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murph72

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Location
Catawissa, Pennsylvania, USA
I recently tried my hand at breeding my Hollands. I have had a great deal of success with Lionheads and heard that Hollands can be a bit more difficult. This advice proved correct for me. I had one doe have a litter of five only to lose them 2 days later, presumably from the bitter cold snap we experienced. I had another doe who has had two back to back litters of only two babies that have died, also presumably from the cold. I have another doe whose first litter was one oversized kit that was breached and got stuck. After some assistance, it was born dead.

My dillemma: The doe who had the large stuck kit is due the day after Christmas. After so many failed litters, I'd like to increase the odds of success. I'd also like to keep a close eye on her since her first pregnancy went awry. Has anyone ever brought a doe in from the outdoors to increase the likelihood of survival of the kits? I was contemplating bringing her in on the night before she is due (Christmas night) and letting her give birth in the house and keep the babies in here until they were old enough to withstand the elements. Obviously, waiting until a warmup here in the Northeast would also play into that equation. Our weather in PA has been a real see saw lately and these shifts in temperature are hard to predict.

So, the first question is whether moving the doe that close to birth is a bad idea due to the stress? Or, is it a good idea for the babies to give them a shot of making it through the cold weather?

I'm pretty much stuck moving her on the 25th rather than sooner because my family all comes here for Christmas. If I move her in earlier she may get even more freaked out (even if she is hidden in a room we rarely use) by my neice and nephew who are screamers and whose mother has little control over them.

Any and all experiences/advice would be appreciated. I feel like I'm making a list of the pros and cons. I really want this to be a successful litter, but I feel like I'm gambling with each choice I make.

Dyan
 
Moving her so close to the end of her pregnancy would be very stressful for her, plus she would have developed a winter coat and the house could be too warm. But it might also be too cold for the babies, what many breeders do is take the nestbox of babies into their house once their born and bring them out twice a day for their momma to feed them, this method is good if you will be available to bring them out twice a day. So, if it was up to me I wouldn't bring her in.

Merry Christmas!
 
is she in a shed or barn or is she just outside? if she is in a barn or shed then can you put a heater in it for when her due date is? thats what we do with our nethies if it is cold. also if we need to we will put a heat mat in under the hutch to help keep the nest warm.

I wouldn't want to move her just now unless you really know her nature well and know how she would cope with it. Most does would not like the move this close to kindling

Unfortunately the small breeds are more of a challenge breeding wise.
 
She's in a hutch that is only partially closed in. So, putting a heater out there would be a kin to heating the outdoors I'm afraid.

With her last "litter" (I'm not sure you can call one oversized breached kit a litter), she kept removing the straw from her nesting box prior to the birth. I thought afterward she had the foresight to know that something was wrong. However, I gave her nesting materials today and she seems to be working on doing the same thing. This doubles my fear that she's either going to have the babies in an empty nest box or out on the wire. The likelihood that I'll be there in that exact moment is pretty slim based on based on past experiences.

What if I keep a room in my house cooler than the rest...say 55 or so?

I'm not sure how she'll take the move, but I'm feeling near positive the little ones aren't going to make it unassisted....especially with her nest box deconstructing she's presently doing.
 
I would probably take the chance then. I have had quite a few litters like the one you described and I do think they know before hand a lot of the time My husband has even seen our nethies having a litter in the nest and either tossing a dead one out or actually turning round and having it outside the nest!!

good luck keep us updated on how its going
 
Yeah. I don't know if she knows she's going to have an unproductive litter, or she's just a bad mother. I guess I'll know a bit more after her second attempt at mothering.

I'm just afraid she's going to have these poor little ones out on the wire at night and I won't find them until it's too late. Or, even if she has them in her newly emptied out nest box they'll be doomed. I'm thinking that at least in the house I can use one of my other bun's hair and make a decent nest and keep them warm enough.

I wish I could move her in sooner rather than later, but I'm afraid the kids on Christmas day will scare her. I'd keep her locked in a room upstairs, but I'm not sure how much of the noise she'd be able to hear from there....or if I could convince the kids not to scream.
 
Do you have a basement or a garage you could keep her in? I would also put her in a solid bottom cage or a small cage and put two nestboxes in so she doesn't have a choice but to have them in a box. I have a doe that alwaystries to pull the hay out of the nestbox and make the nest where she wants. I just put her in a small cage with two boxes and she has no choice. After she kindles I take one of the boxes out and move her into a larger cage. She is an excellent mother otherwise.

Good Luck

Roger
 
That's a good idea Roger! I have a doe that does exactly that-she'll pull all the hay out of the boxand have the babies on the hay. I'll remember this and try that next time.
 
My garage is detached from my house...so it's not too warm in there. It's also a large, tall building, so I think it would take a massive heater to heat it to a sufficient temperature to help the babies survive.

Unfortunately my basement is on the older part of my house that dates back to the 1800s. It is a dirt basement without any windows. I would hate to put her in there as it reminds me of a dungeon.

I will definitely try the two nest boxes idea. I'm just hoping when I go up there in the morning that she hasn't removed all her straw like the last time. It is horrendously cold here tonight. With the wind chill it is down in the single digits. I can't imagine a little one would survive very long at all in these conditions. It just makes me worry more about them.
 
If the basement is cooler than the house, it wouldn't hurt her to be down there for a few days, until the babies get fur. It may not be ideal, but it may be better than the babies freezing to death.

It probably won't bother her to be in a cool, dark place to kindle. Most of my moms kindle at night anyway. And they like it subduedand quiet for a few days after. If it's going to be that cold, I'd try the basement.

(It's supposed to be 17 degrees F tonight here in New York and almost 50 by Thursday! Weird weather! Rough on teh rabbits.)


 
The basement is a bit cooler, but it may also be a bit scarier. The furnace noise, as well as the water pump noise may be scary. On top of that, we don't have an interior door to access the basement. There are only large, heavy, noisy Bilco doors that exit to the outside.

This moring was WAY cold here in PA. I had a temp of 4, and that wasn't considering the horrific wind chill.

Good news is that she's actually making a nest this time rather than dumping all her straw out. :biggrin2: When I saw her in there digging and pushing straw around yesterday I figured it would be a repeat of last time where I added straw, she removed it, I added it again, she removed it, so on and so forth. Instead, this time she reorganized my straw and also added all the hay that I had given her to eat. That's at least a good sign that she has some motherly instincts. Yay! Go Chloe!
 
Yeah, it's up to 15 degrees F in my barn now... and the sun is up! Gonna be a cold day for sure. (And the 30 mph winds don't help either!) I'll keep my fingers crossed that she has this motherhood thing figured out and that it will warm up a bit before she kindles.
 
Back when I bred Hollands (in upstate NY), I would bring the nestboxes in at night when the kits were little. The does knew the routine and would anxiously await the box coming out to them so they could nurse.

I would prep my nestboxes with a sheet of cardboard on the bottom, shavings on that and then stuff the box with straw. The kits would stay warm during the day. Of course, the does always seem to have a preference for how they want the nursery set up.

I have had new moms leave babies on the wire...but by litter #2 they would get the hang of it. It was always sad for me to find kits on the wire.

I did not bring the does in as they were wearing full winter coats and I figured the temperature change from inside and out would cause them to blow their coats.

I did much better raising winter babies than I did with the summer babies...

Good luck for a nestbox filled with healthy kits (and no peanuts).

Denise
Silversong Farm
 
I'm thinking I'll turn down the heat in the house on Christmas night and bring Chloe in for her to have the littles ones. Then I'll do as was suggested and take them out twice a day to her to feed. This will hopefully help ensure that the little ones make it through the birth and until they are hardy enough to withstand the cold. Plus, Chloe won't have to be in long enough to start losing her winter coat. I'll keep you posted as to the results. Keep your fingers crossed. :)
 
murph72 wrote:
I'm thinking I'll turn down the heat in the house on Christmas night and bring Chloe in for her to have the littles ones. Then I'll do as was suggested and take them out twice a day to her to feed. This will hopefully help ensure that the little ones make it through the birth and until they are hardy enough to withstand the cold. Plus, Chloe won't have to be in long enough to start losing her winter coat. I'll keep you posted as to the results. Keep your fingers crossed. :)
Click to expand...

I think that's a good idea. I'm in PA too and I just rescued a litter of Silver Fox from the cold this morning. The mom had made a good nest but half the babies had collected in the area with the least bit of fur. When I found them I thought they were dead. Fortunatly they were just very chilled.

I'm keeping my nest boxes in the house now. It's too cold out there to chance anything.
Good luck with yours.
 
Unfortunately I have bad news on Christmas.

Chloe had her babies early last night. I did not find them until this morning. There was one that was stiff out on the wire. There were five that were strewn around the nestbox. All five of them were cold. I brought them in to warm them up, but they showed no signs of life. :(

Has anyone ever heard of a heated nestbox? I would like to find a way to have success with the Holland litters without jeopardizing the moms' winter coats.
 
clevername wrote:
I'm sorry to hear the bad news.:(

I've heard of people leaving heat lamps over their nestboxes before. I've never tried it myself.
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Ya my neighbour breeds netherland dwarves, she keeps them in her garage and has a heat lamp over them in the very cold winter.
 
I'm so sorry to hear she scattered them! UGH! What a shame!

I have metal heating pads that fit IN the nestboxes... I only use them if it's going to be below 20 degrees (F). But they work great. They are chew proof, dig proof and never really gets hot... just warm enough to enourage momma to have the babies in the box and to keep the kits for freezing. No chance of fire (like from a heat bulb).

I cut a hole in the back of the wooden box for the cord to go out, and place the nestbox so the wire goes right out the side of the cage. I put 3-4 inches of shavings over the heating pad and straw over that. I've had successful litters outside in temps as cold as -4. (Not that I bred deliberately for her to deliver on the coldest day of the year!)

I like that they are sealed and clean up easily. And I can put them in any nestbox that I need it in.

The only draw-back seems to be that some of the moms like to sit in the box to warm their feet! Means that I may have to clean out the nestbox more often...

 
So sorry to hear about that, Murphy. It's awful to loose kits, especially when you find them strewn everywhere :(

BlueGiants wrote:
The only draw-back seems to be that some of the moms like to sit in the box to warm their feet! Means that I may have to clean out the nestbox more often...
Click to expand...

Smart does, lol! I need a heating thing like that ;) I think I will have to find something.

Emily
 
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