poor choice. Let's just break the news gently at first :)
 
Personally, I think the worst thing about this section of the forum is the people who come to ask for advice and don't listen, as you say, putting the welfare of rabbits at risk. We can tell people what we think and suggest that they don't breed, but we all know there will be those that completely ignore all the good advice and do it anyway. I wish we didn't have to see that happen here, but I think it always will and if we can't prevent bad breedings at least we can be here to help as much as possible. I can't think of anything we can do to stop this from happening without pushing people away from asking for help in future (which I think already happens).

I would love it if more people would question themselves before breeding. Maybe we could have a pinned thread in the rabbitry, something along the lines of "Are you ready to breed?" with the questions that people need to ask themselves before going ahead?

As for the anti breeder views, we have a topic pinned at the top of the forum asking people:

"If you are not a breeder, you don't support breeding and you have nothing of note to contribute to a thread beyond expressing an opinion on breeding, PLEASE don't post."

...now if only more people would read that first!:rollseyes

I don't think it would be a viable option to have a private breeding forum, I don't know how we would fairly decide who could and couldn't view it and I'm sure that would cause problems. I also do like the fact that everyone can come and view the breeding threads, it's nice that non breeders can come here and learn too.

Those are basically the rabbitry's two biggest problems there, which unfortunatly go hand in hand. Without the irresponsible breeders, we wouldn't have as much of a problem with hostile posts. People just get so frustrated with seeing the same thing happen over and over where people go against advice and breed carelessly.

Some great points raised there Tracy, I hope we can all come up with some ideas to make the rabbitry better and help educate people more. :)

Does anyone else have any suggestions for how to make the rabbity a better place?
 
Jenson wrote:
I would love it if more people would question themselves before breeding. Maybe we could have a pinned thread in the rabbitry, something along the lines of "Are you ready to breed?" with the questions that people need to ask themselves before going ahead?
Click to expand...
I like this idea.
 
I'm with Toast. I don't know what I would do without easy access to the breeding forum here. I've relied on the experienced breeders to help me raise babies born at the shelter and to raise an orphan baby. I'm sure as a mod I'd have no problem getting into a restricted forum when I need to, but what about my husband who is not a mod? Not to mention people like Toast and others who have accidental litters or adopted rabbits that may be pregnant, or are like me and may foster litters for shelters/rescues from time to time. This is actually one of the reasons I like to send people here, because us rescue types that are used to spayed buns can get help from people that actually know how to raise babies properly.

As for certain situations where people really shouldn't be breeding for the health of the rabbit, I try to be honest and lay it out straight. And then ask someone who knows more than me to make sure I'm not saying something wrong. I do discourage irresponsible breeding too, namely breeding for the sake of breeding without concern for type/temperament/health and no good plan for where the babies will go. That's where a lot of my shelter rabbits come from, not from show breeders with quality purebred animals that are usually bought by other show people.
 
Tracy,

This is an excellent post and you bring up some interesting things. I'm really torn on how to answer this - do I try to be tactful like a mod should be - or do I say what I really WANT to say but can't. :nerves1

Years ago I loved being a moderator for the rabbitry area - we had some good discussions on breeding and I learned a lot. I really grew as a breeder and I can't put my finger on exactly how or why I grew so much - but I did.

Now - sometimes I read the posts in this area and I want to go like this...continually...
:banghead. Many times I have to walk away from the monitor and not post immediately because I get so darn frustrated.

So in many ways - I would really like to see us have a private subforum for breeding. However - my reasons for wanting this is that there are a number of people who have never had a litter who feel like they should pipe in on threads here in this forum - because they know person X or person Y and therefore they feel like they have a say in things. I'd like to have a private forum to keep those people out.

HOWEVER - there are also some very knowledgeable people on here who have never bred or had a litter (on purpose) - that I would hate to have us lose out on. For instance - I think it is NZMiniLops that has done a lot of reading on genetics and is fascinated by the colors, etc. I love to read her posts sometimes. I would hate to miss out on her posts. There are others who didn't plan to have babies - like Naturestee who fostered kits and so she has knowledge that can help others. If we let only breeders in - she wouldn't be part of it.

Much of my frustration comes from the reactions we have to the posts. Let me see if I can be a bit more specific.

Some of our posts come after the deed is done. The post isn't, "Should I breed A?" but is instead, "I bred A and what do I expect..".

At this point - the decision is made - the deed is done - to harp about what a wrong thing it was to do is just pointless. Yet so often it seems like people want to chime in about how "you shouldn't have done that..".

Well great - how do you put spilled milk back into the milk bottle? You don't. The deed is done.

The second type of posts we see come from questions of "I'm thinking about breeding.." I'm certainly glad some of y'all weren't around when I first started thinking of breeding...fortunately - a couple of people here on the forum took me under their wings and answered my questions and I'll never forget the time Buck Jones stood up for me against a troll who was upset about my wanting to breed.

While I'm no longer breeding and I recognize that breeding isn't for me....it was a good experience (some of it) and it is something I'm glad I did.

I'm not always in favor of people breeding - in fact - a large percentage of the time I'm against it.

But I'm not here to change their behavior - I'm here to educate them so they can make an informed decision.

In other words - I try (and don't always succeed) to approach this forum without an agenda....I wish I could succeed at it.

I want to close this rambly post with a story and I hope it will help you to understand where I am coming from.

A while back we had someone on the forum who was giving up a rabbit I really REALLY loved. It was a color and breed that I loved and they were trading the rabbit for another one. It does not matter who it was - it was way back before most of you were here probably.

I was very frustrated - to the point that I was going to call the breeder that was taking in this rabbit to see if I could buy it from them so it wouldn't be bred and could have a pet home.

I was not the only one frustrated though - so were some of the other moderators.

Pipp stepped in and said something that cut me deeply - but it was so true and it was a lesson I needed to learn. She said something roughly along the lines of, "It is X's rabbit and we can't make X do anything we want with the rabbit. It is X's to give away, sell, breed, not breed, or do whatever. While we're here for the rabbits - we can't make X do anything."

That is the philosophy I bring with me now to moderating the rabbitry. Ultimately - the rabbit belongs to person X, Y, Z - whatever. I can't MAKE them do anything.

I can try to educate them. I can try to ask them questions. I can get myself really frustrated because I WANT them to do something.

But at the end of the day - it is their rabbit to do with as they think is best.

Do I support that decision? I will give them advice if they need it later on. I won't support what they did but I will try to help them deal with the consequences.

Anyway - I guess what I'm trying to say is - I do get frustrated with many who post and that does make me wish sometimes that we had a private forum. But I don't think it would help as many people as it does this way....
 
Ditto to everything Jenson said!

And if someone wants to write up something on what questions to ask yourself before breeding, that would be great!
 
'"If you are not a breeder, you don't support breeding and you have nothing of note to contribute to a thread beyond expressing an opinion on breeding, PLEASE don't post."'

Jenson, can I ask, where is the line drawn? Generally or specifically?

As in, I no longer breed (or rather, am not breeding currently), and may not support someones choice to breed, so therefore I should stay away from a thread?

I'm definitely not trying to be controversial, I just really need to know where these boundaries lie because otherwise I'm going to drive all you mods crazy by continuing to do the wrong things.

As for improvements in the Rabbitry, I mentioned this to Peg recently, but I said that people 'like me' may respond more because there have been less active responsible breeders around, and that if more well known responsible breeders were posting, maybe people 'like me' would not feel the need to post as much. At the time I acknowledged that I understand you all have your own lives and they are ALL very stressful and I don't for one second want people to push themselves, or do more than they feel they can or don't appreciate all you all do but I did sort of wonder outloud if there was a way to cultivate the breeders on the forum to post more, or to make them more comfortable or something. However, since I said that, breeders HAVE been posting more, and, from my point of view, I think that it has had a really positive affect on what's going on in the forum. I guess what I think I'm saying is that this forum maybe became more casual with my novices posting advice, but that the presence of more responsible breeders being active could (and already has), turned it in the right direction.

I know people don't like it when I express my opinions, but none of this is actually negative. I'm genuinely a, looking for clarity on some issues, and b, looking for ways for this forum to be what people want it to be, because currently people do seem unhappy here, or unhappy with things going on here.
 
Oh, and Jenson, thank you fr your reply, it's really appreciated :)
 
Peg, thanks for your long response :)

I can guess who that rabbit was because that had a profound affect on me too, and I completely get what you say about what Pipp said.

I guess my idea about a sub forum was not necessarily just for breeders, just those that the rabbitry mods (or mofds in general) decided were 'ok' (ack, for want of a better word) to let in.

I sort of viewed it as a sub forum, so that anyone could post in the main Rabbitry forum, but that 'hardcore', or 'sensitive' or 'dodgy' or anything that someone didn't want to post publicly, could go in there. I guess maybe those who had proved themselves, or who needed that access could be allowed in, even if it was reviewed regularly, or something.

I have also seen some topics raising sensitive issues such as meat rabbits and culling, that also could potentially go in there. Nothing gritty, but just maybe slightly more tolerant to those things?

I completely hear what you guys and others are saying, and, to be honest, I have been mulling this idea over for a while, and can completely see pros and cons to both options, it really was just throwing an idea out there because some people seem unhappy here right now.

That's all :)
 
Maybe there should be a forum for just serious breeders, who want to talk about breeding seriously between eachother and this forum too. I am not against breeding in anyway and I might get into breeding, when I am older and have my own space, there is no point now, since I will be moving out in three years. I do like to learn about breeding from the forum and my own research and have picked up the basics on how to breed and raise a litter, I wouldn't know anything fancy like genetics or showing. I try and only post with advice, and I only ever post solid advice that I know is accurate. Sometimes, I find it hard to stick to advice only when I see something extremely frustrating, and it's hard not to put in a personal opinion when you can see that a rabbit or the babies will suffer.
 
Flashy wrote:
Peg, thanks for your long response :)

I can guess who that rabbit was because that had a profound affect on me too, and I completely get what you say about what Pipp said.
Click to expand...
Thanks Tracy.

You mentioned about experienced breeders not posting as much - and I thought I would share why I don't post as much as I probably should/could.

As many would guess from my posts - I can be a very emotional person. Not only am I wired to be emotional - but I'm at a point in my life (mid-life aka "change of life") where there are sometimes days when my hormones will just rush through and I can become overcome by emotions. I might laugh for a bit and then wind up in tears bawling over something else.

I get very attached to the rabbits in the forum and when some of them have passed away (ie - Samantha, Raph, Herman, Sakura, Dill and so many others) - I grieve almost as bad as if they were mine.

When I find out a rabbit in the forum is expecting - I'm almost as bad as if it was my rabbit that was bred and is expecting. I anxiously count down the days to see how the rabbit is doing.

Because of my makeup like this - it is very easy for me to "burn-out" in the rabbitry area. I hear about people breeding rabbits that are too old for a first litter - or too young. Or they don't have a plan for the babies - or whatever...and it just stresses me out.

I have been known to walk away from the computer crying because someone had pencil kits ... or they had problems with a litter from a pet rabbit.

I still remember breeding GingerSpice - my first pet lionhead doe - just so I could have something from her. I shouldn't have done it - her immune system started breaking down shortly before she was due to wean the babies...and to this day - I believe I caused her early death. No one can convince me otherwise.

So when I read of someone wanting to breed a pet - I want to shout at the top of my lungs, "NO..Don't do that". But alas - either the deed is done....or the person won't listen.

So sometimes - I don't post - because I don't think the person will listen to reason - perhaps I've read other posts and I realize that they're looking only for certain answers.

I'm sorry - because in some ways I'm sure I've failed as a moderator to work in the rabbitry enough.

But that's why I sometimes pull away - because this area just brings me too much pain - partly from people who are determined to breed their rabbits - and partly from those who are just as determined to stop them.

I guess it is a good thing I'm going on vacation soon ...


 
I think there will always be irresponsible people breeding rabbits for all the wrong reasons. And we certainly need to point out those patterns for the sake of the rabbits. It is very frustrating when people seem to make the same mistakes, and we end up repeating ourselves, over and over again.

But we need to be here for them... for the sake of the rabbits. "Accidental" breedings will always happen. Poorly thought out breedings will always happen. Maybe with our advice and guidance, they will learn something. Maybe we will have a positive influence over how they care for and raise their rabbits. Maybe... or maybe not. But we have to try.

I don't think we need a private sub-forum. Everything that is discussed here is a benefit to the rabbit community. We do have to remember that the rabbits belong to people who may or may not have their well being at heart. But with gentle advice and proper guidance, people can be educated. And that will be the beginning of change.

We caneducate people that there are better ways to do things. We can discourage indiscriminate breedings. But we can not control everything. At least if we keep the lines of communication open, we may be able to influence people's decisions and the lives of their rabbits.


 
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