Uneaten cecotropes

[Zekapa]

Dear members and rabbit lovers

I'm new here and I hope to stay for a while but hopefully on other, more cheerful parts of the forum.
Now however I would like to ask for your help and I apologize for the long post in advance.
I have angora-teddy rabbit, (s)he (still not confident about the sex) is almost 3months old and we got him 10 days ago. THe first morning after he came I saw a couple of cecotropes inside the cage and thought it must've been because of the stress, new environment etc.
At the breeder's he was fed corn seeds, barley and wheat straw. I tried to mix that with the pellets for baby rabbits but soon (I think it was 1-2 days after) he got mushy stool. Since we weren't sure what it was, we decided to give him just hay (I don't know if it's timothy or alfalfa because here - I'm in Belgrade, Serbia - the packages don't have that kind of info, but it is the most expensive one anyhow). Those 24 hours his stool didn't get better, on the contrary. We started seeing some slimy stuff around the poop, then there was some red slimy stuff, and then the poop was small, the other time it was big and then again something completely different. So,basically, it was a mix of different sizes, shapes and layers. We saw our vet (rabbit-savvy) who told us we should relax, it's normal, he's perfectly healthy and he advised to give him the pellets again. We took his advice and his stool really did improve. Now it's great actually. I"m still not sure what had happened that day, maybe it was because he changed his diet, I have no idea.
But... every night he poops cecotropes and there's plenty of them - around 7-8 big ones plus the normal droppings. He doesn't want to eat them (or he does but leaves the rest) and every morning I must take him and clean him which is very stressful for him and one day he despised me completely the whole day because of that.
During the day his stool is normal, he eats normally, takes enough hay, drinks water, is active and cuddly.
Should I be worried? Do you have any advice?
Thanks for reading and once more, I apologize for the long post.

 

[JBun]

Mucous in a rabbits poop definitely isn't normal, nor is smaller or larger than usual fecals. Mucous in the poop is called mucoid enteritis, and is caused by inflammation in the GI tract. It can have various causes, from a gut slowdown resulting from diet imbalance or stress, to bacteria or parasites. Rabbits can be very vulnerable to diet changes, so it could have been the sudden introduction of new pellets that caused the initial mushy poop. Or it could have been that he had coccidiosis or a bacterial cause, and was able to recover from it on his own. It's hard to know though. Usually in cases of mushy poop, it is caused by too many carbs and sugars in a rabbits diet, or sudden introduction of a new food that a rabbit is sensitive to. I don't know what those pellets have in them, but usually rabbit pellets are grass or alfalfa based, then have added grain, sugars, minerals, and vitamins. So it could have been the grain or sugar in the pellets that caused the mushy poop. Usually when you are seeing mushy poop in a rabbit, the way to correct it is by stopping pellets and feeding only hay until the fecal poop is normal(sometimes can take up to a week to start to see improvement. But your rabbit starting to have mucous, and small/large fecal poop, isn't a normal reaction to stopping pellets and feeding grass hay. So that's why I'm thinking it could have been a parasite or bacterial cause. It's also possible that the kind of hay you were using may have caused the problem. Typically regular grass hay like timothy, meadow, orchard, bermuda, coastal, isn't going to cause any digestive problems. But if you don't really know what was in that hay, it could have been an unknown toxic plant in the hay, or the hay itself was something other than grass hay. There is also a possibility that if it was alfalfa, it could have caused the problem. Some rabbits are sensitive to alfalfa, and especially if it is introduced into the diet suddenly. I always will introduce it very gradually with my rabbits. Most grass hay is good for rabbits, and even good clean straw is probably ok, fed along with pellets, but you want to be sure of what exactly it is, and that it isn't moldy.

With your current problem, your rabbit is either having excess cecotropes from a diet that is too rich, usually from excess protein from the pellets, or there is a bacterial imbalance in his gut causing his cecotropes to not smell or taste right, and so he won't eat them. The bacterial imbalance will also cause the cecotropes to be mushy and stick to the fur around the bum. Both of these problems are fixed by decreasing pellet amounts and increasing grass hay, or straw would be ok too if it's all you can get. About how big is he and how much of the pellets and hay are you feeding now? Do you know what kind of hay he is currently getting?

 

[keli]

Speaking from limited experience, my bunny doesn't eat them if she's had too many veg and feels she doesn't need any more protein in her diet, or if i walk into the room and disturb her before she can process them.
It shouldn't really matter how much hay/pellet your rabbit has because they should have unlimited supply for the first few months so they know how much is right for them.

 

[Zekapa]

Thank you for your answers
This was the first morning I didn't find so many cecotropes, only three small pieces and I was very happy but now I can see that his stool is mushy again :expressionless and it hasn't been for the last seven days.
I forgot to mention that I've been putting ProDigest (http://www.su-dal.hr/male_zivotinje_glodavci/male_zivotinje_glodavci_slike/Pro-Digest.jpg) in his water for seven days now and today was the first day I decided not to do it, maybe it's got something to do with that?
This is the hay he's been eating http://www.svezakucneljubimce.com/files/1800/natural-hay-fibres-versele-laga-srbija.jpg. And this is the pellets ingredients:

Analytical constituents


Crude protein 16,50 %

Crude fat 4 %

Crude fibre 15 %

Crude ash 6 %

Calcium 0,70 %

Phosphorus 0,50 %

Lysine 0,81 %

Methionine 0,29 %

Vitamin A 16.000 IU/kg

Vitamin D3 1.500 IU/kg

Vitamin E 40 mg/kg

Copper-cupric(II)sulfat 13 mg/kg




Composition

Derivatives of vegetable origin

Vegetables

Cereals

Vegetable protein extracts

Seeds

Fruit

Minerals

Yeast

Calendula extract

Fructo-oligosaccharides

Algae

Yucca extract

Herbs

Mannan-oligosaccharides

Grape seed extract

I'm not sure what to do now - whether to cut back on pellets and give him hay only (I wasn't aware that it can take up to seven days to restore his natural balance :embarrassed: ). He'll be 3 months old in 3 days and he always has pellets in his bowl (we were told that they should have unlimited amount until 6 months old or so). I'm not sure about his weight because the vet didn't measure him or anything...but he's about 20 cm (7.9 inches) in length and he isn't overweight

 

[tonyshuman]

The Pro-Digest is probably good and the hay looks good. I'm not sure about the pellets. Do they look like a mix of different shapes and seeds? You want to get a pellet that looks just like pellets if you can. The composition as far as percentages go is ok. Ideally we'd like to see more fiber (>20% if you can find it) and less fat (<3%). I don't know if there is another one available. Actually in some places the pellets that are meant for rabbit breeders are the best available and the ones marketed toward pet owners are trash. The protein content is good. I would keep the diet as stable as possible at this point. That will keep him from getting mushy poops.

 

[Zekapa]

The pellets are of different shapes and sizes and I know it shouldn't be like that but this is Junior food (for rabbits under 6 months) so I naturally assumed they knew what they were doing when they made it that way.
I forgot to mention that his cecotropes don't stick to the bum, he just steps over them and gets all messy but otherwise he seems completely OK. Yesterday he had one round of mushy stool but the next one (like within 10 minutes) was perfectly normal
Maybe he's still getting used to it but it's been 2 weeks now, I have no idea really

 

[JBun]

Normally young rabbits should have unlimited pellets, and all rabbits should have unlimited hay, but when you have a rabbit that develops digestive problems from it's food, you just have to tailor their diet to keep their digestion functioning well and keep them healthy. I had a young rabbit that got mushy poop, but once I decreased her pellet amount, they went away. These links help explain what's happening with your rabbit. It's called cecal dysbiosis, or Intermittent Soft Stools or Cecotropes.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/drop/Drp_en.htm
http://www.sawneeanimalclinic.com/downloads/chronic_intermittent_diarrhea_in_rabbits.pdf
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=3012

 

[Zekapa]

I'd previously read all those links apart from the .pdf and what now baffles me is the amount of pellets I should give him. It says there that the diet should be hay only but it sounds too much especially considering he's still a bunny-in-progress
Do you have any advice on that? Two times a day, three times...?

 

[JBun]

Rabbits should always have hay to munch on. It shouldn't be limited. It's an important part of their digestive function as the fiber helps keep food moving through. Foods high in sugars and carbs create a gut slowdown and bacterial overgrowth, which then can lead to small irregular fecal poop(GI stasis) and/or mushy cecotropes(cecal dysbiosis). So that is why it is important to find the right balance for your rabbit. A hay only diet and stopping pellets is supposed to only be for a few days, just to clear up the digestive upset and get the poop back to normal, then you can gradually start reintroducing pellets back into the diet. You'll reduce the final amount by a little, so that you aren't feeding as much as you were before, or the soft poop may come back. You don't want to eliminate pellets completely, as they have nutrients in them that a rabbit can't get from grass hay alone.

Some rabbits can't tolerate pellets at all without it causing digestive problems, so in that case you would need to stop all pellets and find other foods to make up for the missing nutrients. Forage foods that are safe for rabbits, can be used, as well as veggies, but any new food should always be introduced one at a time and starting with small amounts and gradually increasing if it doesn't cause any digestive upset.

What I do when I start to see soft poop with my rabbits is to stop pellets for a day or two, then if the soft poop goes away, I will add a little bit of pellets into the diet. Probably about a teaspoon twice a day, and increase that amount each day. If I start to see soft poop again, I'll cut back the amount I'm feeding until the soft poop stops, then more slowly try to increase the amount and see if that helps.

If you are concerned about your bunny getting enough protein for growing, especially because you have a long furred breed and they need higher protein, you could try adding a little alfalfa hay into the diet. You want to start off with a tiny amount, as alfalfa can sometimes cause digestive upset if introduced too quickly. Give it a couple times a day and gradually increase the amount each day if their isn't any digestive upset with it. This way your bunny will get the extra protein and calcium it needs for growing, but won't get the extra carbs and sugars from the pellets, that are causing the digestive issues.

 

[Zekapa]

Thanks for your detailed explanation
So just to be clear:
- excessive cecotropes and mushy stool should be taken care of the same way -by cutting back on pellets and it should be for a couple of days tops. if it's still there then i should see a vet?

as for alfalfa, I'm not sure we have it here really :/
today for example, I bought a different type of hay but it still doesn't say what exactly it has inside, just that it's meadow hay http://www.raggiodisole.biz/joomla/roditori-e-conigli-nani-throls-natura/fien-d-alpe_it.html
it smells nice though

I'll call my vet tomorrow once more and see what he's got to say about this and I'll let you know of course.

Thanks

 

[Zekapa]

well...I spoke to my vet and he said I shouldn't cut back on pellets and that there's no reason to worry about so many cecotropes at night.
I decided to take your advice instead and give him less food today but after a couple of hours (now it's almost evening), we noticed mushy stool and again there are different sizes and shapes of poop lying around he ate hay and less pellets (not considerably less so it wasn't a shock for his organism or something like that).
should we still carry on with this reduced diet or?
I'm really sorry if I'm bothering you too much but I really don't know what to do because it seems whatever I do some problem pops out

 

[JBun]

I think that maybe the hay that you have available to you, may have something different than what we use here in the US. Ours is just plain grass hay, and increasing it and decreasing pellets, is what generally works best to clear up digestive problems with rabbits. But that is here. So unless you can get a different grass hay, where you know exactly what kind of grass it is, you may just need to stick to the diet that your rabbit had before. It is much better for a rabbit to have too many cecotropes, than to have mushy ones. So if your rabbit is more stable on more pellets and less hay, then that might just be the best thing for your bun. I would still suggest trying to find a different grass hay though. It sounds like that company's hay may have a problem with it, may have mold or some plant that is causing problems for your rabbit. If you have livestock feed stores, a horse barn that will sell you one, or can find a farmer selling grass hay, buying a bale of it from one of those might be better. It's usually lots cheaper too. Just make sure it is pretty much weed free, hasn't ever been wet or gotten moldy. If they can tell you exactly what kind of grass it is, that would be the best thing. You want a good horse quality grass hay, preferrably stored in a covered barn. Don't get cow hay. It's a lesser quality and may be moldy. Maybe the breeder that you got your rabbit from, can tell you where to get some hay from, or maybe sale you a bale.

 

[hannaroo]

You should take a sample to your vet. As gruesome as it sounds, I'd your really that concerned and think your vet isn't clear on what the poops are like show him! He can tell you and state if you should be worried or not. Are your bunnies indoor or outdoor? A change in diet pretty much always changes a rabbits stools so a different hay/pellet/grass or even water (by this I mean the area water) can cause the cereals to become abnormal.

 

[Zekapa]

I just gave him a bowl of pellets, he ate everything in an instant and now he's eating hay too and the droppings are back to normal :expressionless and what's more, the whole day he's been passive and dormant but now he's cheerful and doing binkies around the room :expressionless
The breeder gave him wheat straw and the mix of corn and barley and he seemed to be doing just fine because I remember when we first got him his droppings were perfect really. So maybe it's these commercial pellets and commercial straw, maybe he's still getting used to it (it's been 2 weeks now).
Bunny is indoors and we don't give him anything else but the pellets and hay which is supposedly meadow hay.
Thanks anyway, we'll see how things go.
Btw, I tried to find natural hay but for now it's a bit inconvenient since I don't have a car to go to the village and buy it so I'm waiting for someone to drop off there and take one bale or something...

@hannaroo
my vet already thinks I'm a drama queen so I think if I go there once more with a stool sample he'll probably block my calls and unfortunately, he's the closest to rabbit savvy vet that we have around here

Thank you all once more for your quick answers

 

[JBun]

It really sounds to me that there is something not quite right about that hay. Normal grass hay should not be causing problems like that. If you find you want to change the hay at some point, I think the wheat straw would be ok. It's not the best, but it would provide lots of fiber, and that is always a good thing for rabbits. Maybe the breeder would just sell you a big bag of it.

 

[Zekapa]

Will do that, thanks
In the meantime, I hope he'll be fine.

 

[hannaroo]

haha it can be rather embarrasing when you have to insist theres an abnormality to a vet! Keep an eye on his droppings though, you must take him back with samples if the problem does not resolve itself as its important the ceceals are formed properly so your rabbit gets the correct nutrients and doesnt get a sticky bum which can lead to problems such as flystrike and a real headache for you to clean up! Younger rabbits are also more vunerable to illness. Was your breeder local? Sometimes a change in water can even upset their tummies. I got my buns from a breeder 50 miles away and the change in the water effected their tummies.
I hope he's better and settling in well! They're so adorable at that age!:yahoo:

 

[Zekapa]

An update:
we've been seeing less cecotropes over the past 2-3 days, and we've cut back on his pellets gradually so I suppose it's related. The droppings are also okay I guess, though I sometimes do see very small ones (2-3 daily) but I'm not worried since he's been acting fine.
the breeder was some 100km away, who knows, maybe it is the water, I really have no clue. so far he's been fine, hopefully it'll stay that way.
we check his bum every morning and clean it if it's necessary but fortunately, the cecotropes don't stick to his fur very often so that's relieving at least. we're on alert 24/7 :cop:

 

[hannaroo]

thats good! sometimes they overproduce ceceal when they are young. Mine did whenever they woofed down pellets so i gave them pellets in a treat ball so it took them longer to eat them and saw a huge improvement!

 

[Zekapa]

that's what I was thinking too - that maybe it's because he's still young. I don't want to jinx it though, so far so good