Rabbit facts and truthes for the month of March. Contribute please

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Kipcha

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maxysmummy wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Sweetie wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Spaying can reduce the risk of uterine cancer, but uterine cancer is rare in rabbits (atleast I have never heard of a rabbit with it.) Spaying is also stressful and dangerous for the rabbit.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

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How can spaying be dangerous and stressfulfor the rabbit?

Just because you haven't had a rabbit with uterine cancer doesn't mean that it is rare in female rabbits.

By saying that you have never had a rabbit that sprays, are you saying that your rabbits don't mark their territory? Rabbits spray everything, they spray their waterbottle and everything else. They also "chin" everything!
Well, to spay a rabbit, it has to be taken to a foreign environment (vet's office,) poked with needles, put under anesthesia and cut open to remove the reproductive organs, then sewn up and kept on pain meds. Sounds dangerous and stressful to me.
It's not just me that has never had a rabbit with reproductive cancer. Like I said earlier, there was a huge discussion done on it on another forum.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays. Yes, they do chin their water bottle, room mates, ect. but they don't spray.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
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having being sprayed in the face with urine by my female rabbit i will have to disagree with you on that one.
How could you disagree on this? They were saying that none of their rabbits spray, which is entirely possible. They didn't say, in that post at least, that no rabbits spray.
 

Sweetie

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Kipcha wrote:
maxysmummy wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Sweetie wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Spaying can reduce the risk of uterine cancer, but uterine cancer is rare in rabbits (atleast I have never heard of a rabbit with it.) Spaying is also stressful and dangerous for the rabbit.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://slverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/
How can spaying be dangerous and stressfulfor the rabbit?

Just because you haven't had a rabbit with uterine cancer doesn't mean that it is rare in female rabbits.

By saying that you have never had a rabbit that sprays, are you saying that your rabbits don't mark their territory? Rabbits spray everything, they spray their waterbottle and everything else. They also "chin" everything!
Well, to spay a rabbit, it has to be taken to a foreign environment (vet's office,) poked with needles, put under anesthesia and cut open to remove the reproductive organs, then sewn up and kept on pain meds. Sounds dangerous and stressful to me.
It's not just me that has never had a rabbit with reproductive cancer. Like I said earlier, there was a huge discussion done on it on another forum.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays. Yes, they do chin their water bottle, room mates, ect. but they don't spray.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://slverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/
having being sprayed in the face with urine by my female rabbit i will have to disagree with you on that one.
How could you disagree on this? They were saying that none of their rabbits spray, which is entirely possible. They didn't say, in that post at least, that no rabbits spray.
Silver Star Rabbitry: Are you saying that your rabbits don't spray or rabbits in general don't spray? Because I will have to disagree with you if you are saying that rabbits in general don't spray, because they do spray.
 

Kipcha

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Sweetie wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry: Are you saying that your rabbits don't spray or rabbits in general don't spray? Because I will have to disagree with you if you are saying that rabbits in general don't spray, because they do spray.
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
I know that there are rabbits that spray, I know someone that has a buck that does "target practice" at everyone that passes by, but not all do.
They already answered that here :biggrin2:
 

maxysmummy

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Kipcha wrote:
maxysmummy wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Sweetie wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Spaying can reduce the risk of uterine cancer, but uterine cancer is rare in rabbits (atleast I have never heard of a rabbit with it.) Spaying is also stressful and dangerous for the rabbit.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://slverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/
How can spaying be dangerous and stressful for the rabbit? 

Just because you haven't had a rabbit with uterine cancer doesn't mean that it is rare in female rabbits.

By saying that you have never had a rabbit that sprays, are you saying that your rabbits don't mark their territory?  Rabbits spray everything, they spray their waterbottle and everything else.  They also "chin" everything!
Well, to spay a rabbit, it has to be taken to a foreign environment (vet's office,) poked with needles, put under anesthesia and cut open to remove the reproductive organs, then sewn up and kept on pain meds. Sounds dangerous and stressful to me.   
It's not just me that has never had a rabbit with reproductive cancer. Like I said earlier, there was a huge discussion done on it on another forum.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays. Yes, they do chin their water bottle, room mates, ect. but they don't spray.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://slverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/
having being sprayed in the face with urine by my female rabbit i will have to disagree with you on that one.
How could you disagree on this? They were saying that none of their rabbits spray, which is entirely possible. They didn't say, in that post at least, that no rabbits spray.
oops! sorry was a misunderstanding, i thought she was saying that NO female rabbits spray
 

jcottonl02

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Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Sweetie wrote:
Silver Star Rabbitry wrote:
Spaying can reduce the risk of uterine cancer, but uterine cancer is rare in rabbits (atleast I have never heard of a rabbit with it.) Spaying is also stressful and dangerous for the rabbit.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://slverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/
How can spaying be dangerous and stressfulfor the rabbit?

Just because you haven't had a rabbit with uterine cancer doesn't mean that it is rare in female rabbits.

By saying that you have never had a rabbit that sprays, are you saying that your rabbits don't mark their territory? Rabbits spray everything, they spray their waterbottle and everything else. They also "chin" everything!
Well, to spay a rabbit, it has to be taken to a foreign environment (vet's office,) poked with needles, put under anesthesia and cut open to remove the reproductive organs, then sewn up and kept on pain meds. Sounds dangerous and stressful to me.
It's not just me that has never had a rabbit with reproductive cancer. Like I said earlier, there was a huge discussion done on it on another forum.
I have never had a rabbit that sprays. Yes, they do chin their water bottle, room mates, ect. but they don't spray.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens, Mini Rex and BEW Netherland Dwarfs in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://slverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/
Actually silverstar rabbitry, i believe spaying is done by keyhole surgery usually. These are two tiny incisions through which the uterus is removed. It is a relativel quick surgery. Of course, females are more invasive than males, but both are recovered from quickly, and many rabbits/dogs etc. are leaping about when they get home, full of beans (and not in pain because of their effective pain meds) and have to be stopped and forced to rest.

If it was that 'dangerous', nobody would spay their pets, and there would be many DEAD pets every month from routine spays. This just isn't the case.

Any trip to the vets will be 'stressful', but it doesn't mean you shouldn't take your pet to the vets when needed. And in my humble opinion I beleive spaying or neutering a non-breeding animal is the kindest thing to do, if not for their physical health but for their mental health.

Jen
 

jcottonl02

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Having said that, the keyhole surgery might actually only be done on dogs and cats, but still the incision made in the abdomen of the rabbit is still very small.

I think the main factor is to use an experienced vet for spays and neuters. In this case, there really should be no case for worry. Spaying should be no more dangerous or stressful for a rabbit than it would be a cat or a dog, and any rescue or society will 100% recommend neutering your non-breeding animal.

Spaying and neutering for rabbits has become a safe procedure when performed by experienced rabbit veterinarians. The House Rabbit Society has had over 1000 rabbits spayed or neutered with approximately 0.1% mortality due to anesthesia. A knowledgeable rabbit veterinarian can spay or neuter your rabbit with very little risk to a healthy rabbit. Don't allow a veterinarian with little or no experience with rabbits to spay or neuter your rabbit.

http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/spay-neuter.html

Of course- it is totally up to the owner what they do. But just in my humble opinion, I believe all non-breeding animals should definately be spayed and neutered, for my own reasons that are shared by *most*.


Oh and just for those interested in the stats for reproductive cancers of the uterus in rabbits, I found this really interesting article with lots of info and background to the statistics which say :

"80% of female rabbits get uterine cancer" … sounds familiar? That's because this statistic has become something of a mantra amongst houserabbit enthusiasts, keen to encourage rabbit owners to have their female rabbits spayed. To some people, the 80% figure sounds so dramatic, they assume it has been plucked from thin air for propaganda purposes.
But it hasn't. Nor is it a guess. In fact, the 80% figure comes from a study conducted more than 40 years ago (Greene, 1958). Although the information was published in the scientific literature, it doesn't seem to have been taken on board by vets and rabbit experts until the houserabbit movement gained momentum in the 1990s.



http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/uterine.htm

Jen
 

funnybunnymummy

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Luvmyzoocrew wrote:
Ok so on my facebook everyone hears me talking about my animals, rabbits, and posting animal realted things. Well come March when everyone starts thinking about Easter (the biggest "buy a cute lil bunny/piggie" campaign starts) I want to start posting the GOOD, the BAD, and the UGLY about owing a rabbit. I want to put on "did you know fact,caring for tip, whatever" about rabbits on my facebook page


my hope is that even if i keep just ONE person from buying a rabbit that they will not keep or really dont want then that is one bunny that wont go to a shelter. If one person takes my posting and posts it to their wall and gets someone on their list not to get a rabbit that they dont want then i have done my job or what i have set out to do.

SNIP
ok so these are some of what i came up with , so please feel free to fix anything that is wrong. I will also stress the petstore aspect, unexpected pregnancies, the importance of sexing a rabbit correctly. Any other links would be great too for information, in alot of these posts i will also include the piggies in it. I will also put RABBITSONLINE link in my posts for the peeps on my facebook that have rabbits already to check out and if someone does decide to get on, a great place for them to research it.
Since you're directing this to non-rabbit people, I wouldtry a different angle that doesn't lay out every small detail, but still gets across the amount of work involved in having a rabbit:

Rabbits are herbivores and have very specific dietary requirements. Sudden dietary changes can cause seriousdigestive upset and even death. Gas can be fatal to rabbits.

Rabbits are not rodents. They're lagomorphs!

Rabbits can live, on average, 10 to 12 years. The oldest rabbit on record is 16!

Rabbits can be litter trained andare actually very clean animals. Rabbits can also decide they are no longer litter trained at a moment's notice.

Rabbits molt on average twice a year. During those times, expect a lot of hair. Everywhere.

Rabbits can be trained to perform tricks and come to their name. Sometimes. When they want to.

Like other non-breeding pets, rabbits should be spayed and neutered. As much for their mental health and theelimination of undesirable behaviours as to reduce the unwanted pet population.

Rabbits breed like . . . rabbits!Rabbits can breed at any time, even through wire cages. Gestation lasts only 28-30 days and rabbits can become pregnant the same day they give birth.

Rabbits chew. Rabbits dig.A bored rabbit can be very destructive. Expect to invest in bunny-proofing materials and bunny-friendly toys.

Rabbits are highly social animals. They do not thrive when they are locked in a small cageand ignored.

Rabbits are not very vocal. They communicate mostly through body language.Just because a rabbit does not vocalize, doesn't mean theydon't have an opinion!

Rabbits are prone to hiding illness. It's important to be in tune to their diet, theirdaily output, and their behaviour.

Rabbits are considered "exotic pets" byveterinarians and therefore the cost of their care is more expensive than dogs and cats. Because they are "exotic pets", not all vets are experienced with their care. Rabbits should see a "rabbit savvy" vet.

Rabbits, especiallydwarf breeds,are not good pets for very young children. Any pet should be the family pet with parents taking the lead in its care.



I figure, by taking a more negative POV, but keeping your facts interesting, you should dissuade the non-rabbit people, while encouraging the true bunny lovers.

Hope that helps!

Rue
 

gentle giants

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Sweetie wrote:
I have to disagree with you Emily. Female rabbits do have a high risk of uterine cancer by the age of 2 or older. Whether they are bred or not. The risk of uterine cancer is 85% in unspayed females. I had Sweetie spayed and she now has an 85% less chance of getting uterine cancer because she is spayed.

Another reason why I think spaying and neutering is a must is because there are too many unwanted rabbits in this world, we don't need more.
I don't think anyone here is saying that spay/neuter is unnecessary or shouldn't be done. I run a rescue now, and I strongly encourage any pet rabbit owner to spay/neuter their pet rabbit. To me the main reason is behavioral issues. I have had a lot of people want me to take their rabbits because "it's getting mean now". To summarize-I am very much in favor of spay/neuter, especially with owners who are inexperienced with rabbits.

I also have to ask you a question. I don't mean this to be in any way critical or mean, so please don't think I am trying to attack you because that is not the way I mean this at all. You said that the risk of UC in intact does is 85% or higher. How do you know? Have you had multiple does get uterine cancer? Or is this something that you have read/been told? There are several previous posts just on this thread from breeders/owners that have had MANY rabbits over the years, myself included, and have NEVER LOST ONE to a reproductive cancer. As I stated previously, I have lost older rabbits to other forms of cancer, but nothing that could have been prevented by a spay/neuter. These were intact rabbits, retired breeders.
I totally agree that breeding is not something to be done lightly or for "fun" and I know firsthand how many unwanted rabbits there are. I am just saying.... I will believe experience over a written article any day of my life.

Just a side note-I have been sprayed in the face by a doe once. She wasn't spayed at that time, but I don't know if that really counts with a doe. :yuck
 

jcottonl02

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gentle giants wrote:
Sweetie wrote:
I have to disagree with you Emily. Female rabbits do have a high risk of uterine cancer by the age of 2 or older. Whether they are bred or not. The risk of uterine cancer is 85% in unspayed females. I had Sweetie spayed and she now has an 85% less chance of getting uterine cancer because she is spayed.

Another reason why I think spaying and neutering is a must is because there are too many unwanted rabbits in this world, we don't need more.
I don't think anyone here is saying that spay/neuter is unnecessary or shouldn't be done. I run a rescue now, and I strongly encourage any pet rabbit owner to spay/neuter their pet rabbit. To me the main reason is behavioral issues. I have had a lot of people want me to take their rabbits because "it's getting mean now". To summarize-I am very much in favor of spay/neuter, especially with owners who are inexperienced with rabbits.

I also have to ask you a question. I don't mean this to be in any way critical or mean, so please don't think I am trying to attack you because that is not the way I mean this at all. You said that the risk of UC in intact does is 85% or higher. How do you know? Have you had multiple does get uterine cancer? Or is this something that you have read/been told? There are several previous posts just on this thread from breeders/owners that have had MANY rabbits over the years, myself included, and have NEVER LOST ONE to a reproductive cancer. As I stated previously, I have lost older rabbits to other forms of cancer, but nothing that could have been prevented by a spay/neuter. These were intact rabbits, retired breeders.
I totally agree that breeding is not something to be done lightly or for "fun" and I know firsthand how many unwanted rabbits there are. I am just saying.... I will believe experience over a written article any day of my life.

Just a side note-I have been sprayed in the face by a doe once. She wasn't spayed at that time, but I don't know if that really counts with a doe. :yuck
These statistics mentioned as 80% of does, refers to those over 6 years old. Just out of interest, do breeders often have most of their rabbits living to past that, and to 10, 12, 15 or even older? I don't know anything about the breeding world, really, I just wondered, because perhaps if most don't have does living generally to an age over 6, maybe this can answer the question why many breeders have not seen a case of uterine cancer? I wonder, also, if a breeding doe dies from an unknown cause, do all breeders take them for an autopsy, to determine cause of death? That would be, I'm sure, very costly for a breeder of more than 20 rabbits, to pay for an autopsy on all those does that just...pass away from "old age".

Just honestly asking the questions out of interest (not to spark an arguement!!) :)

I know Julie has lots of breeding holland lops, so maybe she could shed some light on these questions, with her knowledge? Or any other breeder that has been breeding for a while :)

Jen

 

OakRidgeRabbits

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jcottonl02 wrote:
These statistics mentioned as 80% of does, refers to those over 6 years old. Just out of interest, do breeders often have most of their rabbits living to past that, and to 10, 12, 15 or even older?

I know Julie has lots of breeding holland lops, so maybe she could shed some light on these questions, with her knowledge? Or any other breeder that has been breeding for a while :)

Jen
It's hard to really evaluate breeding rabbits because, like you said, not all breeders keep their rabbits so long. I haven't been breeding the Hollands long enough to even have rabbits that old yet. I've just had them since 2005, I bred mixed breeds in 4-H before that.

I do have my two original mixed breed rabbits, one has been bred several times before and she just turned 9 years old. The other has not been bred and is 8 years old. And then I have a pretty good number of does age 1-4 currently. I've sold several of my older breeding does (who would now be ages 5-7) to pet homes and several of them keep me updated. I personally haven't had any adult does pass away yet, or have complications with breeding (one indicator of uterine cancer). So unfortunately my personal experience is limited.

The article I posted above is one that I enjoyed reading, and I think it sheds light on the fact that the occurrence of uterine cancer in does is really unknown. There has not been enough research done to determine that 85% of does will have complications from it. I personally believe that number is really generous, considering that I've seen no cases of cancer myself. But my main "issue" with the statistic is that the HRS and many shelters/rescues throw around the number without any solid or very reliable evidence. I don't have anything against those organizations in and of themselves or anything, so don't get me wrong (cause I know some breeders do). But I wish that rather than insisting that getting a doe spayed is life or death, they would just say that "there is an increased chance of uterine cancer in does over the age of 5" or whatever the age is. This communicates the information that we know to be true- there is increased risk with increased age. But it eliminates the big 85% number that we just simply don't know for sure about.

Like everyone else though, my opinion is only based on the information available to us all. Which isn't too much as of now.:p
 

tonyshuman

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It is important to remember that all animals are different and generalities about behavior and even health are not absolute. I would stay away from absolutes.

As for the uterine cancer issue, I have read the article and can get access to it if you want a copy (through my school). It will take me a few days but please PM me if you want it.

A good summary of the 80% figure article is found here:
http://www.rabbit.org/care/bibliography.html

[line]Ann NY Acad. Sci. 75:535-542 Green, 1958. This is perhaps the best article, and probably where everyone gets the often quoted 80% figure. Greene monitored a colony of rabbits over a long period of time (8-10 years). All rabbits dying from whatever causes were necropsied. 16.7% of 849 rabbits were found to have uterine adenocarcinoma. The average age of the colony was greater than 4 years, which is important, because most lab rabbits are under 24 months of age. The tumor incidence in Greene's colony was very closely linked to age. In rabbits dying between 2 and 3 years of age the incidence of cancer was 4.2%. In rabbits 5-6 years of age the incidence is 79.1% (the mythical 80%). Note: these rabbits did not necessarily DIE from the cancer, but there were tumors after their death.
We don't know what the different causes of death were, but they are listed as "natural". The incidence of cancer in males and females is about the same in rabbits under two years of age, after that, the incidence in females dramatically increases over the males, primarily due to uterine cancer.
We found the article in _TBLR_ because it was referenced in a journal that claimed that the incidence of cancer was somewhere between 1 and 4% in rabbits. That low figure was compiled from laboratory rabbits, most under 2 years of age. So, that figure agrees very well with Greene's findings. When one starts looking at older rabbits the data drastically changes. Most of the veterinarians we've talked with seem to believe that this is very genetically controlled. _TBLR_ even lists breeds that are not susceptible to uterine cancer. While 80% may not be a figure for all rabbits, it was for that colony. Other colonies have had >50% incidence of cancer.
[line]
I do not know what the incidence of cancer or uterine tumors is in rabbits raised recently. Things have changed a lot in rabbit husbandry since the 1950s.
This is the abstract and pubmed link to a more recent article with similar objectives that found that uterine adenocarcinoma was one of the most common disorders of the uterus seen in a particular set of patients.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.ezproxy.library.wisc.edu/pubmed/20173107
[line]

Walter B, Poth T, Böhmer E, Braun J, Matis U.
Clinic of Veterinary Surgery and Reproduction of Small Animals, Institute of Veterinary Pathology, University of Munich, Veterinärstrasse 13, 80539 Munich, Germany. beate.walter@gyn.vetmed.uni-muenchen.de
AbstractThe medical records of 59 rabbits with uterine disorders were assessed retrospectively. Ten animals were presented because of vaginal discharge; the reasons for presentation of the remaining 49 rabbits included mammary masses, skin tumours, anorexia and poor general health. All the rabbits underwent a clinical examination, and 54 were examined by ultrasonography and/or radiography. Forty-five rabbits underwent ovariohysterectomy and the other 14 rabbits were euthanased, three because of pulmonary metastases and 11 because of very poor health unrelated to their uterine disease. The genital tracts of all the rabbits were submitted for histological examination. Endometrial hyperplasia (in 24 rabbits) and adenocarcinoma (in 18 rabbits) were the most common uterine disorders; in a further 11 cases both conditions were observed. The remaining six rabbits had other uterine disorders. Four rabbits that were presented with adenocarcinoma of the mammary gland were found to have concurrent uterine disorders. The mean age of the rabbits with endometrial hyperplasia was 4.5 years, and that of the rabbits with adenocarcinoma was 6.1 years. Four rabbits had ovarian tumours.
PMID: 20173107 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE][line]
 

Luvmyzoocrew

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Rabbits can also decide they are no longer litter trained at a moment's notice.---
I have to say i laughed out loud on this one,lol
 

Sweetie

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Thank you Jen and Claire!

gentle giants: There are articles that I have read that say there is an 85% chance that the doe will get uterine cancer and some of them are on this thread. Maybe those breeders have does that are in the 15% category of not getting uterine cancer.

Sweetie has an 85% chance of not getting uterine cancer and that to me was worth getting her spayed.
 

maxysmummy

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Sweetie wrote:
Thank you Jen and Claire!

gentle giants: There are articles that I have read that say there is an 85% chance that the doe will get uterine cancer and some of them are on this thread. Maybe those breeders have does that are in the 15% category of not getting uterine cancer.

Sweetie has an 85% chance of not getting uterine cancer and that to me was worth getting her spayed.
100% chance of not getting it ... no uterus no uterine cancer :)
 

Silver Star Rabbitry

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jcottonl02 wrote:
I wonder, also, if a breeding doe dies from an unknown cause, do all breeders take them for an autopsy, to determine cause of death? That would be, I'm sure, very costly for a breeder of more than 20 rabbits, to pay for an autopsy on all those does that just...pass away from "old age
I autopsy every rabbit over about 4 weeks that dies here. Good practice for Medical, or Veterinary school, I suppose.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Marten Rabbits in North Louisiana.

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://silverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/

silvermarten@aol.com

 

gentle giants

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Sweetie wrote:
Thank you Jen and Claire!

gentle giants: There are articles that I have read that say there is an 85% chance that the doe will get uterine cancer and some of them are on this thread. Maybe those breeders have does that are in the 15% category of not getting uterine cancer.

Sweetie has an 85% chance of not getting uterine cancer and that to me was worth getting her spayed.
Sweetie, I think it is wonderful that you got her spayed, and I wish all pet bunny owners would spay/neuter. All I meant was that just because there is an article that gives a percentage, or makes a statement, doesn't make it accurate. I am old enough to know that seeing something in print doesn't make it a fact.
 
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