At what point do you stop trying to pick up an unruly bunny?

[Sophie's Humble Servant]

So I flipped Sophie on her back again last night and it went a lot better. She only bit the blanket once and she definitely didn't put up as much of a fight. I held her on her back for 20 seconds and I rubbed her face while I held her. Her breathing was still fast but not as bad as the first time. I turned her back over, no kicking this time and let her go. Gave her a couple of treats and this time she didn't run back into her condo. I know some of the advice was to take the process slowly but I'm going with my instincts on this one and handling it with a more tenacious approach. I feel that with my personality, if I "poo-poo" this too much, I will allow myself to second guess what I'm doing so I need to just git 'er done so to speak.

I really thank you all for the advice, I learned many new things! I will keep you all updated on my progress with Sophie

 

[Nancy McClelland]

:thumbup

 

[Imbrium]

I haven't gotten fully caught up on this thread yet, but will do so later tonight... I'll start by responding to lovelops, as she sent me a PM as well and I figured I would answer her here in case others had similar issues.

Jennifer

I wanted to add to this since I saw the pics of your Broken Holland Lop in your avatar who looks almost exactly like the one I just rescued who was about to be put down. Maybe this is the wrong place to post this but it ties into picking up also so here we go..

How long ago were they spayed? It can take up to a month for females' hormones to be totally gone. Also, unfortunately, some hormone-driven behaviors and aggression can become "learned" and remain even after the hormones are gone.

Even when hormones aren't to blame, some rabbits are big on using nips/bites to communicate. My Holland nipped me on the leg last night because she was tired of being in my lap but afraid to jump down (I was in my desk chair) herself. My lionhead once decided I'd been furminating her too long and when I set her down for a break, she circled around and nipped me right on the bootie!

For litter box digging, the only sure way to stop it is to put a grate of some sort over the box that prevents digging completely. http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53690&forum_id=93 has instructions about 1/3 of the way down the first page for building a grid - it's easy to do.

~~~~~

Nipping/biting:

As a general rule, I always tell people that you can NOT teach a rabbit through negative reinforcement or any sort of punishment - it just doesn't work. Biting is the exception to this rule.

Biting and nipping are communication techniques for bunnies. They don't bite or nip for no reason - they do it to tell you something. Some bunnies need to be taught when it's "socially inappropriate" (by bunny standards) to nip or bite someone. Human parents have tactics for disciplining a child prone to throwing tantrums... similarly, a mother rabbit will discipline her kits when she finds their behavior inappropriate.

Mother rabbits discipline their kits by pressing the kit's head to the ground and holding it there for a few seconds. Because this is a natural communication method for rabbits, they actually understand what you're trying to say if you do it to them.

You need to be firm yet gentle. Think of the amount of force a doe would apply by pressing down on a baby bunny's head with her chin - it's not much, and it's all that's needed.

I'll make a video for you guys tonight and include a demonstration of how to discipline a rabbit for biting

 

[JBun]

It sounds like you are already making progress with Sophie. She may be realizing you aren't a big scary monster trying to eat her, and there's even a nice treat that she gets when you are done. Keep up the good work and you'll be a pro at this in no time

 

[Sophie's Humble Servant]

Thank you for the encouragement

One thing I was wondering was how often should I be practicing? I flipped her two days in a row but I thought I'd give her a break(and me lol) this evening.

I don't want her to forget what I'm doing but I also don't want to put her under too much stress.

 

[namimommy]

I gave up. She'll kicking like hell when i try to hold her and shedding her fur like i can make a winter cloth with it. Once she's kicking and bleed herself at her mouth. I can do nothing nor i can clip her nails because i cannot hold her. I'm a sad mommy.

 

[Imbrium]

I think what really changed things with Mocha was when I learned to turn him towards me as I pick him up so that all four of his paws rested against my chest and stomach. Not only is he no longer able to kick because his hind feet are resting directly on my tummy with my hand under his bum to support him, I can either hug or stroke him with my free hand as well. I think that position feels a lot safer to him because while he might crane his neck and look down from side to side, he never struggles to jump out of my arms like his tail is on fire anymore. Does he still look and act scared? Well, yes... but I think he's just the sort of bunny who will never enjoy getting picked up even though he's learned to tolerate it.

Something I'd forgotten to mention but that occurred to me when I started filming the video (which I'm working on uploading right now) is that what works for picking up one bunny doesn't always work for another - some rabbits are pretty easy going about being picked up (mine, for example) while others tend to respond a good bit better to one particular technique. In other words, if you feel like you aren't making progress with one method, try another! I tried to show a couple options in the video, though I forgot about that one. I don't tend to do it myself, but my boyfriend routinely holds Nala the way you're describing and she always seems happy about it.

Sometimes, I notice that when Mocha is very agitated, he would start breathing heavily enough for me to hear it even without bringing my ear close. That's sort of the first/lesser warning sign. But sometimes he would also do a tooth grinding that sounds very different from his tooth purring-- it almost sounds like grinding glass shards? I've read that bunnies do that when they're really scared, and that's the point when I either give up or I set him down if I already have him in my arms. I'm not sure if you've experienced that before - or if you ever will - but with my own bun that's basically when I back off and let him be. I don't think it's worth it to scare him to that point just to get him used to being picked up, not to mention I think it's the length of time you keep at it (ie. doing it on a consistent basis even if you're just picking him up for a minute or two) rather than how extreme you go that is more important.

^ Agreed - you know your own bunny better than the rest of us do (and the same goes for everyone in this thread)... so trust your instincts and listen to your bunny's breathing/watch their body language and let the bunny tell you when "enough is enough."

What if I get bit? If by chance I'm actually able to not let her go out of instinct when she bites me, should I keep ahold of her? At this point she's really hating me if I'm getting bit but if I let her go I guess I would be teaching her that biting means you get let go?

I addressed this a little bit in my hastily-written post earlier and I touch on it again in the video... furthermore, you'll get to actually watch NON-DEMONSTRATION footage of my instinctive response to being bitten, as that naughty little Gazzles snuck in a pretty hard nip after her nail trim while the camera was still rolling! No rabbits were harmed in the filming of the video, but a human got a little bit abused

I know some of the advice was to take the process slowly but I'm going with my instincts on this one and handling it with a more tenacious approach. I feel that with my personality, if I "poo-poo" this too much, I will allow myself to second guess what I'm doing so I need to just git 'er done so to speak.

In all honesty, advice on this issue should only be considered a guideline anyway . Every rabbit is different, as is every owner - it's reasonably easy for us bystanders to spot when the pace you're going at doesn't seem to be working, yet pretty much impossible to tell you what the *right* pace is. That's something that you and your bunny need to work out for yourselves through trial and error!

This is directed at all newer bunny owners, not just you:
The leading authority on your own particular bunny (or bunnies) is you.

I realize this can be difficult to believe at times if you feel like you're in over your head... but you know your own bunny/bunnies better than any of us ever could. We're simply here to offer you our insights and help you learn to interpret your bunny's attempts to communicate based on contextual clues and what we've seen in our own bunns.

Chances are, all of you know your bunnies far better than you realize - the true obstacle is in becoming confident enough to trust your gut instincts!

If "experienced bunny owners" on the forums tell you one thing and your "mommy/daddy" instincts tell you otherwise, 9 times out of 10 it's going to be your instincts that have it right!

 

[Sophie's Humble Servant]

Thanks! Did you upload a video and I'm just not seeing it? Or I'm getting ahead of myself here lol

 

[Imbrium]

Yeah, the upload is being more than a little painful. I suppose I do think I remember seeing that the file size was 1 gig Just looked and it's nearly 17 minutes; I really wish I knew how to fully edit videos! I've still gotta go back through and watch it myself, so when I do, I'll make notes of where in the time-line I talk about or demonstrate certain things - that way I can give you guys a cheat sheet in case you want to skip around. I didn't plan what I wanted to say ahead of time because I'm more comfortable when I'm not trying to follow a script (and more importantly, because rabbits think scripts are for eating), so it's a bit stream-of-consciousness. There's also a good bit of naughtiness... Nala made an escape at one point and went around to the side of the bed, so I had to give chase and nab her like a little football, lol. Sadly, I suspect the actual nab happened off-camera.

 

[Sophie's Humble Servant]

Heh heh I can't wait to see it! Thanks in advance for doing this, I really appreciate your time!

 

[Imbrium]

Man, I was about ready to throw something through the monitor (well, not really ) when I saw "Your video exceeds the maximum video length for unverified accounts."... what a relief to read the next part about "To fix this, just verify your account, then activate this video in your Video Manager—you don't have to upload the video again." I would've been cranky as hell if I'd had to upload that all again (especially since it really slowed down my comp... and I can't leave the computer going overnight or it'll overheat and blue screen of death me the next day (it's an old gaming laptop; the nVidia card was top-of-the-line when I got it and it puts out an absurd amount of heat even with a laptop cooler despite really only being used for internet these days).

Anyway, I'm gonna see if I can review the video without disturbing Jay's nap (the laptop's actually set up as a desktop and has temperament issues that prevent me from making it mobile... also, the headphone/speaker jack is shot) - he's trying to sleep off a sinus headache .

On a side note, he's gonna get me a decent program that can edit videos at some point soon (if I don't forget to remind him, lol)

 

[Imbrium]

So... *facepalm*... I forgot/didn't realize as I was doing the video that the camera didn't show my upper body when I was standing, which makes it hard for anyone to see WTF is going on when I hold a rabbit "like so" ><

I had it positioned to cover the floor area because it couldn't get everything and for picking up purposes, what happens in those first 2-3 feet of raising them off the floor is the most important. This is what happens when you ghetto-rig a makeshift tripod to film in a small room so that you don't have to subject your boyfriend to 17 minutes of bunny-related ramblings (well, that, and once he started to get bored, he would probably have been even naughtier than the bunnies can be).

As a disclaimer, some parts of the video may be pretty disturbing or even sickening for those of you who struggle with an obstinate bunny. Hell, even *I'm* sickened by some of Nala's behavior! There were times in the early part of the video where she was like an obedient little marionette - you would SWEAR she's going out of her way to win an award for "most obedient demo bunny ever" (not even remotely close to what would've been helpful for you guys). I got her from a breeder at 7 weeks old (albeit with a lot of warnings about being extra careful with her because she was a bit young to be going to a new home) and the breeder obviously handled her kits a great deal from the start, as they were very accustomed to it by 7-8 weeks old. I've always held and handled my rabbits quite a bit and Nala in particular is very forgiving about it as long as she isn't chomping at the bit to run off and be naughty.

Anyway, back to reviewing the video so that I can get it posted!

 

[Imbrium]

First 30 seconds or so, I'm introducing the naughties.
At 30 seconds in, I start showing ways to pick up Nala.
2:18 - I've moved on to picking up Gaz and Nala makes a break for it!
3:05 - I go back to Nala for nail trims; you'll see me picking her up without supporting her hind legs at all. Not recommended for obvious reasons with many bunnies, but a few rare exceptions (like Nala) really don't mind. I wasn't thinking and just picked her up out of habit
3:40 - flipping Nala over
4:00 - Nala's nail trim; I also discuss how to deal with fur getting in the way and what to do with dark nails that you can't see the quick through.
At some point, I switch to Gazzle's nails (I forgot to note)
11 minutes in - how to deal with overgrown nails
12:55 - rabbit "discipline" (the trick of pressing their head down... Gazzles is ridiculously uncooperative about this when she knows **** well she hasn't been naughty)
16:10 - Gazzles bites me, gets disciplined for real and is much more accepting of it

I know it's a lot to watch - it's like 3-4 "how to" videos rolled into one, plus I tend to ramble and the rabbits like to create diversions from time to time ><

Hopefully it's at least a little helpful despite the overall lack of struggling. You do see them struggle a little bit during nail trims, and the only reason they don't struggle a LOT more is because I'm firm with them and confident in what I'm doing - when they start to get feisty, I put a stop to it immediately.

Despite a reputation for being "frail," you can hold a bunny quite firmly without hurting them at all as long as you've got them properly supported - the odds of them hurting themselves from not being controlled are actually much higher than the odds of you hurting them with a firm but supportive hold. You can minimize their movements without being forceful. In the video, you'll see that I definitely don't handle my bunnies like they're fragile! I would never, ever do anything that might hurt them, but a certain amount of firmness is just plain necessary to convince them to behave - if you're terrified of hurting them, the little naughties will absolutely take advantage!

Doesn't look from the preview like the video is embedding, though I've tried it multiple ways... crossing my fingers!

*grumble*... ok, time to argue with it a bit more...

 

[Imbrium]

Ok, apparently YouTube arbitrarily changed the video to "private" even though I specifically said I wanted it to be "unlisted" and that was causing it not to embed. Problem solved!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1qGcjM7syk[/ame]

 

[Sophie's Humble Servant]

Thank you so much! The video was great, especially how you flip them over! Lol I had to chuckle a bit when you're holding them and their front feets are sticking straight up in the air, pretty cute

Man alive I would love to be able to pick up Sophie from the ground like that!

I'm going to try your flip technique, hopefully soon! I see what you mean by it all happening in one motion and they wouldn't even have time to react.

 

[aozora]

Currently uploading mine! It's very very short, only about 2 minutes long (shorter still if you take away the time it took to chase him down and other little mishaps because Mocha does not like the camera and would not behave!)

I didn't demonstrate how I flip him on his back because that's one thing I'm still slowly working on-- he doesn't kick anymore when I pick him up, but oh boy flipping him on his back is another story! I'll make another post once it's uploaded

EDIT: BTW Jennifer, watched your video and I had to laugh at the way you manhandled Nala! That's pretty much how I handle Mocha too XD

 

[aozora]

Okay, I hope this works! Here is a quick video of how I tend to pick up Mocha for transport and so forth:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1i_863WiA[/ame]

Please excuse the lame set-up and my very wet hair (just took a shower!) and generally unhelpful explanation especially compared to Jennifer's! :baghead

 

[Imbrium]

Yeah, much easier to show than explain!... especially since I was trying to mentally picture it while explaining, rather than actually doing it (I noticed when doing the videos that I hadn't communicated the bit about one hand being on their chest and the other on their rump in my posts).

It's certainly not a miracle-fix, as Sophie will almost certainly try to throw a fit after the fact, but it can still help for a couple reasons:
1) While they tend to hate both, it seems like bunnies hate the process of being turned over even more than they hate being on their backs - the less time it takes you to flip them, the less time they have to get pissed off about it
2) The element of surprise = advantage, human! By ninja-flipping the bunny before they know what's going on, you throw them off their game which in turn, delays the fit they're going to throw when they realize what you've done. As a result, you get a split second to get them settled/positioned and brace yourself for that tantrum!

aozora, I'll have to watch your video with the sound on later, as I'm still trying not to wake Jay up (though the gliders behind me don't seem to have the same goal in mind ><)... I absolutely LOVED waching Mocha melt into a puddle of bunn while you pet him, though! Naturally, he thanked you with a good ol' chase scene, heh. Looked like a mini version of what Nala tends to put me through! I chose our bedroom mostly for lighting and camera distance reasons, but I also really appreciated having a mini-pen set up for Nala and the fact that she didn't have many options as far as where to go when she escaped. My video was long enough as it was - no one needed an extra 30 minutes of watching me make an *ss of myself trying to catch an elusive little lionhead, hehe.

Ok, just hit the 1:17ish mark and laughed by butt off as he abruptly flipped out of your arms and made his escape - SO NAUGHTY!!... and SO something my own bunns will do if they get the chance. They like to pretend they're on the same page as you, quiet and obedient, then explode with energy!

In retrospect, I'm really glad I watched with the sound off, it made it hilarious trying to picture your responses to that naughty, naughty behavior. I can't wait to watch with the sound on tomorrow and laugh all over again. It's much more amusing when it's not you being thwarted by the bunny - a fact I picked up on right away when Jay and Nala met and I got to watch her give him hell instead of doing it to me .

Does Mocha ever dig at you when you hold him like that? Nala *loves* to dig at Jay when he holds her that way... and sometimes if you instigate it by telling her how much you love that digging, how cute it is, how you wish she'd do it again, she'll start to dig extra.

 

[aozora]

Hahaha I tried to refrain from calling him the things I usually call him (mostly along the lines of "ooooh you brat!" in English and also Chinese) so I was actually behaving more than he was when you think about it! I wonder if it's a fellow lionhead thing, being naughty like that-- he's part definitely part lionhead because he grows quite an unruly mane that I trim because it tangles easily once it grows to a certain point from scratching/grooming, so it doesn't look very apparent in the video.

The first time he jumped out of my arms, it was more "augh of course the one time I'm filming this you decide to jump away instead of turn like you usually do!!", but the second time I think you can tell from my body language that I had pretty much given up by that point lol.

When you watch it with the sound, make note of the sounds from around 1:01ish--- that's him pointedly digging his little nails into the rug as I dragged him back to me because he did NOT want to be picked up! He totally is a naughty little bun and to be honest I kind of maybe sometimes pick him up in my arms on purpose just to "punish" him a little... *cough*

You know, he doesn't dig at me when I'm standing with him in my arms, but if I'm sitting he actually has done it a few times. He also sometimes tries to chew at my clothes so I have to keep pushing his head down and dissuade him, but usually he's more interested in peering all about and trying to find the perfect escape route!

 

[Imbrium]

Hehe, my hunch was right both times. The first time, it wasn't actually your body language that gave it away, but HIS. Something about the way he engineered that escape was so calculated and devious! Given that you were talking for the camera and presumably explaining what you were doing, I don't think it's a stretch at all to suspect the he knew something was up. You weren't talking to him, so presumably you would've been talking to other humans ABOUT him which = audience. Audience = time for naughtiness. It's honestly not much of a stretch to think that he really WAS doing it just because it was the one time you were filming - some bunnies really do seem to be *that* smart!

He totally is a naughty little bun and to be honest I kind of maybe sometimes pick him up in my arms on purpose just to "punish" him a little... *cough*

That absolutely never, EVER happens in our home under ANY circumstances... except for the 2-6 times a day pretty much every day when it happens with Nala. We outright *taunt* her about it. If she becomes too much effort and we give up on her for the moment, we leave her with a final warning of "you're gonna get "got" extra hard for this later!" We tease, threaten, call her names, tell her how naughty she is, you name it. She gives us the run-around. Sooner or later, she gets "got" (often, she's caught mid-air like a little football as she zooms past one of us). After being "got", she gets punished for her shenanigans with ear, cheek, nose, forehead and full-body rubs as she bunny-purrs her little heart out. At least once a day, we flip her over so we can get that cute little tum that she never wants to share . The whole thing is one big game - she seems to love the attention of being caught just as much as she loves running from us, which is why we're always doing it.