When *exactly* do you resort to giving sub-Q's?

[Jenk]

I'm looking for specifics on how you determine that your rabbit(s) require sub-Q fluids. For example:

1) How much water does your rabbit usually drink in a 24-hour period?

2) How much less water must he/she drink (and for how long) before you intervene with sub-Q's?

3) What specific symptoms lead you to administer sub-Q's?

4) If you wait to see if the symptoms resolve themselves before you resort to sub-Q's, how long do you wait?

I've relied on sub-Q's quite a bit for two of my rabbits, especially Zoe, whose megacolon symptoms--e.g., rock-hard fecals--worsened during the last six months' of her life.

With Emma, it's difficult to find the time to syringe her enough water throughout the day. When she feels well and her digestive system is humming along, she drinks 100-150 mL's of water in a 24-hour period. There's no way I can get that much into her during my waking hours. Plus, I get tired of syringing her so much and just wish that she'd start picking up the slack. And, thus, I often start sub-Q's when she's in stasis (as she is now) because it's too hard to syringe her the amount of water that she needs.


Jenk

 

[Maureen Las]

I never measured my rabbit's water intake , however, I do notice if their poops are hard or strung together with fur.
I actually have never given a sub q to any of my rabbits (although I I am doing them on my cat right now) and have managed to syringe them fluids intermittently if they are having any pre-stasis or stasis symptoms . I have NEVER neededto syringe even 50 cc on any rabbit. That would really be stressful for both the rabbit and the owner

I have added apple juice to the bowls of my rabbits who drink small amounts with excellent results. These rabbits will polish off an entire crock (probably 350 cc) in a night.

I believe that a rabbit needs about 50-150cc of water daily but you need to remember that these amounts are variable.

If the weather is cooler, if you are feeding veggies the actual water intake from bowl or bottle will be less

I really cannot answer your questions :shock:sorry
but I do feel that the goal is to get her pooping normally without you needing to do EXACT numbers

 

[pamnock]

Because hypervolemia can be just as dangerous as hypovolemia, I would consult a vet on the administration of subcut fluids.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

I have NEVER needed to syringe even 50 cc on any rabbit. That would really be stressful for both the rabbit and the owner.

The one blessing in all of this is that Emma, like her sister Zoe, takes nearly everything willingly from a syringe; I needn't restrain her to take it. (The only time I ever had to truly restrain her was during her previous stasis bout, when I absolutely had to force Critical Care down her.)

I have added apple juice to the bowls of my rabbits who drink small amounts with excellent results. These rabbits will polish off an entire crock (probably 350 cc) in a night.

About how much apple juice are you adding to the crock? (Yes, I realize I'm asking for an exact figure, more or less. Heh.) I'm just trying to gauge how much is "safe" in terms of avoiding a gut-flora imbalance. (Emma's water dishes hold 300 mL's exactly, so that's approximately the amount to which I'd be adding apple juice.)

I believe that a rabbit needs about 50-150cc of water daily but you need to remember that these amounts are variable.

I thought I'd read somewhere that most rabbits require at least 100 mL's of water daily, but I could be confusing that data with the accepted practice of giving 100 mL's of sub-Q's in a 24-hour period.

If the weather is cooler, if you are feeding veggies the actual water intake from bowl or bottle will be less.

In Emma's current situation, she's not consumed nearly a normal amount of water--at least 1/4 of her crock--in a long while now. Granted, I was giving her sub-Q's and syringed water up until a two days' ago. But I hoped she would've drank more water than she has by now (6:15 pm), considering she received no sub-Q's yesterday or today. I can't see the amount of greens she's getting--which is still small--would make up for what she's not consuming. But I'm trying to sit tight and see what she passes tonight while she's out for her exercise period.

I really cannot answer your questions :shock: sorry but I do feel that the goal is to get her pooping normally without you needing to do EXACT numbers.

I don't disagree one bit, though I'm rather stuck on the numbers these days. It doesn't help that I had to be so regimented with Zoe in terms of dealing with her megacolon condition. And even then, I clearly didn't have a great deal of control over it.


Jenk

 

[Jenk]

pamnock wrote:

Because hypervolemia can be just as dangerous as hypovolemia, I would consult a vet on the administration of subcut fluids.

A very good point.

Typically, I don't give sub-Q fluids without a vet's blessing to start/stop them. Admittedly, I have administered sub-Q's longer this time around than what the vet had recommended. (Pinkerton is the one exception. On three difference occasions, I've given him one dose of sub-Q's after a 12- or 24-hour gas bout, during which time he didn't drink any water. I did so without a vet's recommendation. And I can't really syringe him water because he would put up one heck of a fight.)

I'm still feeling rather panicky about Emma's small fecals. While they are moist, I know that the size she's mostly passing is reason for concern (with her). But I also know that she's not consuming nearly a normal amount of hay, either. Keeping that in mind, I'll attempt to sit tight and offer her Critical Care, if need be. I'm also giving her a slightly increased amount of greens. (I don't want to feed a ton more to her right now, when her system is already struggling.)


Jenk

 

[Maureen Las]

You are lucky that Emma drinks from a syringe; I had one rabbit ( RIP Beau) who drank flavored pedialyte from a syringe .
(Actually maybe you would want to try pedialyte )

To be honest I feel that 7 out of my 9 rabbits do not consume very much water at all. There poops are large and moist so I don't pay any attention to it.

One ofmy other rabbits ( Peewee) has a tendency towards gas and sometimes has drier poops.He gets about 25 cc apple juice in a 300cc crock and sometimes consumes 1/4 of the bowl , occasionally the whole thing.

My other rabbit ( Rudy )sometimes has chalky urine just bordering on sludge ; he drinks an entire crock of water and apple juice every night but will barely touch water if itdoesn't have juice.
I had trouble getting them to drink unsweetened or artificially sweetened juiceso they drink juice with sugar
I have never had any types of issues from the sugar content ..although I do not feed my rabbits any type of treats with sugar (no carrots , no fruit) but only greensand hay and a small amount of pellets
The amount of apple juice I have added is just the amount that I have decided to add; it is not basedon anything I have read. I [probably started out with a tiny amount in the beginning and added a little more when I knew they were not having any issues

 

[SnowyShiloh]

My bunnies all drink different amounts. Phoebe Mae drinks the most, about 3 cups a day. That girl is thirsty! Rory and Kerensa drink about 2 cups a day, Maximus and Mabel each drink about a cup and a half a day, and Nedders drinks about 3/4 cup a day. All are healthy, they just have different needs.

I've had to give sub q fluids to Rory and Skyler but no one else. I check the skin on the back of their necks to tell if they need fluids. If it tents when I pinch it, the bun bun gets fluids. Of course I don't just go around all the time checking if their skin tents, I do it if they aren't drinking much water. Thankfully I've never had to give fluids more than once per instance of ill bunny- for example, last time Rory had gut slow down, he needed it once but not any other time.

Know what's REALLY stressful? Giving subcutaneous fluids to tiny 30 gram naked baby birds with insulin syringes. They scream in pain the entire time and try to get away. And you have to do it on each flank. Terrible.

As for the apple juice in the water, I tried that once with Rory when he was refusing to drink water and the apple juice did not tempt him at all. Neither did Pedialyte.

 

[Jenk]

SnowyShiloh wrote:

Know what's REALLY stressful? Giving subcutaneous fluids to tiny 30 gram naked baby birds with insulin syringes. They scream in pain the entire time and try to get away. And you have to do it on each flank. Terrible.

:shock: That process clearly is hard on both parties. Poor baby birds...

As for the apple juice in the water, I tried that once with Rory when he was refusing to drink water and the apple juice did not tempt him at all. Neither did Pedialyte.

I think that I tried the apple juice method long ago--so long ago that I can't recall if Emma drank more. Heh. It can't hurt to try it again, though.

I was going to add some to her water last night but learned that my husband had finished off the apple juice recently. That would figure, right? I guess I'll find myself at the grocery store today to find some no-sugar-added apple juice.


Jenk

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

The amount of apple juice I have added is just the amount that I have decided to add; it is not basedon anything I have read. I probably started out with a tiny amount in the beginning and added a little more when I knew they were not having any issues.

Do you just pour some juice in the water dish without measuring it anymore? I'm guessing that's your meaning.

I must start this test with a specified amount of juice--maybe 1-2 tsp. in 300 mL's of water. (I'd think that a sensitive bun nose would still detect that small of a change.)


Jenk

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Jen, when I did it, I just splashed maybe a tablespoon of juice in the bowl then added 2 cups of water. Certainly was not enough to tempt Rory!

 

[Maureen Las]

I usually put a 'spash" in the bowl like I would put cream in a my coffee

Last night I did measure it with a measuring cup ; in a 300 cc crock I put about 25 cc apple juice.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

Last night I did measure it with a measuring cup ; in a 300 cc crock I put about 25 cc apple juice.

That seems like a lot of juice--more than I'd be comfortable giving, since Emma has so many stasis issues as it is. I realize that you've slowly increased the amount and that your buns' have adjusted to it fine.

I'd be more comfortable starting with about 1 Tbsp. in 300 mL's of water. I realize there's a very good chance that Emma wouldn't notice much of a difference and, thus, wouldn't be tempted by it; still, I'd feel better starting with a small amount and allowing her gut to adjust to it over time.


Jenk