Sad night last night

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marie_martin

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Location
, Mississippi, USA
My holland lop doe gave birth several days agoand she has been showing some cage aggression. So I have been lettingher out of the cage before I attempt to check the babies. Last night, Ilet her out, and she seemed really aggitated. She came around me andwas hissing and like trying to attack me. So I put my hand on her backand held her down and rubbed her a minute to calm her. She seemed ok,but I did not want to sit in the floor and my back to her to check thebabies. So I took the nest box out of the cage and set it up on thecouch by me. I got the babies out one at a time and put them on thecouch by me and checked them over. She hopped up on the couch and Ifigure she is coming to check them out. She sort of walked over themand was sniffing my leg. I figure the babies are trying to nurse underher and she got spooked or something. All of a sudden, she startedkicking and growling and kicked two of them accross the couch. One wasbleeding like crazy. I jump up and sort of grab and push her off thecouch away from the rest. I don't think there was anything I could havedone to save him. She punctured her claw through his chest and theblood was pumping out. It only lived about a minute. I feel terrible.She has never acted like that. I did get them out like that before andshe just jumped up there, licked them and nursed them right there onthe couch. I put them back in the box and put them up with her. She hasnot shown aggression outside her cage before. What if one of themscares her again or she gets startled when she is in with them? Thatwas the most awful thing I have ever seen. I love her but I was soangry with her at that point. I know it is my fault, I should not havegotten them out, but I just want to make sure all is well. I am use togoats and they want you to rub them and the babies come right up to youand I will not be breeding her again. Ever.

Sorry if graphic. It just has hurt my soul to see that. That poor baby.

Marie
 
I'm so so sorry for that.

Unfortunately it is common for tragedies to happen with kits. I have heard of things like this before, but never experienced it.

When you were putting your hands in, were you stroking her first? so that you had her smell on you?

I am always very warey with my does unless I am totally confident thatthey are feeling safe, as to whether I get the kits out of not. I justtend to smother myself in her smell, and then have a fiddle in the nestto check all is well.

Did anything happen before this to spook her? Maybe something she perceived as predator? or a loud noise?

It might be worth getting this post moved to the rabbitry forum, orposting about it in there to see if anyone can give you moreexperienced advice than I can give.

I'm so sorry that you had to deal with that.
 
I'm so sorry to hear that *hugs*

I don't know if this is true with rabbits, but sometimes they will killtheir young if they have health problems. It's probably not that, butjust an idea.

Was this her first set of babies?
 
I would not know how to move a post, but I canpost over there too. I don't recall any loud noise, she was just actingreally off the whole time. She has been having cage aggression sinceshe was bred. Even when she is not bred, but more so since.But once she is out of the cage, she is usually fine. When she had thekits, it was extrememly hot out so I moved her and the kids into thehouse. I figured that would stress her, but knew that she was a firsttimer and wanted to watch her and the kits. Like I said, she has been alittle aggressive if you go into the cage, but if you put your handover her and rub her she will calm down. Then I let her come out of thecage and hop around the room while I check the kits. I only took thebox out last night because of how she was acting, I did try loving onher first but she was not having it. So I picked the box up and sat onthe couch with the babies while mom hopped around. There may have beena noise that I did not notice? The babies were laying on the couchbeside the box, I was just about to put them back in when she hopped upthere. I figured she would lick them and let them nurse and then Iwould get her and them and put them up, just as we did the other time.I just clipped her nails and let me tell you it did not matter. Hernail completely punctured that baby. One hole. It was awful. I put myfinger over the hole and it did not matter. It was coming out the nosetoo. Awful!! Thank god she did not injure the second one she kicked. Ifigure it was behind the other one and the first one took the brunt ofthe blow. Dang it makes me sick. I feel so guilty. DH says I should notbecause had I not been out there and gotten some of them off the cagefloor they would have all died. But I don't feel that way. I pray therest are ok. I am putting them back outside and leave them be, let momtake care of them. Guess I am too hands on for rabbit breeding.

Marie
 
It sounds like she is very territorial (the cage aggression) and maybe she perceived a threat to her territory.

I don't necessarily think you are too hands on for rabbit breeding, buteach doe is different. I had one that let me hold the kits right fromday one, but I would never try that (personally) with a first time mumbecause you never know how they will react.

I don't think you should blame yourself, but I also know that metelling you that won't help unless you believe it yourself. Buthopefully in time you will come to realise that you did all you couldfor that kit, and you are looking after them to the best of yourability.

Only mods, I believe, can move posts, maybe you could PM someone and ask them?
 
Thanks guys. I know I will get past it but rightnow I am sick at my stomach. I just don' understand what happened. Itwas so quick. I don't understand why she is being so aggressive. I ammoving her back outside with them and hopefully she will calm down.Maybe the noises of the house are too mucha and she just does not feelsafe and can't let down. I just don't want a repeat of that. I won't beremoving the kits again like that. I will just have to look at themfrom a distance. But how am I suppose to get them use to human contactso that they are not aggressive? Should I let her out of the cage tohop around outside before trying to handle them, or just leave them be.

Marie
 
Maybe leave them to settle for a bit?

I didn't hold my Sky or Moon until they were about 14 days old, when wehad to get them out to change the nest area. These two bunsbecame two of the friendliest and most humanised buns we own. But it isnot necessarily how early you start holding them, it is also related tohow you are when you hold them, how used to you they are, etc.

I used to talk to them when they didn't have their eyes open, and Iwent out everyday a few times a day and talked to them in their nest(as well as holding them for a short time each day from 14 days up)until they came out of their nest. They used to wriggle when they heardmy voice. Not anyone elses, just mine. Maybe you could just try talkingto them, not necessarily even opening the hutch, just talk to your doesoothing her, things like that. The babes will pick up good vibes, butequally, if the doe is scared and agressive they will probably sensethat too.

So, if that was me, I would leave them to settle for a bit. I don'teven know if I would do the upheavel of moving them outside. Hopefullysomeone more experienced can help with that bit.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. I am just concernedthat being inside is making her more aggressive. Maybe the everydaynoises and so forth. Maybe she would be more comfortable outside at thebarn with her mate in the next cage and no humans around. I don't wantto upsed her either but I dont want her to be in there feeding them andfreak out again and the same thing happen.

Marie
 
I totally understand that. It's clear all you want is the best for you bunny and the kits :)

Hopefully someone with a wider knowledge of breeding will be able to help you with regards to what to do.

How long has she been in for? Unsettled bunnies can struggle to lookafter kits and stuff. Would she be in the same hutch if she wentoutside?
 
She has been in since she gave birth on Monday.And last night was the onlly time she has acted that aggressive. Shehas been a little protective over the cage, and I have tried to begentle, and pet her first and so forth. Usually once she is out of thecage, she does not go back and did not seem concerned with what wasgoing on with the kits. For some reason last night she was concerned.She would be in the same hutch I would just move it outside. I carriedher and DH carried the hutch when we brough it in. We do have some babychicks in the house and maybe they are getting louder and it makes herthink there is something trying to get the babies?? I dont know. I amgoing to have her fixed and hope that it improves her cage aggression.I have children and they can't even pet her unless I get her out of thecage and hold her. She is young, under a year. Will she outgrow some ofthat as she gets older? Will spaying her help? My other bunny, themale, is so laid back and calm and has never shown one minute ofaggression. Never. Is that a male thing?

Marie
 
First of all, I want you to know that youshouldn't blame yourself. Accidents happen all the time. I've had doesjump into their nestboxes very quickly and injure a baby (and yes, I'velost babies that way). It has only happened once or twice but ithappened because a doe got scared and went to protect her babies anddidn't realize she'd hurt one.

I'm so sorry that you experienced this. Things like this do happen andI have does that I would not breed due to their temperament. Perhapsthat is the situation here - however, many times the most "aggressive"does are the best mamas for taking care of the kids.

I do think it is important for the kits' sake that you check themeveryday - once their eyes start to open - you need to make sure thatthey don't get infections and some mamas aren't the best about keepingtheir eyes cleaned (the infection can start before their eyes open).You also need to check their butts as they start eating food to makesure they don't have diaherrea - and of course, you will wantto socialize them.

Anyway, I am sorry that this happened to you. I am a bit used to thingslike it happening once in a while - but it always hurts to see ithappen.

Peg
 
So how should I go about it? Do you think Ishould move her back out to the barn and just check on them out there?I live in the South and it is about to really warm up here. She appearsto be taking great care of them. So maybe she is just being a goodmama, and I am sure that like with goats, you get use to some loss butit always hurts. How would I go about checking on them if she continuesto act that way? Do I get her out of the cage and let her exercisewhile I check them? Let DH hold her while I do it. Should I leave herin there while I do it to show her I am not hurting them? I am scaredto handle them now. I don't want to be responsible for any more dying.I am use to goats and they have kids and they are never aggressivetoward me or try to keep me away from the babies. It is just different.I called the vet and I have to wait until the babies are weaned beforeI can have her spayed. So I have to live with the hormones for 6-7weeks. Help! What do I do. I love her and I want to be able to hold herand love her. I don't want to be afraid of her. I hope all the babiesare boys. Do any of you have aggression problems with boys. Thanks somuch for your help.

Marie
 
First of all - I have does that are little lovebugs...even when they have a litter. So don't go hoping that all of thebabies are bucks...ok? It IS possible to have a sweet natured doe.

I don't remember the whole situation about how and where you got her - so if I'm not making sense here - just skip this..ok?

I have a doe that is mean as can be - because she's scared. I've beenworking with her and trying to get her used to me. She no longer lungesat my hand and lets me pet her - although she scrunches herself down ina scared bunny position. Yesterday I decided it was time to take herout of her cage and hold her.

BIG MISTAKE. She fought and fought and jumped on the floor twice to getaway from me. By the time I got her back in the cage - she wasbreathing so hard I thought she was going to have a heart attack - andI was out of breath too. We went backwards several steps in her"training" by my eagerness to hold her.

Why am I telling you about her? Because she was raised outdoors in acage where she was fed and maybe petted once in a while - but herbreeder had several breeds and rabbits and didn't "socialize" her as ayoung rabbit. Because of this, she has a very hard time now.

I have other does that might get a bit cage aggressive as a mama (wecall a couple of them "Ninja mommy" and "Bunzilla" and stuff like that)- but they are sweethearts when they don't have babies. They'reaggressive BECAUSE they're good mamas and protecting their young.

I'm not sure if moving her outside is the best move or not - mine areall kept indoors due to the Texas heat. So I can't speak to the movingoutdoors or keeping her indoors situation.

However, I think that those babies NEED to be handled by you on a regular basis so that they don't become like my Minnie...

I would let her out to play and then you handle the babies. Maybe pether first as you get her out of the cage so that her babies will smelllike her and not you. Let her go run and play and get some exercisewhile you check them out....and I would definitely hold them for a bitbefore their eyes open so they get used to your smell and will not runfrom you when their eyes are open.

But I would definitely pet the babies and play with them as their eyesopen. She may become less aggressive once they're out of the nestbox abit - many of my does are like, "ok...please come get them from me fora bit.." when they get to that point as they'll start crawling on mamaand sleeping on her back and stuff like that.

Peg
 
Thanks for the info. I got her when she wasabout 3-4 mo. old. She was not the friendliest but not at allaggressive. We probably should have worked more with her and tried tohandle her more but she just seemed to be one that was not crazy aboutcuddles, you know. She did not start to show actual aggression untilshe was about 6-7 mo. old. She is in a cage out in the barn with plentyof air and the sun comes in under that side but not on the cage. I havea fan that I use when it is really hot. I am in Mississippi. The buckis in a cage next to hers and they cuddle through the wire all thetime. I bred her once before and she was a bit cranky, shehad one baby, we think it was still born. After she had the baby, shewas better, but not completely relaxed. We rebred her once more andhonestly were not planning to breed her again. We just wanteda few more babies that we could handle and get use to us andmaybe be more snuggle bunnies. We did not find any locally in sheltersand were sort of scared of getting another aggressive rabbit, sofigured having one litter here would be better. Anyway, we rebred herand she had these babies on Monday. There were 7 but two did not makeit. One she had on the cage well after I thought she was done and hadran to the house. One died in the box, I think she was standing on itwhile giving birth, not sure. Last night she was totally freaking out.Would not let me near the cage was jumping up on it and so forth. Ishould have known something would happen. She was too wound up. I planto do what you say and handle the babies. I will just make sure she isout of the cage before doing so. I just think she could hop aroundoutside (in the pen) while I did so and that would help her. Right nowshe is having to hop around the tv room, which I am not letting anyoneuse for now. Just the bunnies and the baby chicks on opposite ends. Doyou think the chicks could be startling her? They can get loud. Maybeshe thinks they are a hawk or something?? I can't put them outside yet,they are too small. Oh I am so confused. I dont want to do the wrongthing. Thanks for you help. Really.

Marie
 
If you normally keep her outside and onlybrought her in after having the babies then she is probably made worseby the house noises, I am quite lucky as none of my does are thataggressive i have a couple that get grumpy the first couple of weeks oftheir pregnancy and 1 that needs a few days after kindling to calm downshe is very nest protective and a brill mamma.

I have also found the does prefer my husband there is only acouple thatprefer me to him but the bucks prefer me. We had a doe that bit herbaby's foot and threw it off the couch it didn't survive either andthat was because she was not that happy in the house. Its all alearning curve and Peg has great advice the more you do it the more youlearn.

Try not to let it get to you to much i know its hard but a lot of thetime they could be happy like your goats about handling them
 
I am sorry to hear you lost one of the kits.Things like this are an unfortunate part of raising rabbits. The doeprobably did not mean to kill her kit. It was just a sad side effect ofher jumping on them. In the future, I would keep the kits seperate fromthe mom while you are handling them until the are old enough to becoming out of the nest box on their own. Sometimes watching the babiesout of the nest box will really stress a good mom out and she willattempt to put them back. But since rabbits are armed with claws andsharp teeth- they have no way to get them back in the nest box withoutinjuring them.



I was given a mean doe once. She was a beautiful fuzzy lop- had all theother traits you could want in a doe besides temperament. I usuallydon't keep a nasty rabbit, but, since this doe was given to me as agift- I decided to breed her anyways. I knew that I didn't want herbabies to get her nasty temperament. I left the babies in with heruntil their eyes opened. As soon as their eyes opened, I took thebabies and her nest box out of her cage and kept them inside with me. Itook them out to her to be nursed, but that's all they interacted withtheir mom. I worked with the babies a lot, handling them, petting themall over, turning them on their backs, etc... These babiesturned out to be a lot nicer than their mom. I ended up keeping one ofthe does and she would get very grumpy when she had her own litter (sothat must be pretty hardwired genetically from the mom), but the restof the time she allowed me to handle her however I needed to withoutbeing aggressive. She never was a snuggler- but was loads better thanher mom. The point of all that was.... they way you handle these babiescan have a large impact on their future personalities!



Good luck with the rest of the litter! Keep us updated.



-Lindsay
 
Thanks so much everyone. I really appreciate it.I am going to get those chicks out of that room first and get her moresecluded, maybe another room. I will be cautiousand make sure she is out of the cage while I handle the kits. I amgoing to have her spayed and hopefully that will help I am going towork on getting something built so that she could live inside, like theNIC's I have seen here, hopefully she wont be too much trouble tolitter train. I will search the forum for more info on that. I agreethat the more I handle the kits and get them use to humans the better.But I am not going to give up on here either. Even if she never lets mehold her, I will keep her and take care of her. I will not let any ofmy animals end up in shelters. I rescued several of my unregisteredgoats from sorry breeder/owners and I can't stand the idea of that. Notsure how DH will feel having her in the house. He has lots ofallergies, so I don't know if that is for sure. If not, I will stillbuild a better cage for her where she will get more exercise even whenI can't let her outside. I am going to get her more toys to play withand maybe that will help as well. Thanks so much for all the help. Iwill let you know how it is going.


Marie
 
That sounds like a brilliant plan :)

Keep us updated and good luck.
 
Marie,

This is the way I feel about my girl Minnie. She is the one I wroteabout above. Early this year as I was getting ready forNationals, I stated on my site that I was going to be selling her. Shehas ok type - not the best - not the worst. She keeps a nice mane too.

But the more I thought about it - and watched her - the more I realizedshe was so aggressive towards humans AND other rabbits - because shewas scared. To make her go to another rabbitry would be cruel to her.Many breeders would "put her down" 'cause she is "mean". But she's notmean......she's scared and she needs love.

So she will live her life here with us. Will I breed her again? I amconsidering it...I haven't decided. She was an EXCELLENT mama and herkits are just sweeties.

But she has a home here for as long as she lives - or we live (whoevergoes first). Many others won't understand how to deal withher.

What I've been finding over the last year or so is that the bunniesthat are like this - not so much aggressive as in "mean" but aggressiveas in - territorial OR scared - when they start to learn to like you -they become heart bunnies and very very sweet.

It just takes time and patience.

Peg

P.S. It sounds like you have a good plan in place.

marie_martin wrote:
But I am not going togive up on here either. Even if she never lets me hold her, I will keepher and take care of her.
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