Resolved!-not eating, drooling, not pooping...

[MILU]

I have a male white rabbit, 5 years old. Usually eats dark leaves, bunny food (pellets), some wood, sunflower seeds (not much of the last), some banana and apple pieces daily.

He often has eye discharge (not now, but always has it) and bad breath.

He stopped eating about 5 days ago.
Now he's drooling excessively, breath smelled like acetone (got a little better after we started feeding him bunny food juice with a syringe), almost don't poop at all, perhaps for not eating solids anymore. He tries to give a bite in his food and stops there without trying again for the day and night. Eating seems to hurt him and he refuses even the liquid food given with the syringe.

He has some sort of nodule under his chin. It's painful,he doesn't want anyone touching it (I found it out while cleaning his drool). The vet said that wouldn't cause the drooling, etc., but didn't examine it to know what it can be.
His feces were examined and at least the thing the vet suspected it could be is ruled out. Lots of gas trapped in the intestine but he's being medicated for it.

I took him to all available vets in my town but nobody found any cause for his case, they're as puzzled as me and are welcoming help. They sent us home and told me to keep trying to feed the bunny.


I know my bunny wouldn't be acting like this from out of the blue without a reason, and that his symptoms seem classic for teeth problems. I'm posting the 2 x-ray pics here, perhaps someone will see something and help us?
THANKS, ANY HELP IS WELCOME!!

*** I, MYSELF, WONDER IF THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG ON THESE 2 SPOTS MARKED HERE:
(broken/bad tooth?)

 

[Fancy77]

Hi huni I am sorry u r having issues with your bunny and it must b scary, I am sorry that I am unable to help u but did want u to know your links didnt show up GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[pla725]

Sounds like you are on the right track. It is probably an abcess. Where are you located? I would get another opinion.

 

[SweetSassy]

pla725 wrote:

Sounds like you are on the right track. It is probably an abcess. Where are you located? I would get another opinion.

:yeahthat: I agree with pla725. Sounds like an abcess. I would get a second opinion.

 

[Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears]

I fixed the Pictures so the mods can view them and help you better. If you post where you located or your general location we can help you find a good Rabbit Savy vet.

 

[ra7751]

Your rabbit has a mandibular abscess secondary to a molar root impaction. Most vets do not know how to properlytreat this condition. The impaction can be caused bymany things including birth defects, trauma, Metabolic Bone Disease (a nutritional issue related to a deficiency in Vitamin D and/or calcium) or secondary to an infection among other things. An abscess contains anaerobic bacteria that will not respond to the drugs that most vets prescribe. I have developed a protocol using a specific version of Penicillin (safe only when used as an injectable) and Azithromycin (Zithromax). This is in combination with a full support protocol including pain management, hydration supplementation and modified feeding protocols. I have never opened a manidibular abscess. There are some cases in which the offending pre-molars or molars may need to be floated or removed (and in the case of extraction, the opposing teeth must be extracted). Oral surgery in a rabbit is a very delicate surgery and should not be attempted by an inexperienced vet. If a mandibular abscess is not aggressively treated, it will damage the basic structure of the jaw itself which can result in additional damage or can even reach the point of becoming septic...which is usually fatal. This issue needs aggressive treatment as quickly as possible by a skilled doctor.

I would also suspect the diet your rabbit is being fed may be contributing to dental issues. Hay should be the primary part of the diet. Hay is not only essential to a properly operating hind gut fermentation digestive system, hay is very chewy and that is what keeps the teeth worn to a proper length. The diet you have your rabbit on is not what is normally considered a proper diet.

Randy

 

[MILU]

I'm in Sao Paulo, BRAZIL.. not too many vets at all who take care of bunnies..... They didn't look at his teeth, only through the x-ray.. I don't even know if they know how to look at his teeth here. It's disappointing.
Thanks!!!

 

[MILU]

If only there was someone else I could find here to have a 2nd opinion!! That's why I'm posting this here, I'm sure you guys have more experience and understanding of cases like this!
Thanks!

 

[aurora369]

Randy would be your best bet for a second opinion. He works with these kinds of situations quite frequently. He is not a vet but works with some of the top vets in the USA through his rabbit and wildlife rescue.

See if your vet would be willing to take advice from someone out of the country. Someone may be able to get their vet to call your vet in Brazil to give advice over the phone.

Do you know if injectable penicillin is available for use with animals in Brazil? And if so, what form it is? There are several types and based on the type the frequency of dosing will change. You should also ask if Azithromycin is available in Brazil as well. It is an oral antibiotic normally given to children for ear infections, but very effective against the bacteria that causes most infections in rabbits.

Also, you should get as much fluids into your rabbit as possible. Oral if he'll take them, and if not you should get your vet to do sub-q fluids (under the skin) and show you how to administer them. Hydrating a rabbit is most important to getting their digestive system back on track.

Pain medication should also be given. I can imagine that eating would be very painful right now. See what your vet can get you for him.

-Dawn

 

[MILU]

Thanks everybody, and thanks, Dawn!!

I surely trust Randy and HOW I WISH I could have him treating my bunny!!!

I'll talk to my bunny's vet - the "best" I found here, and I'll ask about the penicillin, etc. Thanks for suggesting phone contact, it's really nice of you!
I LOVE my bunny and can't believe I'll have to watch him die without being able to help if the vets can't do anything.
Hopefully they will be able to!!

My bunny isn't yet dehydrated (according to the vet), and yesterday and today took a small shot with what must be vitamins. Yesterday took an antibiotic shot (I don't know what).

Despite all the bad symptoms, my bunny has a general "good" disposition for such a case, and tonight he even drank water and gave 3 bites on his food without being forced to. I thought that could be an improvement, but it seems like his condition isn't the kind of thing that will just "improve" without the right treatment, right? I'll look for someone who's able to help.

My vet recommended pineapple juice. Do you (and Randy) agree that's good? From now on, you're my real, primary vet , and the vet here will be like an assistant.

What you say makes way more sense than saying my happy bunny is "stressed" and sending us back home.

Thanks again!!!!

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

I'm so sorry to hear you're having to deal with possible teeth issues. Poor bunny. Give him a pat or two from me.

I agree that Randy is absolutely awesome and we are so honored to have him bless our forum.:inlove:

Let us know when you get to the vet and what the outcome is.

In the meantime, I got a thread from our Library here that might interest you a bit about teeth.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11901&forum_id=10

 

[MILU]

THANKS EVERYBODY!! YOU'RE ALL GREAT!

One more question I have is: how long would my bunny live in case I can't find anyone who's able to perform a surgery?

If I treat my bunny with the antibiotic Randy prescribed (if available, I hope it is!), injecting fluids in his mouth (like bunny food, dark leaves and fruit juice), and perhaps injecting some vitamins too, if needed - would he live long?

My vet told me bunnies' stomachs tend to "shut down" if they don't eat.
My bunny has eaten something like 4 bites of food yesterday (which was great comparing to the 4 preceding days) and even pooped some tiny little stuff, not too many, but something at least.

I wonder if this sort of liquid feeding could create an irreversible problem in his stomach/ intestine/ cecum by the lack of "solids", or if this is enough to keep things "working" at least for some time while we try to figure out what to do or if there really isn't ANYONE in the country who could save my beloved bunny, who even knows how to change tv channels and open doors...
He's a fighter and is still able to play some and may not even look sick sometimes. I admire his strength and will do my best to keep him well.
Thanks for all your help, I appreciate more than I could ever say!

 

[massie777]

If I where you and you couldn't find someone to do surgery on the rabbit I would really look into putting him to sleep. Abcesses with their teeth are really painful that is probably why he is not eating and if it was my bunny I wouldn't want to put him through that much pain for a long period of time. I am very sorry for your bunny, we had one in the rescue that had a toothroot abcess. She also was drooling and couldn't eat...we opted to put her to sleep just to stop the pain, surgery on rabbits teeth is really hard.
I hope the best for your rabbit and just think whats best for him in the long run.

 

[ra7751]

Surgery is rarely required....and many of these surgeries performed are not necessary and are the result of an inexperienced vet that doesn't really understand the nature of a rabbit abscess. I have a rabbit here, JoJo, that a forum member arranged to have transferred to me from another state. He had a huge mandibular abscess.....and if I remember correctly he was near being euthanized. I treated him by drugs only....no surgery. He has now been here a couple of years and is perfectly healthy. The abscess did not return as we got him on a proper diet to keep his teeth down. There may be some instances that a minor surgical procedure may be necessary but I haven't had to do any surgeries on the numerous cases involving an absess.

If your vet is willing....I can consult with him/her on my protocols via e-mail. I might have to make some adjustments on drugs depending on what is available there.....but it would be a learning experience for your vet.

Randy

 

[MILU]

I was thinking of putting my bunny to sleep IF NECESSARY.
Not by now, as he still is full of life and able to play, I hardly can believe he's so strong even with this problem! He can still find joy despite the pain. But IF I feel that he's suffering too much and no longer enjoys life, then I may have to shorten his cross...

BUT if Randy can give me/my vet advice on treatment/medicine, that would be WONDERFUL! That's the best news ever, since the discovery of penicillin!!

I don't think the vets in my bunny's clinic speak English though, but I do very well and can translate it all and show them Randy's emails in English along with my translation. They SURELY will be glad to acquire such AWESOME knowledge!
I don't have our vet's email now, but mine is [email protected] and I'll send you their email as soon as I have it.

Randy, I simply CAN'T thank you enough!! And I know ALL my thankfulness is nothing compared to the incredible work you do saving these bunnies. You're acquiring such good karma in life and you're such a good example of a praiseworthy person! I wish I could help animals and people who own them like you do!

 

[ra7751]

Talk to your vet....I need to know what antibiotics are available and what is licensed for veterinary use in Brazil. I am looking for a specific version of Penicillin....it's known by many names but most commonly Pen G or Bicillin. This drug contains two separate drugs that work in a little bit different ways. The two components are Procaine and Benzathine. See if these drugs are available either together in one compound or separately. If so, I need to know the concentration. Also see if Azithromycin (Zithromax) is available for animal use. Pain meds will also be necessary. I am looking for an NSAID...preferably Metacam (Meloxicam) or a similar drug although Metacam is readily tolerated when used properly. A narcotic like Buprenorphine (Buprenex) or a narcotic like drug like Tramadol will be needed. If a molar float is necessary, I can probably walk your vet thru this but it might not be necessary. If those drugs are available, I can send the dosing protocols directly to your vet written as a technical prescription that he/she will understand. As far as euthanasia....as long as your rabbit is eating and responding to you....and you are willing to treat him....go for it. You will need to learn how to do injections as the Penicillin is safe only as an injectable....and you will need to supplement hydration by sub-q during the treatments. Let me know on the drugs.

I live near a major vet school and some of the staff there have taught all over the world. I will see if they know a rabbit savvy vet, or a vet they can suggest that we can work thru, that is in your area. And something else to consider....I know there are a lot of horses in Brazil.....medically rabbits and horses are treated identically...so a horse vet might be of benefit if you can find one. The only difference in treating a rabbit and a horse is the size of the patient.

Randy

 

[MILU]

hi Randy

You're an amazing person, thanks for your help!!

About penicillin, I asked the vets at my bunny's clinic and - surprisingly - they didn't answer what kinds are available here, although I imagine there must be lots. I'll ask about the kinds you mentioned. I know we have pen G, I'll ask about it for vet use.

Vet said Azithromycin is available.

Today I asked them to give my bunny something for his pain and, for the 1st time in 6 days, my bunny ate ground leaves. I wonder why he wasn't given that before. I thought there was nothing available for bunny pain, and after you mentioned pain management I asked for something and it worked well!
Today he had the first "solids" to hit his stomach in all these days! I'm SO happy! Bad thing is he still has all the bloating and it makes horrible bubbling noises in his belly.

The medicine for pain (today for the 1st time) given is "Plasil" (metoclopramide chlorhydrate). Vet didn't tell me the dosage or if we'll continue this treatment yet. I'm not sure if my dr. used an animal version of it (if we have it at all). BTW, my bunny weighs 2.5 kilos (5.5 pounds). Vet also suggested dipyrone for pain.

My vet had prescribed 4 drops of dimeticone every 8 hours for the bloating for 3 days - human dimeticone. Today is the 3rd day, but as the bloating is still very bad, he told me to keep administering it. It doesn't seem to be working that well.

I asked my vet if he'd like to proceed with your protocol and he told me he thinks it's risky to give penicillin to a bunny with all this bloating and stomach/ intestine problems. He looked nervous, maybe because it's something he never tried, I'm sure he appreciates your input.
He doesn't seem to be a fan of penicillin usage for animals, but said he'll do it if I want. I TRUST YOU AND YOUR METHOD. And I LOVE the story about JoJo!
And I don't like that a bunny with a furball blockage I saw entering alive in my vet's clinic yesterday died… aw.. as well as lots of other pets I asked about. I know my vet and staff do a good job and they've got good references (mentioned Vittorio Capello) but I also take account of how many successful stories I heard of their patients.. I guess all the stories I heard had a sad end… so I'm more than willing to try something new. I travel often to the USA and I know your country has great researchers and great outcome!
My vet said he'll do your protocol if I want, and I do want to proceed! It's more than an honor to have your help!

Today my bunny's mouth was finally examined with a scope and the vet said he couldn't see well (low batterie charge for the scope light!!) but he believes the teeth are not hurting the tongue or cheeks, despite he said they're just a little bit bigger than they should - but not a real problem yet.

Thanks for suggesting a horse vet. I hope my bunny's case can be solved "easily" with your antibiotic protocol + support protocol for pain, feeding, hydration though! Thanks a lot for everythingand I'll get back to you with more answers asap.

Have a wonderful day!

:bunnydance:

 

[ra7751]

DO NOT give Metaclopramide. Penicillin is perfectly safe, much more so and more effective than other drugs, when given by injection. Metaclopramide is a gut motility drug and causes painful contractions in the GI. If there is an ulcer forming during a GI event, the contractions can perforate the ulcer and the outcome of that is not good. And rabbits don't get "fur balls". I suspect the other rabbit you mentioned was given Metaclopramide. Gut motility drugs are never used on any of my rabbits.

If your vet will do a search, I think there might be some clinical information on using Penicillin. The reason your rabbit's gut is bloated is due to the death and decay of the beneficial bacteria. This will also allow a harmful bacteria, usually Clostridium, to start growing. This bacteria can be fatal. I use a horse product, BioSponge, to bind and filter the enterotoxins produced by Clostridium. Monitor and respond to hydration levels....hydration before nutrition.

As far as the teeth, there are points, called "molar spurs" that I can see on the x-ray. I can also see an impaction in the rad. This usually leads to an abscess, which is what it sounds like you have on your hands. To treat without surgery, you have to use drugs that can penetrate the encapsulation and treat anaerobic bacteria. The Pen/Zithromax combo can do that safely and effectively. When injected, the Penicillin has no negative effect on the GI flora.

Hope you can convince your vet to look "outside the box" and properly treat your rabbit.

Randy

 

[MILU]

I wish I knew about Metaclopramide before!! It was administered today (PRAYERS!). No more for SURE.

Can you give me the dosages of Meloxicam / Metacam? I'll look for them. And perhaps another vet to administer it..? Mine agreed in doing what you say but I don't like the fact that every pet I asked about died. And I hate to say, but the place isn't too clean. Still it's the best we found. Not too many vets see bunnies here

Tell me more about BioSponge.. What's the composition? We may have it under a different name. Is there anything else I can use if I don't find it?

What can I use for feeding and hydration support if needed? My vet said my bunny doesn't need sub-q hydration. (no? :?)

I can see sharp spurs in the x-ray too. And someone pulling my bunny's ears too!! :X

Let me know what's the dosage and how the combination of Pen g/zithromax you use shall be administered and I'll make sure THIS is the treatment my bunny will receive. If we don't have them, I'll let you know, but I'm sure they're pretty well known (at least for humans), we may have a vet version.
Do you think we can wait for my bunny to eat more and feel better to start this treatment or this must be done asap? For how long will he need these shots? If we only manage the pain and he eats again, is that enough to have him "ok"?

And just out of curiosity: what causes the death of good bacteria in his gut? I asked that to my vet (before I met you and you told me it's a dental issue) the dialogue was:

me - why is there so much gas trapped there?
him - because he's not eating anymore
me - and why isn't he eating anymore?
him - because he's got gas trapped there.

I don't want to be unappreciative about my vet, but the more I hear from you, the more I find things I was told by him and his staff vets don't make much sense.. the other vet from the clinic who saw us told me she was puzzled and would research more 'cause she couldn't see a dental prob or a cause for my bunny's drooling. That's when I posted here and I'm glad I found you!

I can only thank you and believe you're a pioneer in a project of long distance saving lives through the web! I hope you get a reward for this like you deserve, like a Nobel or something. People like you deserve way more than that. ink iris:

** About the other bunny (who died): when I saw her (alive) they said they'd operate her to remove a furball from her intestine (stomach, whatever). May she rest in peace.. :tears2:

 

[tonyshuman]

The gas can be helped by giving some simethicone. It's easiest to give as a liquid baby form--infant gas drops--but tablets will work as well. If you can find the liquid, 1ml/hr for 3 hrs should help, along with very gentle tummy massages and a heating pad.

I know Randy gave you a good answer. I want to say that it's important the bunny gets pain meds--that may help him to want to eat. The gas will not go through well if there's nothing in there. Force feeding a pellet slurry may help get his gut going again as well.

Also, make sure he is getting enough fluids. I would say pineapple juice is ok in this situation, but only because he hasn't eaten in so long and it sounds like he's going into ketosis--where his body stops having enough glucose to run on, and it starts breaking down proteins and muscle (the acetone smell on his breath). The sugar in pineapple juice can make gas worse, but it may be important to get his blood sugar up to keep him from starving.

If possible, a probiotic would help. Even human acidophilus capsules will work--just don't use yogurt or any dairy product. Here we recommend Bene-Bac or Probios, which are for dogs/cats and horses respectively, but I doubt you'll be able to find them.

If at all possible, get the bunny to a vet school. This vet may be the best around, but he doesn't sound great. Surgery for furballs, plus how they're treating your guy, these tell me they're not up to date on rabbit medicine.