Teeth loss/fallen off?

[the fluffies]

Location : Malaysia

Alfie
Both parents are mixed lionheads, agouti color, 2.1kg
2.5years old
Male, un-neutered

Mocha
Mom is a mixed dutch, dad is a mixed lionhead, agouti color, 2.4kg
3 years old
Male, neutered

Today is their monthly grooming session. I was trimming Alfie's fur and found that some of his hair get into his eyes and his right eye is a bit watery. I was a bit worried to see the matted fur near the watery eyes, so i checked on his teeth. And i found one of his front lower left tooth was gone!

Then i checked all my 12 bunnies and found out Mocha's front lower right tooth was gone too :?.

Alfie loves to chew his cage bars, but not Mocha. Both of them are eating well and love their long strand hays. Other than losing their teeth, they don't show any sign of health problem. No abscess, eating and drinking normally like the rest.

Since they're from the same buck (Daddy Dino), so i checked on their dad too. This is the Dino's teeth photo. It looks normal to me, except his lower left is slightly misaligned.

Another photo of Dino's teeth

Any of your bunnies experienced teeth loss? Is this a sign or dental/malocclusion? Other than sending them for xray, is there any other way to diagnose/confirm this problem?

Thanks.

-Nerq-

 

[Maureen Las]

I would be concerned about bar chewing because it could not only damage and loosen the teeth but also cause trauma to the gum and root of the tooth. Is it possible for you to possibly get another cage which hasvertical bars ? or keep them in xpens . My rabbit are in xpens so they have a lot of room and because of that none of them chew bars.

I was studying the pictures and what I do not understand is why the oppsing upper incisor on both rabbits is not really overgrown. Usually if a rabbit loses a tooth the opposing tooth will over grow because there is no grinding action . Both uppers on both rabbits are longer than normal but not to an alarming extent

Unless the circular motion of chewing hay is allowing the one lower incisor to grind both uppers :?

Whateverit is ..it really good that the opposing teeth have not overgrown for whatever reason but you will need to watch for it.

Their gums , mouthes and teeth all look healthy and it doesn't appear that they lost the teeth recently as everything looks all healed and normal except the missing teeth.

You can really never know what is going on with rabbit teeth without xrays but to be honestI don't see anything visually that you should be alarmed about.

In terms of the eyeI would just try to keep the fur out of it and see if it dries up on it own..

I may pm Flick to take a look at this ....as I may not be seeing something

 

[pamnock]

It's not unusual for a tooth to break off fromcage biting. Do you know for certain that the teeth were there before (on occasion, rabbits may be born with teeth missing).

If the teeth were actually broken off, they should grow back withing 2 weeks. If not, I would suspect a congenital condition. Since the sire's tooth also shows an abnormality, it could be a genetic.

 

[Flick]

I agree with Angieluv. Except for the missing teeth, their mouths look healthy to me. Keep an eye on their incisors to make sure they're kept at a reasonable length. It's odd that one of Alfie's incisors has a longer point on the tooth that's opposite the lower incisor. But, again, it's not too long. Mocha is doing a great job of keeping his upper incisors evenly trimmed. It looks like his lower incisor shifted to the center a little bit, so he's able to use it to keep both upper incisors evenly trimmed.

I don't think either incisor is going to grow back. We originally removed both of Stella's lower incisors and both grew back, very quickly. Then, we removed just the worst one with plans to remove the other one at a later date. However, when the gums had healed and I took her in for a check-up and to get the other one removed, she was using it to keep her upper incisors trimmed. So, we decided to let her keep it and see what happens. She's been able to do a fair job of keeping her upper teeth trimmed with just 1 lower tooth.

If the upper teeth start curling into the mouth, or if the lower tooth grows so that it protrudes outside the mouth, those would be problems that would need a vet. Rabbit teeth can decay if not kept short. So, dark brown areas as seen in the following picture would indicate decay and need to be seen by a vet. But, you wouldn't allow your rabbits' teeth to get in this condition in the first place.

I have noticed that when her upper teeth are getting too long, I'll see her making large circular mouth movements to wear them down.

Run your finger along Alfie's and Mocha's lower jaw where the tooth is missing and feel for any lump(s) in the area that could indicate an abscess. If you don't feel anything out of the ordinary and they're eating okay, etc., I think they're doing fine. Actually, I'd be ecstatic if Stella's teeth looked as good as theirs.

As Angieluv said, without x-rays, we can't know for sure what's going on, but I don't see a need for x-rays, now, unless you feel a lump on the lower chin. Whatever trauma caused the tooth loss, it's over and done with and healed up nicely. Just check them ever so often to make sure they haven't grown too long.

 

[the fluffies]

I remember giving them a multivitamin syrup (Nutri-drop) less than 2 weeks ago. And i remember i checked their teeth too. No sign of teeth loose or anything abnormal on their teeth.

Could be i fed them too much sugary fruits? They have fruit/veggies salad every night. They have 2-3 serves of fruits per week. I feed them a slice (1 inch x 1 inch cube)of papaya/watermelon/apple every alternate days. Is it too much for rabbits?

Can the teeth grow back? Because i see no sign of the new teeth come out from the gum.

:confused2:

 

[the fluffies]

I faced the same experience with my first bunny i had in 2005. He was not a hay eater. In fact, very hard to get him eat his hay. That time, I had no experience/knowledge rearing a bunny. He had been feeding on fruits, leafy veggies and colorful lousy pellets and was given junk foods including chocs and cookies

And as a result, when he turned 2, his lower teeth started to fallen off one by one, and never grew back. He started to develop abscess on his cheek. So the vet had to pull out the upper teeth including the peg teeth. The vet didn't give any painkiller or anesthesia. He just pulled out the teeth with a medical pliers and put my rabbit on oral antibiotic for almost a month. And since then, my rabbit's health getting worst and he died a few months after that due to bloat (my vet called it as emphysema).

So when i see this happen to Mocha and Alfie, i really worries me.

I checked everything on them yesterday. Both has no lump/abscess under the chin, jaw, cheek.

Could it be genetic issue? I check on them at least once a month. Their teeth were ok all this time, until last night.

 

[pamnock]

It could be genetic, or could be nutritionally related since you've had this problem before. The teeth however, appear to be healthy in the photo.

 

[the fluffies]

Genetic can show up even at older age? I thought genetic will show when they were still young, like a few months old.

About the nutrition, that was happened on my first rabbit, Elnino, long before i had this batch.

I read about their diet and proper rabbit care before i took them home. I never feed junk to my bunnies. As the occasionally treat, i feed them only 1 raisin, during their birthday, or once - twice a month.

All of them are feed on :
- Owbow BBT pellet,
- unlimited timothy hay,
- Oxbow orchard grass and alfalfa hay on the mid-week,
- a small bowl of chopped leafy veggies (cilantro/bokchoy/a slice of carrot/broccoli) or a slice of fruit (melon, papaya, apple) as their night snack.
- a teaspoon of organic rolled oat and a pinch of flexseed once a week.

If is it because of the diet i've been feed them all this time, should i remove the fruits from their night snack?

Probably feed papaya only 1 slice a week? :confused2:

 

[Maureen Las]

The bunny that you had in 2005 is not in any way related to these 2 rabbits ..right?
I don't think that it is anything that you are doing at all..unless all your rabbits are chewing their cage bars.

It has nothing to do with sugary treats as sugar causes tooth decay andI don't think those teeth rotted out.

I am very interested in why this would happen again if your 2005 bunny is not a relative of these 2.

For the time being do not blame yourself butI wish we could determine why this is happening.
Your bunnies mouths really look fine despite the missing incisors so don't freak out
Iam wondering if there is some mineral element in your water or something that could affect teeth ; since your rabits are eating Oxbow they should be getting vitamins and trace elements :?

Inever really heard of teeth falling out like that here in the US except with guinea pigs who develop scurvy ( vitamin C deficiency)which can cause them to lose their teeth.

I want to explore this more....

and thank you Flick for your always knowledgeable response.

 

[the fluffies]

Yes, Maureen. Mocha and Alfie are no related with Elnino (RIP).

Only Alfie chew his cage bars. Sometimes he pulls out the metal hay rack i hang in his cage and toss it around. But i never see Mocha chew his cage bars. He has a Living World Fiddlesticks and apple stick in his cage. But he never chew or toss them.

The water i feed them is boiled water. The same water i drink.

There was a few months ago, i fed them with Oxbow+cheap rabbit pellets i bought from the local farm animal food manufacturer because we're shortage of Oxbow in Malaysia during those months. But i thought it should be okay since they have unlimited hay and small portion of pellets just to keep them full.

 

[the fluffies]

DO u guys think Mocha & Alfie's upper teeth a bit longer?

 

[pamnock]

the fluffies wrote:

Genetic can show up even at older age? I thought genetic will show when they were still young, like a few months old.

Everything is genetically influenced and can show up at any time during a rabbit's lifespan.

 

[pamnock]

angieluv wrote:

Inever really heard of teeth falling out like that here in the US except with guinea pigs who develop scurvy ( vitamin C deficiency)which can cause them to lose their teeth.

It's actually not that unusual - I've heard of a number of cases. Many are due to mechanical trauma, although some are due to other causes including a genetic predisposition to loose the teeth.

 

[the fluffies]

Is there any diet/vitamin to help them strengthen the teeth? Like mineral stone?

 

[the fluffies]

Previously, Alfie has a watery eye on his right eye. After i trimmed the hair on his head (because i thought it probably caused by the fur that got into his eyes.

This morning i checked on him again. The right eye now has no discharge. But around the left eye looks a bit crusty. I cleaned the area with saline water. It should be ok to clean with my contact lens saline water, is it?

Is there any recommended antibiotic ointment/eye drop safe for rabbit's eyes?

 

[tonyshuman]

Don't use contact lens cleaner solution, just use sterile saline solution. Most contact lens cleaner solutions are different than sterile saline. For hard contact lenses, though, a sterile saline solution is used for heat disinfection.

A neosporin-type ointment is fine for the eyes.

 

[the fluffies]

Yeah, i'm using the saline solution, not the contact lens cleaner.

Thank, Claire!

 

[pamnock]

the fluffies wrote:

I cleaned the area with saline water. It should be ok to clean with my contact lens saline water, is it?

Is there any recommended antibiotic ointment/eye drop safe for rabbit's eyes?

Contact lens solution is sterile and isotonic - it's fine for rinsing eyes (it has the same ingredients as eye wash). Just be sure not to use contact lens "cleaners" or protein removers.

However, it's important to find out the cause of the eye problem before commencing treatment with antibiotics.

As for nutritional supplements for the teeth - the other teeth appear to be healthy, so this may not be a nutritional issue. Dark leafy greens and sunlight are good sources of nutrients for tooth strength.

 

[the fluffies]

Update on the boys..

The teeth is not grow back, just like Stella mentioned before... Rabbit teeth keep growing, rite? But i wonder why it not grow back? :?

Mocha does a great job keeping his teeth well-trimmed. No change to the upper teeth length every time i check on his teeth.

But unfortunately, Alfie's upper teeth becomes slightly longer than his previous photo.

And i noticed he lost one of his peg teeth (opposite the lost lower teeth)

And i found a small, hard lump under his chin

I rang 2 veteran vets in Penang Island today and they said they never did rabbit teeth extraction before but willing to help me with teeth clipping. One of the the vets who used to work in Singapore Zoo said the rabbit can't bite food without the front teeth. About the abscess he said he is not using Baytril and said that is not the right antibiotic for rabbit abscess and recommend me to use daily injectable antibiotic to cure the abscess. He mentioned the antibiotic's name is start with B, but i cant remember what it is..

Should i go for teeth clipping or should i find a vet in Kuala Lumpur to extract the teeth?

 

[tonyshuman]

Oh dear. That doesn't look very good. The abscess could have a lot of different causes, but my guess would be either one of the roots of the bottom incisors or the bottom molars is infected. This website is brilliant in showing what normal and abnormal rabbit teeth look like:
http://www.fightforfibre.co.uk/gallery.html

And this image from that website shows how tooth roots can cause abscesses and grow too long

The injectible antibiotic the vet is probably talking about is Bicillin, which is a combination of penicillin G procaine and penicillin G benzathine. I know members in Malaysia have had difficulty getting this before, so if your vet can get that, it would be a good treatment, although it does require injections every other day and you have to be careful not to get it on the fur as they can lick it off--it is toxic if taken orally.

Here's a rather scientific article:
http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/40/3/1044?view=full&pmid=11880435

And a general article:
http://www.ontariorabbits.org/health/healthinfo1.htm

And a Bicillin treatment protocol:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

The concern I have is, however, that the tooth root may be infected, in which case it is best for the tooth to be removed, and antibiotic treatment used.

These videos show operations where teeth are extracted and x-rays to show why they needed to be extracted. They are a bit graphic if you can't handle surgery images:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjq2ONxt3Jg[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-yqxn9P_0I[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46slQO1APuw[/ame]

If you take out the entire root of the tooth, it won't grow back.

Another issue is that if there is a problem with the top tooth, the bottom tooth will probably also have a problem because they work in pairs.

I think it would be helpful to get a dental x-ray done to see if the abscess involves his teeth and to see if the tooth roots of the top teeth are growing into the eye area, leading to the watery eye. That could really help you decide if you need to have his teeth removed.

Also, bunnies do fine without teeth. We have had several bunnies on the forum without one or some teeth. The rabbit in the videos (Stella) I think currently belongs to a forum member, Flick, and off the top of my head Naturestee had a bunny named Max who didn't have front teeth and JadeIcing had a bunny named Wyatt who didn't have any teeth. It can take the bunnies a little while to get used to eating without teeth, and if you feed veggies you may have to cut them into smaller pieces (1" or so), but bunnies can do just fine without teeth.

I am currently going through a similar concern with one of our Netherland Dwarves. He's been sneezing for months and after a few courses of oral antibiotics, changes to the environment, and even allergy medications, it's clear that something other than a URI or allergies/dust is causing it. We're taking him in on Friday for dental and abdominal x-rays (sneezing can also be a sign of a lower respiratory infection, like pneumonia), and we'll proceed from there.

It's tough but hang in there! Others have been through this and many bunnies without teeth live long and happy lives.