RIP Need some advice! - Head tilt

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idk7

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Mar 22, 2010
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Location
Salem, Wisconsin, USA
Ok I have a question if anyone would know. Two weeks ago today my rabbit had 2 seizures and the vet confirmed it was pasteurella. After 4 days of him being in the vet, he is home and I'm giving him 2 different kinds of meds. One he gets once a day and the other is twice a day. He cannot stand and walk. He has to lay down, but he is doing much better, he can lift his head, hes eating and drinking normally. So my question is, does anyone know if he will recover from this? Will he be able to walk again and play like a normal bunny? How long does a process like this take? If anyone can give any info on these questions, it would be great! The vet is telling me that if he doesn't stand or start to walk then he needs to put put down and what aggravates me is that she's only giving him 2 weeks to recover and I have an appt on wednesday and I'm so scared to go because I want to give him more time than what it sounds like what the vet wants to do. I'm looking for more insight on this since I'm new to this whole situtation.



My bunny is about 3 yrs old, male, lionhead, weighs about almost 4 pounds.
 
i feel your pain of this dilema,..all rabbits have the-opportunist parasite,for pasturella and coccidia--in the gi tract.//the immune system gets greatly impacted,,and must be beefed up,soas the rabbits immune system can fight ,..illness -(pain)-brings on stress,which doesnot help..(antibiotics)-like-baytril/azithromycin,..is generally given,,and something for pain like metacam....lots water(bottle)and-bowl,,critical care--unless the bun can chew timothy/orchard grasses,,some pellets....working with the bun alot for at least 2 weeks will give you more insight,,for improvements--and we pray for a speedy recovery...i know its hard but try not to despair--just heed the above info and keep us informed...sincerely james waller
 
He doesn't like critical care, they gave me some to take home, but he doesn't want it here. I'm giving him veggies everyday which he loves. I've tried pellets but he didnt seem interested in them so I didnt bother giving him any. He doesn't like timothy hay so I'm giving him the alfafa which I know isn't that great for him, but that is the only hay he will eat. He acts like a regualr bun just that he can't walk. He gets around in his cage by using his back legs to push himself around. I feel so bad for him but I just don't want to give up in 2 weeks like the vet is making it sound like what she wants me to do. It's not only investing the money that was a very large amount, he's like my child and I want to make him comfortable as possible, but I don't want him to suffer either if he's not happy. unfortunately I don't know if he is unhappy and I wish I knew because it would make my decision so much easier. I wish I knew how long it would take him to get better and act like a bun. I just don't think that 2 weeks is enough time to say he lives or he gets put down. Does anyone know of a sufficient time or has had this type of thing happen and they do start hopping around like a normal bunny?
 
Does he have head tilt? Is his head tilted and he has trouble balancing and has rolling fits?

I have not heard of Pasturella causing seizures. It is a type of bacterial and will cause infections. The only way I could think of it causing seizures would be an infection of the brain.

What medicines are your rabbit on? Pasturella infections can be cured, but often need aggressive treatment and the proper antibiotics in high doses.

And, how did she confirm it was pasturella? Was some testing done?

Don't let your vet put him to sleep until you have at least one other opinion as well. Find a second rabbit savvy vet to take him too for a second opinion.

-Dawn
 
He does have a head tilt, but he's not rolling.The meds he is on is Baytril twice a day and Panacur which is once a day.

She says it was pasteurella because he was leaning to one side and his eye being infected, but he never had a runny nose or you couldn't tell by sight he had an ear infection. She thinks a parasite might have something to do with it, but she was leaning more towards pastuerella. But when I read up on it, sites don't saymuch about seizures and they have runny eyes and nose puss like in their ears.

The strange thing is that when he was leaning on one side when I took him in 2 weeks ago was the side that he had problems with his eye, when I picked him up at the vet he was laying on the other side.

She took a ear swab, but she didn't sound too sure of because it was either pastuerella or the parasite. Now when I was reading online the parasite one is more prone to having the seizures and that. His symptoms that I read for pasteurella didn't seem to match with what he has. I mean a couple, but not like it did with the parasites.
 
I second aurora. Get a second opinion before a big decision is made.

I'm not hugely savvy on Pasturella, but I also have never heard of it causing seizures. What are his other symptoms? Snuffles? Crusty nose, head tilt, conjunctivitus, blocked tear ducts? Any abscesses (these are not uncommon with Pasturella)?
What tests did the vet do? Often rabbits with test positive for Pasturella, so I've heard, because many carry the bacteria in their bodies, but it is just under control due to a strong, healthy immune system which contains it and prevents it from damaging the body. Even with a positive test this might not fully confirm that it is Pasturella causing the symptoms, so further tests should be done in some cases.

Good luck to you.

Again I totally agree with aurora; find a rabbit savvy vet for a second opinion. That time limit of 2 weeks does not seem right me at all- I've read that sometimes medication will need to be given for up to a month or even longer to help the infection. Can someone back me up on this? Or is this a misconception of mine? If I'm right then your vet does NOT seem very rabbit savvy at all!

Jen
 
Okay you just answered my post as I was typing :).

From your recent post, I emphasise to find perhaps an alternative vet for this case. Maybe one with more experience with Pasturella?

Jen
 
The only symptom that I know of that he has is the head tilt and before he had an abcess on his eye, but it happened here and there. She thought that his overgrown teeth were causing that problem, but the ye prob was still there.

You said something about the meds, taking them for a month. That is what she told me! But it hasn't been a month. She told me last week, 6 days after I picked him up from the vet that if he wasnt doing better then he would have to be put down. I told her he's made good progress those last 6 days, well to me he has. He doesn't need to always have his head leaning on something, he can hold it up a little but, not too long but he's trying and he's moving around his cage. Thats when she said if he doesn't show more improvement that he would have to be put down.

She didn't take any blood as far as I can remember. She said she gave him IV's and started the meds. His first night there, he had another seizure after eating and taking the meds. She was going to take blood to check to see if it was the parasite, but she didnt because even if he did test positive for the parasite there was nothing they could do even if they did know, but she still was leaning towards pastuerella.

So what concerns me is the fact she told me he would have to be on meds for a month or so, but tells me last week he doesn't improve by this week, he'd have to be put down. That's what upsets me. I'm glad I found this site. I need others that have bunnys and may have experienced this issue to help me out here.
 
We have many members who have rabbits recover from head tilt.

You will need a much more aggressive treatment than oral Baytril. You should look into injections of Penicillin combined with an oral antibiotic like azithromiacin.

Would you like me to add more detail to your title so that others with head tilt experience will know to look at your thread?

-Dawn
 
If you could that would be great! I didn't know what to put for the subject line. I just wanted my post out there so I can get some kind of response from someone. I think I need to find another vet to get another opinion on this too since you are saying that I need a more aggressive approach. If I would stick with the meds now, would it just take longer then if I would have him on other meds?
 
The vet doesn't seem to be very optimistic about this case, and that's a bad sign. Bunnies can recover from head tilt, abscessed infections, all of these things.

Here are WI vets: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11639&forum_id=9
and IL vets (since you're close to the border):
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11599&forum_id=9

I am not a vet, but I think he needs an x-ray done of his head to see the abscess on his eye you mentioned, and to determine if it's related to his tooth roots. Injectible and oral antibiotics should be given, preferably injectible penicillin g procaine/benzathine or Convenia and oral zithromax. Meclizine can be given to reduce the discomfort of being tilted (it's an anti-nausea, anti-seasickness drug), and some pain meds are probably needed too. Blood work is also essential.

I think that what may be happening is that the seizures are caused by a large infected abscess near the ear--it's causing his balance issues, and putting pressure on the brain (due to its location), which is causing the seizures. There may also be an abscess behind the eye that's putting pressure on the brain as well. X-rays are really important in this situation.

Good luck!
 
It all depends on exactly what bacteria you are fighting. Some may be sensitive to Baytril, and will eventually go away with a long dosing period. However, Baytril is not really effective against Pasturella, and would need a different antibiotic that Pasturella is sensitive to.

There really is no way to tell what antibiotic will be effective against the bacteria with out doing a culture and sensitivity test.

I'll change your title for you right now :)

-Dawn
 
She did do x-rays and all she said about the x-rays was that his back teeth will need to be filed again and she said the overgrown teeth maybe causing the abcess, but I don't believe that because he had his teeth done before and the abcess of the eye was still there. Now that he has been on these meds his eyes has not been tearing at all. But that is all she said about the x-rays. Nothing about his brain or anything to what you said.

But I am happy to report also, since 2 weeks ago as far as I know he hasn't had any seizures(knock on wood).

Thanks for the web links. I will look at them :)
 
The culture test would be to essentially "grow" some of the bacteria in a contained environment in agar jelly to see exactly what it is etc.
That should definately be done if Pasturella is suspected. It's routine, I'm sure.

Great news about the no seizures for two weeks! That's a very positive sign!

Good luck and hope he keeps getting better, and your vet takes some more thorough testings

Jen
 
They haven't even mentioned any of these testings, so makes me wonder why they haven't said anything about them. Why she felt that they wouldn't be needed. Just makes me think of how loyal or how much they care. I'm not made of money, but I would like all options possible given to me so I can think of what I want to do. I told her when I first got their 2 weeks ago and said do whatever you have to do, but maybe she don't know everything, but at the same time you want someone that knows a lot. He has an appointment Wednesday and I don't think I'm going to take him. I don't really want to hear what she has to say.
 
Have you had a look on here for some of the rabbit-savvy vets in your area? There are some great links if you look through the home page, I can't think exactly where they are but they are quite easy to find. Maybe take him somewhere else on Wednesday, explain your situation and why you have come to a different, more rabbit-savvy vet, and ask their opinion.
I'm sure whatever he has is curable etc. but it needs to be dealt with as soon as possible, so the sooner you can get to a more knowledgable vet, the better :)

Jen
 
Well I did talk to another vet and they said what they are doing is right but they reccomend that if my bunny gets worse to get cat scans done and see if they're is another problem involved. The meds will take a while but its normal they say. So I feel a little better.
 
I hope everything goes well for you both :). I think you should get alternative testing done anyway- earlier diagnosis is always advantageous, and it sounds like perhaps there are other underlying causes to his head tilt and seizures, and I wouldn't trust your vet anyway.

I'm glad the other vet said that a month or so is normal for recovery on meds- if he is improving already then that is a good sign.

Jen x
 
idk7 wrote:
She did do x-rays and all she said about the x-rays was that his back teeth will need to be filed again and she said the overgrown teeth maybe causing the abcess, but I don't believe that because he had his teeth done before and the abcess of the eye was still there. Now that he has been on these meds his eyes has not been tearing at all. But that is all she said about the x-rays. Nothing about his brain or anything to what you said.

But I am happy to report also, since 2 weeks ago as far as I know he hasn't had any seizures(knock on wood).

Thanks for the web links. I will look at them :)

This makes sense to me. The roots of a bunny's teeth continually grow, and when the top parts don't meet correctly and wear on each other, the top parts grow those sharp points that have to be filed down. The even more important thing here, is that not only do the top parts grow out of control of the teeth aren't wearing each other down enough, the roots also grow out of control. This can cause them to penetrate into other tissues in the area, usually the jaw bone, nasal cavities, eye sockets, etc. Bacteria travel down the tooth to where the root is, and because the roots can cause open sores where they end, the bacteria get into those sores and infect them. The infected tooth roots become pockets of infection, called abscesses. These can swell up really big and put pressure on all the structures around there. This is why a runny nose or runny eye can be a symptom of tooth problems--the pressure on the back of the eye or inside of the nose causes irritation, which leads to runniness being produced.

The fact that the Baytril seems to be helping is encouraging, but it is pretty unlikely that it will do the job all on its own. He needs to be on it for at least 14 days. If he still has symptoms after 14 days, I would continue with the Baytril, but add another antibiotic on top of that, like Bicillin. Some of the bacteria in the abscess may be susceptible to Baytril, and some may not--they could be resistant to Baytril and need a different antibiotic to be killed. A culture and sensitivity test would tell you which antibiotics the bacteria are susceptible to, but due to the location of the abscess, getting a sample isn't the easiest. I think it's ok that the vet hasn't done that test yet.

There are a lot of reasons for seizures. Pressure on the brain, infection of the brain, brain damage, lack of nutrients in the brain, poisoning, and genetic conditions. I would guess that the seizures were caused by the abscess, although since they're gone, and the abscess seems to be shrinking based on what you said, it doesn't really matter what caused them unless they come back. It's hard to see some of the structures of the skull in the area of the teeth/eyes/brain, so it's not surprising that the vet didn't mention it. She probably didn't have a clear enough picture to see whether the abscess was putting pressure on the brain or not.

It is true that it takes a long time for the meds to work. I'm glad you got a second opinion.

I'll post some other good info on abscesses and treatment:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm
Library Article on Abscesses
Library Article on Teeth (Especially look at the videos from Fast Up On Rabbit Care--they're great)
Library Article on Eye Problems
Library Article on Seizures

Nice picture of rabbit tooth roots and where they're located in the skull in relation to other structures:
x-ray-500.jpg

 

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