wet butt and light spot inside eye, Possible EC

Love your rabbit
Advertise with us
shop deals on amazon
Shop deals on ebay
Rabbits Online Forum

Help Support Rabbits Online Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
SnowyShiloh

SnowyShiloh

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
6,033
Reaction score
51
Location
Alaska, USA
I'm quite worried about Skyler. For reference, he is an almost 2 year old neutered male Dutch bunny. He lives indoors. His food is Zupreem Nature's Promise timothy pellets (about 2 tablespoons per day), unlimited timothy hay and veggies about 3 times per week. He's been acting fine and his litterbox skills are the same as normal. His poop is fine. His pee smells the same as always. He's as hungry as ever. Weight is normal. Is that enough background info?

About 3 months ago he had a UTI. I noticed he was drinking more water than normal, peeing outside his litter box, and his butt was wet. He was on Baytril for 2 weeks and got better! Stopped peeing in the wrong places and his butt got dry, an his water intake went down.

Tonight I picked him up out of his cage, and his butt is wet again. Oy. He had a bath because I didn't want his skin to be burned. The bath was traumatic for him. He went into a daze/trance and would alternate between fighting mightily with his heart racing, and being completely blank eyed and limp. It was scary! I had to forge on though because he still had soap on his butt and I didn't want it to hurt his skin/make him sick from licking it. The good news is that once I put him down, he started acting normally again. I cleaned his litter boxes and put his litter box grates in the boxes, which keep him from sitting right on the litter. I'd taken them out because they were originally in there to prevent digging in the litter, but he stopped digging and had taken to pulling the grates out and flinging them around the cage.

So, that right there warrants a vet visit ASAP to me. I found something possibly even scarier on him though. One of his eyes has a lighter spot in it. It's in the pupil, right on the edge to the iris. It's a lighter brown and in the eye rather than on it. I'd get a photo, but I don't know if it will show up on my camera and he's had a traumatic enough night as is.

Gosh, am I worried about him. UTI and eye thing. What does the eye thing mean? Cancer? Tumor? Cataracts?

Of course this is finals week at school, and I'm going to be out of town for an entire month starting December 23rd. If he's really sick, I'm going to cancel the trip, which will not make my family happy (do they give refunds for tickets this late?), but I couldn't forgive myself if he got sicker or died while I was gone. Paul will be here to take care of him, but still.
 
Hi, I would make a vet appt soon, especially because you're leaving town soon.

Here is a pic of an eye with a corneal ulcer:
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Differential/Corneal_ulcers.htm

This is a condition I think I've seen in some rabbits at the shelter, it doesn't really have a treatment and isn't painful:
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Disorder/Lipidosis_cornea.pdf

This is a disease where part of the eye grows over the iris: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Disorder/pseudopterygium.PDF

And this shows a healed corneal abrasion scar: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Disorder/Corneal_ulcers.pdf

I have seen white things in the eyes before, like discolorations on the iris, in healthy, recently vet-checked bunnies at the shelter. The fact that it hasn't been there before to me means it needs a look before I say don't worry about it.

I kind of worry a bit about EC. The reason is this persistent issues with the urinary tract, plus it can have neurological signs. IF the vet mentions EC, make sure you get him on one of the newer antiparasitics. Marquis (ponazuril) is what Randy has had success with. The older drugs don't work as well, and many of them have names that end in -bendazole, or -azole.

It might help if you look at those pics and see if they look like Skyler's eye.
 
Thanks for the reply, Claire! I looked through the Library section on eyes last night after posting here. Of the things you posted, it kind of looks like the lipidosis, but the picture isn't that great. He's fed a good diet though, the thing is light brown, and it isn't raised. I looked at it again, and a good way to imagine what it looks like is those glass marbles that are clear or some other see through color but have a more solid color swirled inside them. You can see the solid color inside. Does that make sense? And it isn't just a dot in his eye, there's a dot a millimeter or two across on the edge between his pupil and iris, then it has a "tail" that kind of goes around the inside edge of the iris, making the edge of the pupil look irregular.

I'm quite certain this won't show up in any photo because you need a good light to see it and his eyeball is shiny already.

Either way, I made an appointment for him tomorrow at 4:30. It's with a new vet at a different clinic than he usually goes to, I'd heard good things about her from another bunny person but she left town for a couple years and has recently moved back!
 
Glad you got an appt with a vet that may be better! I have seen stuff like you're describing before. It sounds a lot like what a few shelter bunnies have had. They didn't have any special medical notes about it, so it may just be nothing, but like I said, the fact that it's just shown up means it should be checked out. Good luck at the vet!

edit: I did some more internet digging (opthamology is NOT for me! Yuck!) and found this picture :(
untitled.jpg

at http://www.fecava.org/files/ejcap/EJCAP 17-3 p242-252 Rabbit and rodent ophthalmology.pdf.pdf
WARNING DO NOT LOOK AT LINK IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH
there are a lot of very VERY gross pics of rodent and rabbit eyes: this one is about the least disturbing of them all!

So I wonder if it's EC... Not a good sign of course, but it could be the lipidosis too.
:?:nerves1

If it is EC, though, we'll make sure your vet hears the latest treatments!
 
Uh oh Claire, that looks like it. That looks like a more advanced version of it though. Will my boy be ok??

Thanks for looking through the photos, I tried too and did a GIS of corneal lipidosis but in the first page didn't see anything that looked right- just things that looked horrifying.

Worry worry. Time to read up on EC.
 
Claire, I feel like barfing. EC can cause renal failure too, which I'd imagine could be showing itself as his urinary problems. The last vet cultured his pee though and said it had some bacteria in it that would cause a UTI. EC is one of those things that most bunnies have in them, right? Are my other babies at risk?? Should I call the vet and tell her about EC before our appointment? I'm going to print out some stuff to bring tomorrow. Where to start..
 
I should add that Skyler has also lost weight. He was a bit overweight before and I was slowly cutting back on his pellets. The vet last time said he felt like a healthy weight (I don't think he's lost anymore since then), so I really hope the weight loss is the result of his diet change rather than another sign of EC.
 
Don't worry, EC can be treated or at least managed. I'll try to get Randy's attention to this thread as he has had some success with a different antiparasitic drug than is typically used for EC, called Marquis (ponazuril). I too was worried when I saw pee issues and also eye isues. Urinary issues are one of the earlier signs of EC. However, the fact that I've seen it on healthy shelter rabbits may mean that it's nothing.

I would bring any previous vet info that you have. It is possible that he just has a very nasty urinary bacteria that won't go away, and the eye thing is unrelated.

Randy will probably be able to comment on the eye thing, whether he's seen it in bunnies with EC and at what stage of the disease he's seen it in. It's possible that they only see this in later stages, after other neurological issues set in, which would say to me that this is something else. He may also know whether it is worth it to have an EC titer done as well.

I know you got Skyler from RAL Rabbitry. I have seen some rabbitries that say they have no EC in their stock--particularly rabbitries that supply lab animals--verified by EC titer. I don't know how big an operation she has or if she's ever checked to see if there's EC in her barn. It's usually safe to assume that he has been exposed to it, but there are the rare rabbitries that say they don't have EC in their population.

Hang on--we'll figure out what it is, and get it taken care of! :bouquet:
 
Claire, I was thinking about Jesse too. If he does have it, I'd guess he got it from there. I'm not "blaming" her AT ALL since I know tons of bunnies have it, I'm just hoping her bunnies are all okay!!

Since EC is behind so many bad things, does this mean he will get those bad things? Will he have neurological problems and get paralyzed eventually? Is he more susceptible to head tilt now? How long can bunnies with EC live? Will he be happy? He seems like his normal happy self so far. He's a sweet boy and doesn't deserve this.

Claire, thanks for being such a big help so far! I really appreciate it.
 
See if there is any way you can get a picture of the eye. Could be an ulcer....I have an excellent treatment for those that few vets are aware of. But I have to consider EC here. Lipidosis is a symptom of EC. It will sometimes look like a snowstorm in the pupil....and it will start filling in the pupil as EC progresses. I would certainly run a full CBC with EC titer....and there are only a few labs that can titer EC. The titer will be positive since all domestic rabbits have been exposed but it's the interpretation of the findings plus follow up titers in a few weeks. I would also ask for a full urinalysis....a cytology at a minimum. And if your vet has access to Ponazuril....it would certainly be advisable to start on that drug.

I will tell you that not many vets have ever encountered areal case of EC. Might not be able to interpret the titer labs and probably would want to use one the "bendazoles"....which have traditionally been the most common treatment...but mostly ineffective. And whatever is done.....DO NOT give any steroids as some vets are prone to do. If this is EC, you don't need to do anything to bring down the immune system. I am always available to discuss EC treatments with vets if they are willing....they just need to know that I am not a vet.

But don't get too upset before you get a diagnosis....might be something quite simple to deal with.

Randy
 
If it's EC, you've gotten it pretty early in the process. He may be more susceptible to infections, or have paralysis and other neurological symptoms. However, aggressive treatment with antiparasitics (like Marquis) may control the parasite. I know when we think about EC, it's all sadness and heartbreak and terrible stories. I don't think that's always the case. Long-term treatment with strong, new drugs seems to have much better success than they used to have with the -azole compounds. Some bunnies even did get treated with the -azoles back in the day.
 
Thanks for replying, Randy! Here, I got a decent photo of the eye. It took a while!

IMG_1864resized.jpg


The light brown thing is the main spot. If you look, you can see that the border between the iris and pupil is pretty "clean" except for the lower right side, where the light brown dot has kind of a tail making the border look ragged. It's all in the eye, the surface of his eye is perfectly smooth.

What do you think of the picture, Randy? And Claire does it look like what you've seen?

I will pass on everything you said to the vet tomorrow, Randy. I've only worked with this vet once before, but she was very nice. My friend works with her on a weekly basis (she has a rat rescue) and said this vet is very open to new treatments and always goes home to research stuff. This vet has also worked with a rabbit rescue and spayed over 200 girl bunnies so she knows some about rabbits too.

Edited to say that most of the weird lines on his eye are just glare. The only part of his eye that looks different is the brown spot and the area beneath/to the right side of it.
 
I have seen that before....it's inside the pupil and it most likely will continue to grow and will most likely involve the other eye too. That is usually a sign of EC. Keep in mind that looking ata picture is much different than actually seeing it....so don't jump to conclusions before your vet can do a PE. But I would certainly do the tests I mentioned.....CBC w/EC titer and a urinalysis. Keep a very close watch on the left rear leg for any signs of a neuro marker. The earliest presentations of EC are urinary incontenance and avery slight paresis in the left rear leg. Sometimes it may appear that the leg is being stretched or they forget how to use that leg and it drags....and it may be very slight. And push the hydration. If it is EC, being able to administer fluids sub-q will be very important in supporting the renal system. If you don't know how, have your vet teach you. And I can teach you our push method once you master the needles.....pushing is much quicker and less stressful.

If this is EC, I agree with Claire that you have probably caught it early. Even if the tests are indeterminate, I would highly suggest starting on a full round of Ponazuril. It's a fairly inert drug in the overall picture so it won't hurt. Might even add some Panacur in there for good measure.

Randy
 
It's hard to tell. It looks like it's in the pupil and the uvea (the colored part of the eye), and like it's more in the eye itself, rather than on the surface like a corneal ulcer would be. The vet can stain the eye with a dye to make sure it's not an ulcer, but I agree that you should have an EC titer done if possible, and look into ponazuril. Thanks for the pic. It really doesn't look as bad as the ones I've seen online, but it does look more like the lipidosis/EC thing.

I seem to remember the shelter rabbits having more of a discoloration in the uvea itself--the colored part, like part of their uvea lost pigment or never had pigment there. I don't remember there being white on the pupil itself. However it's been a few weeks since I looked in depth at one.
 
Thanks so much, you two. Now it's all I see when I look at his eye, I can't believe I didn't see it before! How quickly do they grow? Will he go blind? If he does have EC, how long will he live? I wish we could go to the vet tonight.

I will write down all those things you said to have done, Randy, and print out some info to bring along. I will be keeping a really close eye on that left leg too.
 
My brain has been so full of this EC talk that it took a while for me to make the connection. Rory had urinary incontinence at the same time as Skyler. His went away with Baytril (he was treated for a UTI). Do you think Rory really had a UTI or is he showing the same EC symptoms, just earlier on than Skyler? Should I take him to the vet too or do I just need to wait? He got better with the Baytril and has only had 1 pee incident, about a week ago.
 
I would wait and see what the diag is. The thing with EC is that many vets will misdiagnose it as a UTI. They will start Baytril and it seems to resolve. But it's not the drug, it's the immune system making a counter attack. Baytril isn't very effective against most bacteria these days....and UTIs and LRIs are particularly difficult to treat. Most exotic focus vets have abandoned Baytril as there are numerous abx that are safe and more effective.

Randy
 
Randy, thanks! Should I keep my eyes peeled in case Rory shows the same symptoms as Skyler?

Also, what is the eye thing called? Will Skyler go blind? How definitive of a diagnosis can I expect from the vet tomorrow? I'm supposed to be out of the state from December 23 until January 21st. Should I cancel my trip? My fiance was going to take care of the bunnies while I'm gone, but I'm afraid this could be too much for him.
 
I think since it appears to be early, he may not lose vision, etc.

Certainly watch Rory, but often another disease can cause EC to turn into an active infection. The stress on their system reduces their ability to keep EC in check, and leads to an active case.

The vet can take blood for an EC titer, which will take probably a week to get back. I don't know where the nearest EC testing facility is for you; He can start Skyler on ponazuril right away, if he has it, and that should be pretty simple to administer as I think it is oral. I wouldn't cancel your trip yet. I think the vet would want to treat for at least 2 weeks before taking another EC titer to see if the treatment is helping.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top