Sneezing and red, raw nose - Vet prescribed Albon?!

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Never2ManyBunnies

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Location
, Florida, USA
Location: Central Florida

Description (Breed, color, weight): Mixed dutch rabbit

Age: 5 Months old

Sex: Male

Concise Summary of the Rabbit's Condition: We noticed two days ago our rabbit (Congo)had what looked like a scab on one side of the nose. No other symptoms where noticed so we thought he might have hurt his nose and that we hadn't noticed. By late yesterday, his nose looked a little more raw, still had the scab, and he was sneezing 3-4 times in a row periodically.

Took Congo to the Vet this morning. It is bacteria of some type. He prescribed Albon .4cc twice daily for 10 days. Also told us to apply a thin film of Neosporin 2-3 times a day to keep it from crusting over.

Upon a quick search of prior infirmary threads - I amquestioning two things:

Willthe Albon be effective?

Will it harm his GI tract?







ADDITIONAL INFORMATION / CHECK LIST: (Please fill in relevant info).

Fecal and Urinary Output

- are the bunny's poops and pees normal?Believeso. Watching closer to make sure.
- when did they last use their litterbox?
- any unusual behavior? straining to pee? unusual litter habits? No
- what litter and/or bedding do you use? Horse bedding pellets

Medical History

- spayed/neutered? Not yet
- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? No
- is s/he on any medications? No

Diet

- what specifically does your bunny eat? Timothy and Orchard Hays, Oxbow and Pen Pal Pellets (50/50 mix),a Craisin or two daily.
- when and what did s/he eat last? still eating
- any changes in the way s/he eats? (ie: not eating a particular food, odd chewing motions, etc) No


Other

- movement - any unusual movements? No. Is s/he hopping normally? Yes
- is the rabbit molting? No
- any weight loss? No.
- any sign of drooling? No. wet face? No.
- runny eyes? No.
- wet nose? Red and raw. coughing? No. sneezing? Yes.
- is s/he breathing normally? Yes.

Additional

- any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach? No.
- has the rabbit been outdoors? No.
- any other pets?Yes. if so, have they been ill? No.


 
Most likely Albon will not be effective. It is mainly used to treat coccidia but it is ineffective against coccidia. It is a sulfa drug like Sulfatrim, SMZ, etc. Depending on the individual rabbit, it can be very stressful to the GI. The proper way to diagnose and treat is by culture. Most likely the pathogen is Pasteurella. My drugs of choice against Pasteurella is Azithromycin or Convenia.

Randy
 
Thanks Randy.

I assume the drugs of choice are only available through a Vet/prescription? I'm not sure how to approach this at this point.


 
I have called my Vet and asked if they will perform a culture and sensitivity test. I am waiting for them to call back and tell me if they will do this (receptionist had to talk to Vet.)
Is this the best approach at this point? Should I look for a different Vet first? I don't want to spend weeks/months trying different antibiotics.
 
A culture and sensitivity test is not cheap but it is the textbook way to go. It will give you the best chance of getting the right antibiotic that will kill the bacteria. However, they can take a while and can cost a lot, so it is often just simpler and cheaper to have the bunny go on an antibiotic that is often very good for URIs, like azithromycin. It's up to you.

Are you sure it's not syphilis? That often presents with scabs and stuff on the nose, that can then cause sneezing because they get crusty. Usually pasturella upper respiratory infections don't come with wounds/scabs unless the bunny's nose is raw from being wet and irritated for quite a while.
 
Thanks for the reply tonyshuman. I thought it might have been syphilis as well, after researching this online last night (not that I even have a clue when it comes to medical issues!) Can syphilis appear on the nose without showing up in the genetial area?

The Vet had taken a culture and came back and said it had bactaria in it. But didn't rule out mites which he first suspected. So I guess that does not confirm a bacterial infection?!

I have put in another call to the Vet's office asking if they will put the rabbit on azithromycin and am waiting to hear. If they say no, does anyone have any advice on questions to ask when screening for a new Vet?
 
There is also another option.....the preferred treatment for syphillis is Penicillin and usually most URIs are sensitive to Penicillin. Keep in mind that Penicillin is safe only when it is injected. I would really like to find out what bacteria is there. I suspect the original test was a cytology which most vets can do in-house. Basically you look at a slide under a scope and see what is there. You can see the bacteria but it is not possible to properly identify....you can only draw a "best guess" depending on how the bacteria presents. Most often if rods are seen in a URI, it is pasteurella.

Randy
 
Randy, yes, the vet did perform an in-house slide test. He said there was bacteria present but then towards the end of the conversation he said he still had not ruled out mites. Guess this could possibly mean he did not see rods in the slide?!

As of right now, the rabbit is scheduled to have a culture and sensitivity test performed Monday morning. Will this test also determine if it is syphilis or does that require a different test? If not, should I request he be tested for both? (I'm thinking yes.)

Will the results of the sensitivity test tell the Vet exactly which antibiotic to use? Meaning, if this Vet is not current in rabbit treatment, is there a possibility he could still prescribe an incorrect/out-of-date treatment?
 
If his nose is scabby then can you take a pic for us and put it on here.

Rabbits with syphllis often have scabs on their faces and mouths without anything on their genitals.

 
Mites can cause secondary bacterial infections....especially in the ears. If the vet dida slide, it was a cytology. I would suspect since an antibiotic was prescribed, there was something seen on the slide. The C&S will identify the bacteria and what it is sensitive to as far as drugs. Two things to watch for with a culture. One, if it comes back with no growth but you havepresentations of a bacterial infection, treat for pasteurella. Pasteurella is a faculative anaerobe and sometimes doesn't survive the trip from swab to dish. Next, the lab doesn't really care about the species so they will list the sensitive drugs without regard for safety. I had a lab insist on using Clindamycin with one of my rabbits....and if there has ever been a drug that should not be used with rabbits, it's Clindamycin. The key for a rabbit savvy vet is to study the sensitive drugs and use the drug that is appropriate and safe....depending on if the problem is bacterial, viral, yeast or whatever. Even still, most vets still are stuck on Sulfa (Albon is one of these) or the earlier Flouroquinolones (Cipro or Baytril) because they have always been deemed "safe".We now know we canchoose from more aggressive drugs that are both effective and safe (remembering there is risk in any medical treatment). Will be interested in seeing the results of the C&S.

Randy
 
Here are a few pictures of Congo's nose. The pictures were just taken today. The initial scab that was found on the right side of his nose on Wednesday was removed at the Vet's office yesterday morning. He seems to have more, smaller scabs that have appeared since yesterday. The initial scab was very large compared to what is there now.

It sounds like there is still room for error from my current Vet, when it comes to prescribing an antibiotic based on the result of a culture and sensitivity test. At this point, I am leaning towards trying another Vet I have heard about. This Vethas 6 house rabbits of her own and during her Vet school days she helped with a local rabbit rescue. I will still ask for a culture and sensitivity test from the new Vet, if it does not appear (or test out) to be syphilis.

And a bigThank You to everyone responding to this thread. It is never easy when your pet isill and you guys are helping tremendously to keep our nerves calmed!!! You guysare great!!!



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Thanks,

Cindy
 
Based on that pic....I think I would use injectable Penicillin. I use Pen G which is a combination of Procaine and Benzathine. It is a cattle drug and is available without prescription. It is safe only when injected. Sub-q is better and the drug should be buffered with fluids to help prevent burning and potential skin abscesses. But I would certainly discuss this course of treatment with your vet.

Randy
 
Yeah, it looks pretty typical for what I've seen of rabbit syphillis. Pen G would be a good treatment.
 
Thank you for the responses Randy, Tonyshuman, and Angieluv!

With the help of your feedback, I have decided that instead of performing the culture and sensitivity test with the current Vet, I will opt for another opinion. I have scheduled an appointment with a new vet for Tuesday morning.


I am thinking that if the next Vet prescribes Pen-G without a culture and sensitivity test, then that is acceptable/great. If she prescribes anything else, I will first opt for a culture and sensitivity test at that point.Does this sound reasonable? (I would be tempted to try the Pen-G ourselves from the farm store if we had experience with it, but we don't.)

I am under the impressionthat this is not a dire emergency and thatCongo should be okay if he does not start receivingtreatment until Tuesday (hopefully). Congo is still eating and outputting as normal (and we will continue to closely monitor this). IfI amincorrect here and anyone feels differently, please let me know!

One last question, that may have been answered and I didn't quite understand... Is there a separate test from the culture and sensitivity testthat would be conducted to check for syphilis?

Thanks!

Cindy

P.S. Anyone need$30 worth ofAlbon, unopened?! :laughsmiley:









 
If you are serious about the Albon....I know several rescues that will be very appreciative since we do use that drug in some other species.

There is a test for syphillis but most of us treat based on presentation....and that certainly presents as syphillis.

Randy
 
Randy, If you can use the Albon send me a PM. I will be happy to donate it to your rescue!

Then hopefully the next Vet will agree with the presentation of syphilis and treat accordingly, with Pen-G (andwithout theexpense of the additional testing).


 
So that I will be prepared for tomorrow's Vet visit, I have two more questions...

Is there an alternative drug/treatment, other than Pen-G, that is acceptable for treating rabbit syphilis?

What is the correct dosage and time-interval for Pen-G shots for a 2-3 pound rabbit?

Sorry to be such a pain with all these questions. I have been asking so many that I'm even beginning to annoy myself with it!! :D




 
HI am not sure of the dosage for such a small rabbit, but when we treated a few rabbits for rabbit syphilis, we were told to give the Penicillin G once a week for three weeks. My vet also advised me that, relative to the doses of Penicillin G for other rabbit maladies, the amount for rabbit syphilis is rather low.

Penicillin G or any antibiotic may be hard on the GI tract and lead the rabbit to not eat as much as it should. I would also ask your vet for some Benebac (probiotic) to administer in conjunction with the antibiotic. You can also get Benebac in small tubes at the pets store, near where they sell the Kitten Milk Replacement (KMR). The nice thing about getting it from the vet is that they are likely to have it in a larger tube that is easier to administer from.
 
Just for information....most vets do not dose Penicillin correctly due to using old information. Pen G contains two components....Procaine and Benzathine (at 150K units per ml). One is a fast acting drug that is in and out quickly. The other takes longer to reach working blood levels but remains effective for a longer period of time. I dose Penicillin once a day for 3 days and then every other day. That way the Procaine aspect starts working quickly and the Benzathine will be at working levels within 72 hours on this dosing protocol. And again, Penicillin or related drugs are safe only when injected.

Bene Bac is much easier to administer as a powder. It can be mixed in formula for babies or sprinkled on greens for older animals. Some large pet stores carry the powder or there are several on-line compainies that offer it....Chris' Squirrels offers it at about the best price you can find.

Randy
 
I have read that the correct dose for a rabbit under 5lb is 150K units given every other day. This is made by diluting the solution you buy, which is 300K units/mL, 1:1 with a sterile saline/lactated Ringer's etc.

This reference talks about treating abscesses with bicillin, but the dosing is correct for syphilis too. http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

Penicillin is the best way to treat syphilis in most animals. Pen G aka bicillin is good for treating rabbits with syphilis due to the long and fast-acting components of the formulation, like Randy said.

A note about the probiotics--my Tony and Muffin think the gel form is a treat and will eat it straight from the tube, but will not eat greens that have been sprinkled with the powder form. Gel is sometimes better depending on your bunnies. If you will have to force them to eat it, the powder may be easier to dissolve in water and give via oral feeding syringe.
 
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