When to start greens question

[Krissa]

I've noticed that every time adding greens to a young rabbit's diet is mentioned the consensus is to wait until around 4m old. I was wondering what the medical rational is for this - not trying to start any heated discussions if this a hot topic.

I have had 5 rabbits so far and every one I have given greens as a baby from the day I got them. I have always started them gradually on the greens. My rabbits eat a lot of fresh greens daily with no poop problems. My Californian eats 5 cups of greens, 1/4 c pellets and unlimited Timothy Hay. He weighs 8lbs.

For example: day one is 1 tiny stem of parsley. Day 2 is slightly more, every day I check poops. My current baby, a flemish, is 12w old and is eating 1c of greens a day now. I have never had any gastric problems from this method on any of my rabbits. I know they need bacteria to help digest the greens (humans do too) but going slowly allows the culture of bacteria to grow enough each time to handle to new food.

Until I got this new rabbit I did not realize that most people avoid greens until almost adolescence.

Another note: I have found that baby rabbits are much less picky about food. They will pretty much eat any green you put in front of them. While trying to introduce a new green to an older rabbit isn't met with much luck.

Example: I purchased Swiss Chard for the first time and give it to my baby Willow and two year old Zander. Willow at it up, Zander would not touch it. It also took me weeks to get Zander to eat dill, which now he loves, where Willow at it on the first try.

So I was just wondering why people wait to feed the greens and for those who start greens sooner - do your rabbits eat a wider variety of greens?

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

I wait beacuse with my bunnies, at least Ripley, he couldn't handle them at all till about a week ago almost 7 months old now). I tried giving teeny bits up till now every now and then, but every time I tried even with a tiny bit, it upset his tummy terrible.

 

[lagomorph]

Krissa, I think you have discovered what many of us also discovered -- that a lot of nutritional advice on rabbits is not based on science. Someone will see a sick rabbit and assume it's the diet -- oh, he's sick and he's eating parsley, so parsley must be bad for rabbits. Oh, the baby has diarrhea and is eating greens -- therefore greens must be bad for young rabbits...That kind of reasoning.

I like to think about how wild rabbits eat, and try to mimic that with my buns. In the wild, parent animals don't forbid certain foods until a particular age. Baby rabbits live amongst grasses, weeds, twigs, leaves, seeds, berries, etc., and begin to eat it whenever they want it, gradually incorporating new foods into their diet. So I see no reason to delay greens until a particular age.

I feed my rabbits a diet similar to yours: Pellets, several kinds of hay, a salad of mixed greens every morning, and twigs. They also forage for grasses, etc., in the backyard, when weather is good. No health problems. I don't recall exactly when I first offered them greens, but I did not wait until adolescence. I know that one of them was already getting greens from the breeder, when I got her at 2-3 mos. old, and she was fine.

 

[Krissa]

lagomorph wrote:

Krissa, I think you have discovered what many of us also discovered -- that a lot of nutritional advice on rabbits is not based on science.

I was wondering if this is the case. I am very scientific (BS in Microbiology and now getting a masters in nursing) and I like to see evidence behind data. Sometimes 'traditional practices' are good to do but they need to be challenged to find the best practice. - Ahhhh I've been in research class too long :biggrin:

With all of my animals I try to find the best food so I am always researching and looking for new data. I'll be watching this thread to see if what everyone else has to say.

 

[OneTwoThree]

While its true in the wild baby rabbits start off eating greens, they get the proper stomach enzymes from their mothers when they are in gestation. Domestic rabbits don't always have this benefit, mothers are often only fed pellets and hay and not varied greens and therefore the ability to digest without stomach issues isn't passed on.

I figure its 2 months to wait if you get your bunny as a baby, that's not that big of a deal. I can second guess every bit of advice I receive from a vet or otherwise, but certain things aren't worth it. I've read of enough rabbits who got mud-bum from having veggies too early both here and other forums that to *me*, its enough to just not introduce them until 12 weeks and to discourage new bun owners to do the same.

 

[Krissa]

According to this website http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.htmlrabbits are able to digest greens the same way that humans are able to - through enzymes produced by bacteria in the gut. The only way for any rabbit to be able to digest plant matter is for the beneficial bacteria in the gut to reproduce by feeding on greens. Since a baby rabbit's gut is sterile at birth they do not get the bacteria that makes the enzymes from their mother. They pick up the proper bacteria from the environment and are protected from harmful bacteria by the antibodies in the mother's milk.

If you follow this logic, it is important to introduce greens to baby rabbits before weaning so that the beneficial bacteria are able to replicate and the harmful ones are held in check by the mother's antibodies. By gradually introducing plant matter into the diet slowly the beneficial bacteria are able to reproduce and colonize the cecum. It is important that this colony is established early so that no harmful bacteria/fungi are able to take hold in the cecum.

My thought is if you introduce greens while the mother's antibodies are still helping the baby you are giving them a boost and encouraging a healthy bacteria colony in the cecum. This would occur in the wild naturally or in a situation where the mother is fed greens by the breeder. The babies would naturally begin to sample mom's food as weaning occurred and would still be under mom's system of passive immunity.

 

[OneTwoThree]

Krissa wrote:

According to this website http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.htmlrabbits are able to digest greens the same way that humans are able to - through enzymes produced by bacteria in the gut. The only way for any rabbit to be able to digest plant matter is for the beneficial bacteria in the gut to reproduce by feeding on greens. Since a baby rabbit's gut is sterile at birth they do not get the bacteria that makes the enzymes from their mother. They pick up the proper bacteria from the environment and are protected from harmful bacteria by the antibodies in the mother's milk.

If you follow this logic, it is important to introduce greens to baby rabbits before weaning so that the beneficial bacteria are able to replicate and the harmful ones are held in check by the mother's antibodies. By gradually introducing plant matter into the diet slowly the beneficial bacteria are able to reproduce and colonize the cecum. It is important that this colony is established early so that no harmful bacteria/fungi are able to take hold in the cecum.

My thought is if you introduce greens while the mother's antibodies are still helping the baby you are giving them a boost and encouraging a healthy bacteria colony in the cecum. This would occur in the wild naturally or in a situation where the mother is fed greens by the breeder. The babies would naturally begin to sample mom's food as weaning occurred and would still be under mom's system of passive immunity.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the issue is often moms don't get greens, so they don't get the passive immunity. Which is why many buns have issues with greens before they develop their own flora at around 4-6 months. Which again, is why its recommended to wait until 4 months in the case that the mother wasn't fed greens.

 

[Bonnie Lee]

I had this issue with one of my bunnies when I introduced greens to him when I first got him but with my other bun he could take in greens from the first day I had him.

I think what OneTwoThree is saying makes a whole lot of logic sense.

It's just a matter of asking the breeder what they're feeding them when you buy your bun to really know

 

[Krissa]

That was just an argument for the very young to get greens. It does not take 4-6 months for an animal to develop their own flora. From the moment of birth bacteria is making its way to the gut. In the situation where there is no longer passive immunity there still is flora in the gut. It is a mixture of 'good' and 'bad' bacteria.

Even if the mother is not fed greens, the infant is still receiving passive immunity towards every pathogen the mother's immune system recognizes. This passive immunity does not add the good bacteria, it only prevents bad bacteria from taking hold.

When you feed rabbits you feed these bacteria that have made their way into the gut. These bacteria thrive in the gut, it is the proper pH, temperature etc. Once you add the food the colonies take off. In the laboratory you only need around 48 hours for most bacteria to fill a petri dish - and that is an artificial environment. Now imagine bacteria in an environment they have evolved to inhabit. Bacteria always multiply to fill all available space as quickly as possible and a rabbit's cecum is not that large.

You still have the battle of the good and bad bacteria but that hopefully sorts itself out with the help of the body's immune system.

My point is, as long as you introduce the greens to a young rabbit slowly to allow the bacteria time to multiply to handle the load you will not see digestive issues.

Finally, if a young rabbit does not have their own flora until 4-6 months then all of my rabbits should have died right after I got them from too many greens. :biggrin:

BTW: please do not think I am arguing with you, I love discussions with points and counterpoints. You have made me think more about the inner-workings of the body and its interaction with bacteria.

 

[OneTwoThree]

I don't really have an argument to argue with you

Its been your experience that you can introduce early, I've only started to introduce mine at 4 months, so I can't dissuade you with personal experience. But if you do a search for runny poos or the like, very often the culprit is the change of diet and the introduction (even small) of a veggie. You can say that there could be many other factors, and that's true too, but in those situations removing or delaying veggies fixes the runny poop. It simply can't be a fluke when it happens so often, IMO.

I again also don't see the point in risking it, runny poos and possibly diarrhea which can be fatal, to give veggies 2 months earlier than recommended by vets and other sources. And I'm not going to test that theory on my own girls, I'd rather just wait. I wish I had some solid concrete sources to back up the 4 month theory but alas, I only have what I've read and researched