Really need some help :( crusty nose

[DizandDewi]

I'm in desperate need of help but i don't think anyone will know any more than i do

Dewi had a crusty nose, it was runny and sore and sometimes bled, he also had very runny eyes and for a while he was in such a bad way the vet suggested putting him to sleep. When he first developed a crusty nose we took him to our vets and they gave him antibiotics, which didnt help and the vet had no clue what it was, so for about 6monthes he was on and off the antibiotics eventually we decided we were just wasting money and left him to try and sort it out naturally, we bathed his nose regually with salt water and finally after about 18months -we tried changing bedding, food, hay everything but nothing helped and he recovered by himself.

Then 6months later Daisy developed crusty bits on her chin-we took her straight to the vet and a different vet looked at her and told us it was definatly rabbit syphilis and gave us the same antibiotics Dewi had had and told us to try and pick the crusty bits off, we did as she said but it just got worse, several more expensive vet visits and we decided to let her heal like Dewi as she was no where near as bad as he had been at this stage, she never got runny eyes and we continued to change bedding and foods and bath her nose. when Daisy was looking a bit better after about 1year with the crusty nose we took them both to the vet to have their next Myxomatosis vaccine, the vet told us this time he was sure what both buns had had was Chronic Myxomatosis and what he described it as was very simiular to what the buns had had. there is no cure for Chronic myxo and sometimes even vaccinated buns (as ours were) can get it. finally Daisy recovered by herself and we thought that would be it; they would be immune with the after effects of being quite snuffly and a bit blocked up and prone to sneezing fits.

Yestersday just 3monthes after recovering Daisy is begining to develop crusty bits on her nose and Dewi is showing signs of runny eyes, I am lost in what to do the vet doesn't seem to have any idea and both rabbits are very well cared for-they are well fed, well exercised and kept warm and dry.

If you have any advice or knows anything about this I would be soooooo grateful to hear it! (I do have pictures of them when they had the crusty noses if that would help at all!)

 

[naturestee]

What antibiotics were prescribed? Syphilis should be treated with injected penicillin. There is no other recommended treatment. As for the runny eyes (upper respiratory infection), the first antibiotic used is not always the correct one. Preferably a culture and sensitivity test should be done to determine which antibiotic would have the most effect.

What country are you in? That would help us give advice on antibiotics, as different meds are available in different countries. Please put it in your profile so it's easily seen.

 

[ra7751]

I would also like to know what antibiotics are being used. And it really sounds like your vets are treating by SWAG. There are tests that can pinpoint the cause of this problem. The standard treatment for syphilis is injectable penicillin. The problem is the corrrect version of penicillin isn't available in all countries (dosing has to be tweaked based on composition of the available drug) and most vets underdose penicillin....by a huge gap. If this is an upper respiratory infection, it is most likely caused by pasteurella. Azithromycin is my drug of choice if this is isolated. I feel sure we can help if we have more information about the situation.

In defence of the vets....they get precious little training on rabbits in vet school and most of what information they have is years behind what we are using. Many reference manuals still contain very old non-clinical myths.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

Injectible penicillin is the best way to treat syphilis and that is what the vet should have done. It would be useful to know where you are (country at least) because the availability of this drug for animals can vary depending on where you are. In addition, some countries don't experience myxi nearly as much (for instance if you were in the US, it would be extremely rare for them to have myxi). I also have not heard of chronic myxi--it usually kills quickly.

Also, myxi usually has swelling along with crusty lesions:
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Viral_diseases/myxomatosis.PDF

Some good syphilis references:
http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/mammal/PhotoAlbum72.html
http://www.radil.missouri.edu/info/dora/RABBPAGE/bac.htm#VI.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171321.htm

 

[DizandDewi]

They were both prescribed Baytril and we live in the UK.

The vet Daisy saw who described it as Syphilis only saw her once and that was when she has crusty bits on her chin, as it developed her nose swelled and Dewi was particually bad and had huge swellings-I will try to add some photos of them (be warned they are really discusting!)

I don't know if it makes any difference but niether lost any weight, but for a while Dewi was quite lathargic and didn't want to run around but Daisy was never like this-she remained her cheeky crazy self!!.

 

[DizandDewi]

This is Dewi when he was quite bad and the vet sugested putting him to sleep

 

[tonyshuman]

I have to say it looks a lot like syphilis to me, especially on the nose there. Baytril won't cure that. The product usually used in rabbits here in the US is called Bicillin and is a combination of short and long-acting penicillins. It's not available in the UK, but there should be some kind of option.
http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/penicillin.htm

 

[naturestee]

I've seen pics of other forum members' rabbits with myxi, it usually looks worse than that. That looks more like syphilis to me, but like Randy said there are tests that can be done to make sure.

There is a type of penicillin available for UK vets to use on rabbits. I'm not familiar with it's dosing though. Maybe your vet could consult with someone who knows more? Francis Harcourt-Brown is a very well-known one (wrote a popular textbook on rabbit medicine), although there may be others nearer by or more available.

Edit: also, Baytril is a "standard" treatment for upper respiratory infections but many bacteria are now resistant to it.

 

[DizandDewi]

The didnt want to prescribe anything other than Baytril because apparently anything else can be dangerous, I read in a book I have about rabbits that Penicillin is best to treat syphilis but it can cause enterotoxaemia, so it is best to use oxytetracycline or enrofloxacin-has anyone heard of this!?

And can rabbits recover from syphilis by themselves?

 

[DizandDewi]

*The vet didnt want to prescribe

 

[tonyshuman]

Baytril is the brand name for enrofloxacin. You're right that penicillin can cause enterotoxemia when given to rabbits orally, but it needs to be given via injection to treat syphilis. There are usually even fewer GI side effects when giving penicillin via injection than there are when giving Baytril orally. The use of penicillin to treat syphilis is very well known and really is the best way to do it. They will not recover fully from syphilis on their own--it may go into remission and not show symptoms, but it will come back, plus they can transmit it to other rabbits.

 

[naturestee]

Yup, I have first-hand experience with rabbits that have syphilis but don't show any signs, then passing it on to other rabbits. In a breeding group (all living together) surrendered to the Humane Society here all the adults looked fine, but several of the babies born showed syphilis symptoms. Every single rabbit had to be treated even if they looked healthy at the time.

 

[DizandDewi]

Thank you so much for all your help, I will get both rabbits to my vets as soon as I can and ask him to do some tests and give them something to help them.
Can you not get Penicillin for rabbits in the UK?

 

[naturestee]

There is a form of injected penicillin that is used for rabbits in the UK. Your vet may not be familiar with it, which is why it could be helpful to ask him to consult with a more up-to-date rabbit vet.

 

[DizandDewi]

My vet has said he doesn't want to prescribe Penicillin because he thinks it is too dangerous!
Would this be because he isn't familiar with the use of it and would a more upto date vet be more likely to prescribe it?

 

[tonyshuman]

Penicillin is pretty safe when given via injection. There are very few GI side effects.

This site lists the antibiotics that are safe for use in rabbits
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

Penicillin is very dangerous if given orally, but via subcutaneous injection, it's quite safe. It's also the best treatment for syphilis in animals of all kinds. A more up-to-date vet would know that you can give rabbits penicillin injections safely and they do a good job.

 

[aurora369]

It really does sound like this vet is very out of date or just not very informed about rabbits at all.

Injections of penicillin are very safe when dosed properly. I have given several of my rabbits injections myself for upper respitory infections under the prescription of a vet, I just did the injections at home rather than bring them to vet for every shot.

Perhaps call around and see if there are any different vets in the area that are familiar with giving penicillin injections to rabbits? I think you really need to find a vet that is well educated in rabbits or is at least willing to follow your suggestions and do some research themselves.

-Dawn

 

[sbaxter]

Hi there sorry to hear of your bunnies problems,can`t really help but am too in Surrey and wondering where in surrey you are? we use a great rabbit savy vet in Hinchley Wood with a vet nurse bonkers about rabbits .when i left George there for neuter i was very confident with the care he`d get ,thinking of your Buns hope they recover soon!

 

[DizandDewi]

I'm in Guildford. Your vet sounds good but I havn't heard of Hinchley Wood!! I know there is a Pet Doctors nearby and they seem very wide spread so I might try them.

 

[sbaxter]

I know Guildford,Hinchley Wood is close to Hampton Court,you`ve probably heard of that !?
i could ask at my vets if you like ?for savy vets nr you ,i`m sure each vetinary surgery sort of specialise`s in certain animals,mine is rabbits and greyhounds ,i know an odd combo! they should have the animals best interest at heart and so should suggest other vets,if say they dont have much practise in a particular type of animal.

Have looked at pet doctors website an i`m impressed all looks very professional to me one of the vets has a large rabbit !! so surely he must have good bunny knowledge/medicine /training/experience?