Questions for breeders

[OakRidgeRabbits]

I agree, Starlight.

Very, very, very few people are "throwing rabbits together to make a quick buck". Again, these people are ignorant, irresponsible, and should not even be classified as "breeders". These are irresponsible pet owners- people who are so uneducated that they can't even make rational breeding decisions.

I can also say, from personal experience, that reputable show breeders make NO MONEY AT ALL. I can't emphasize that enough. Breeding rabbits is a hobby, it's not a business. Any money that comes off the sale of rabbits goes straight back into food, cages, and supplies for the remaining herd. Most breeders are lucky if the rabbits pay for themselves, most of us end up spending money to keep them more than being reimbursed.

One might say, then why don't you just give away the rabbits? Again, the sale of rabbits helps us maintain the others. But it also guarantees better buyers. Generally, a buyer who is willing to pay $50 for a purebred, pedigreed rabbit is someone who has researched the breed and is making a serious commitment to own a pet. As opposed to a random pet owner who might go out and pay $5 for any old rabbit on impulse.

This being said, I just can't agree to disagree on such a statement. It is very offensive and demeaning, as a responsible breeder, when uneducated people make assumptions and do not take into consideration the truth presented to them by a real breeder. Too many people go off the deep end with false information about breeders, given to them by supposedly reputable groups, like the HRS. I don't blame pet owners for having this impression at all, but when this many reputable breeders tell you otherwise, I am still concerned about where the confusion may lie.

Might I also make one last point- reputable breeders do not support irresponssible pet owners (or in your terms "breeders") who are so lax about their breeding practices. I would never buy from one of these people or support their rabbitry simply because they're not producing quality stock that I can use in my herd. So again, who's fault is it that these people exist and continue? More irresponsible pet owners who buy from them.

Reputable breeders are SO far out of the loop from BYB/Bunny mill people...so, so far. There is no relationship at all there and it's two totally different worlds.

I hope I didn't offend anyone by this statment, but I feel very strongly about this topic and truly wish to educate those who only see it from the other side.

 

[aurora369]

I am not a breeder, however I have been on this forum long enough to understand what our good breeders are striving for and the reasons behind what they do.

I think that this thread, and the other thread about Rabbitry visitors, is providing an excellent opportunity for responsible breeders to explain what makes them different from a BYB. The only way for people to learn, is to have the information presented to them.

By having examples of responsible breeders explaining their methods on this forum when I first joined, I learned how irresponsible I was being with my own rabbits. With out the presentation of facts, how is any one to learn?

I personally think that if this thread an be kept cool headed, then many people will learn alot. If people get defensive and rude, then no one will learn anything. Asking questions is a normal part of human nature. We desire to understand what we don't know, and have a need to understand why and not just take things at face value.

The best kind of education, is a calm presententation of facts, with solid reasons behind them. The only way to combat mis-education (in my opinion) is to provide information in a calm and non-judgemental way. Those interested in learning will learn, those not interested where a lost cause to begin with and not worth the effort.

I enjoy hearing our breeders explain why they do what they do. How they pick rabbits, why they have the sales policies that they do, why they do or do not let visitors in their barns. They all have valid reasons, and once explained, makes a lot of sense.

--Dawn

 

[CKGS]

Again I did NOT at any time say any of you are BYBs. Read my posts please again and try doing it without these thoughts already in your head. What I have said repeatedly is that it does happen. If you don't believe that or see that as fact, I am sorry. I agree that uneducated people support them and make it possible for them to continue to breed. What I am trying to give to others and myself in the process is this and some seem to miss the point: This thread gives people examples of what good breeders do and how they raise their rabbits. Showing the difference between the two.
Is there something wrong with wanting to ask questions? Is there something wrong with learning? Usually defensiveness means there is something wrong and one doesn't like being asked these questions. If you don't want to post replies- don't. This is your freedom. I had thought I had the right to ask questions and not be told I was bashing. Now who here is actually doing the bashing. This ia an adult discussion.... But I'm about done with it because it seems it is getting farther away from that.
BTW Thanks again Polly. I love hearing from you and other breeders who aren't angered by questions and answer them pleasantly.

 

[TinysMom]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

This being said, I just can't agree to disagree on such a statement. It is very offensive and demeaning, as a responsible breeder, when uneducated people make assumptions and do not take into consideration the truth presented to them by a real breeder. Too many people go off the deep end with false information about breeders, given to them by supposedly reputable groups, like the HRS. I don't blame pet owners for having this impression at all, but when this many reputable breeders tell you otherwise, I am still concerned about where the confusion may lie.

I've been on this forum for years and have absolutely loved it and learned a lot. I've been following this discussion and trying to decide whether to post in it or not.

One of the reasons this forum has worked so well for so many years is an unspoken attitude we try to have ... which is that there are times that we do just "agree to disagree". We have folks on the forum who absolutely hate breeders - yet we have a forum that welcomes breeders. Why? Because we welcome people of all beliefs and so we support both responsible breeders and rescues...

There is a statement that I love and remind myself of whenever I get upset. It goes like this...."Opinions are like feet...we all have them...and some stink." I always hate it when I come to realize that my opinions might be the stinky ones...its always easier for me to want to point to others and say their opinions stink.

I think this thread is fascinating and if I didn't have to get out the door to get back to work - I'd post my thoughts on some of the questions....I'll try to do that when I get back home.

Thanks to the original poster for starting this thread - it really has been interesting to read what everyone has to say. Its amazing to see how different we can be in some ways - and yet maybe alike in others.

 

[TinysMom]

CKGS wrote:

Again I did NOT at any time say any of you are BYBs. Read my posts please again and try doing it without these thoughts already in your head. What I have said repeatedly is that it does happen. If you don't believe that or see that as fact, I am sorry. I agree that uneducated people support them and make it possible for them to continue to breed. What I am trying to give to others and myself in the process is this and some seem to miss the point: This thread gives people examples of what good breeders do and how they raise their rabbits. Showing the difference between the two.
Is there something wrong with wanting to ask questions? Is there something wrong with learning? Usually defensiveness means there is something wrong and one doesn't like being asked these questions. If you don't want to post replies- don't. This is your freedom. I had thought I had the right to ask questions and not be told I was bashing. Now who here is actually doing the bashing. This ia an adult discussion.... But I'm about done with it because it seems it is getting farther away from that.
BTW Thanks again Polly. I love hearing from you and other breeders who aren't angered by questions and answer them pleasantly.

I wanted to say that you are right - you do have the right to ask questions, etc.

If you're being told you're bashing in PMs or something - or if people are harassing you privately - you can always forward the pms to a moderator and ask for help in dealing with the situation.

 

[CKGS]

Thanks so much Peg. I look forward to hearing your answers as well.
I have been excited to hear/see the answers to these questions and to have a healthy debate about practices everyone uses/doesn't use and maybe enlighten everyone- non breeders and breeders alike. Healthy discussion can benefit everyone.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

This post has very quickly turned into bashing breeders, rather than an honest question/answer session. (For example, "When brothers impregnate sisters? I am sure this does happen sometimes." or "Why have so many rabbits that you can't possibly care for them they way you wish your buyers would?")

If one did not feel that the breeders on this forum were operating in this way, the questions would not be posed. Like others on this forum, none of us (us being reputable breeders) have answers to these questions other than- you are sadly misinformed and no, this never happens. Because we never see such irresponsible operation in our rabbitries.

Feel more than free to contact some BYB's and ask them why they operate as they do. They will certainly have answers to those questions for you. But posting them here certainly does imply that one believes that people here are practicing in this way. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we are more than happy to answer questions. But not to be put down by blanket statements.

It's kind of like asking a seasoned chef why your grandma fries fish instead of bakes it. It just doesn't make sense because the chef has nothing to do with grandma.

 

[CKGS]

Alright, fine then. Take it as you want to. I have tried to apologize for offending anyone and apparently can't satisfy so continue on as before and act like I never interrupted.

 

[irishbunny]

I really like discussions like this, as long as they don't turn ugly with breeder/pet owner bashing and everyone is aloud to give their opinion. My personal preference is to rabbitrys that treat their rabbits almost as pets, they pet them they give them treats, toys, veggies and let them get playtime because to me, a show/breeding rabbit and a pet rabbit are the same inside. I do want to breed rabbits when I'm older, would be doing it now if I had enough space. I really admire the practices Blue Sky Acre's Rabbitry and Cinnabun Stud, they would be rabbitrys I would aspire to be like.

 

[Happi Bun]

I'm not seeing any bashing of responsible breeders going on. These are good questions being asked and I for one am enjoying learning the answers from various breeders.

 

[tori]

I also enjoy healthy debate. And as Gracie said, I think show/breeding rabbits and pet rabbits are one in the same. When I eventually breed I want mine to also be my pets.

But I do have a question as I am very, very confused now. I have heard that vegetables aid in digestion, that they should be fed fresh and wet because it moistens food in the digestive tract and makes it easier to digest. This is also rather easy to believe because, along with hay, it is roughage, and after all what do rabbits and deer (who I believe they are related to) eat in the wild?
But then also some have said that vegetables actually mess up the digestive tract and don't keep the rabbits conditioned. If this is true does anyone possibly know why this happens, not just that it does? Now I know each rabbit has its individual needs but I am really divided on which to believe as I only want to provide the best for my rabbits...

 

[polly]

Ok lets blast a few things here. Of course you have the right to ask questions and of course it is up to us as breeders to answer if we wish to

I am seeing both points of view here and would prefer to encourage the questions especially from people who have a probelm with breeders because they could sure learn a thing or 2 and I have had serious fall outs with ignorant people who class all breeders in one basket to be honest it sickens me when they see only their way that we are all bad.

As oakridge and starlight and I am sure others have said we breed to better the breed.

Now playtime here is why show rabbits do not generally get play time and I will stand up and say my show bucks do not get playtime when there are a lot of shows on. they may get playtime if we get a good show break. My does do get run out time when I am home and my beverens. My house rabbits get playtime in the house after the babies.

reason1 - they have to be spotless clean you go get your rabbit who has played in the garden digging etc and clean their feet till they are spotless then get anywhwere they have peed on theirselves and get any tugs out thats what we have to put our rabbits up on the table when showing. Its part of their presentation if you put a dirty rabbit up then they will be marked down for it. You may not agree with it I am not sure how much I agree with it tbh but thats how it is!

reason 2 well for my nethies anyway to much playtime runs their shoulders off now a nethie is like the staffie bull of teh rabbit world type is all and they have to have wide shoulders so running round nuts isnt all that great for them

thats my reasons I m sure other breeders will add to it

Brother to sister well now I cant remember who but this can be done for quite a few generations before problems occur BUT! considering rabbits generally tend to be line bred then they may already be closely related so you increase the chance of problems you are passing onto someone. Good breeders understand why they are breeding who to who not ony for improvement but also so they know their line they work with. It is usual that people will mate father to daugther or mother to son if they want to improve a line. Pamnock has a fab website that will explain it for you more.

Bad breeders would not explain their practice to you they breed for money and to do that they will continually keep their does bred as in have a litter give them 4 weeks and then remate or even worse remate straight after kindling OR they will mate have a litter foster it over to another doe and breed it up again.

You will never catch a good breeder doing that we understand teh strain it puts on our animals a doe is no good worn out your babies will not be so healthy in which case you either couldnt show them or you could but it would get put around other breeders that you are not taking care of your rabbits.



There is no point getting annoyed over it in reality its only good show breeders that can change the outlook yes it really p***s you off because people think thats how you treat your animals also people judge you without finding out their facts.

Oakridge puts forward a good point responsible breeders are not causing an overpopulation problem BYB and rabbit farms are also so are the pet stores that sell them and the people who buy them!

Now for the crux of it you see a lot of rabbits out there with health problems in fact my Nibbler who I lost last tuesday was one of them which is why he was neutered and lived in the house. he was from a breeder who did not breed for show and did not vet his rabbits I had 3 rabbits from him as pets nice man without a clue all 3 had problems mainly malocclusion. not the only time i have seen it its a big problem in a lot of nethies when attention is not payed. Here is teh difference if I have a litter that shows malocclusion the parents are not bred again any babies with problems are not sold. Thats being responsible rather than passing on huge vet bills and other problems down the line.

now another thing what about all teh pet owners out there who get rabbits from breeders like that and dont think about it and whoopsd have an accidental litter then they pass on problems to other pet owners hmmmm just a little something for people to think about

sorry for long post lol

 

[polly]

tori wrote:

I also enjoy healthy debate. And as Gracie said, I think show/breeding rabbits and pet rabbits are one in the same. When I eventually breed I want mine to also be my pets.

But I do have a question as I am very, very confused now. I have heard that vegetables aid in digestion, that they should be fed fresh and wet because it moistens food in the digestive tract and makes it easier to digest. This is also rather easy to believe because, along with hay, it is roughage, and after all what do rabbits and deer (who I believe they are related to) eat in the wild?
But then also some have said that vegetables actually mess up the digestive tract and don't keep the rabbits conditioned. If this is true does anyone possibly know why this happens, not just that it does? Now I know each rabbit has its individual needs but I am really divided on which to believe as I only want to provide the best for my rabbits...

my advice would be everything in moderation if you get them used to a good hay with soem pellets to make sure they have all the nutrients they need and soem veg it usually works out well

all rabbits are different as are all breeds so what can work for one may not work so well for others my beverend get a lot more veg than my nethies but then my bevs are 9lbs and my nethies are 2.5 lbs my dutch loves veg some of my nethies turn their nose up at it soem love it it all depends and imo they are better with it if given from day one. I give my does it so my babies are used to it saves weaning them onto it they get a little nibble at their mums

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

tori wrote:

But I do have a question as I am very, very confused now. I have heard that vegetables aid in digestion, that they should be fed fresh and wet because it moistens food in the digestive tract and makes it easier to digest. This is also rather easy to believe because, along with hay, it is roughage, and after all what do rabbits and deer (who I believe they are related to) eat in the wild?
But then also some have said that vegetables actually mess up the digestive tract and don't keep the rabbits conditioned. If this is true does anyone possibly know why this happens, not just that it does? Now I know each rabbit has its individual needs but I am really divided on which to believe as I only want to provide the best for my rabbits...

Tori, I just want to point out that there is no fact or fiction in this case. The veggie debate is a large one, and the following information is my opinion and experience only. This varies from person to person.

Since the beginning of domestication, people have been developing rabbit pellets. Initially, rabbits were not kept as pets. They were kept as livestock. When working with livestock, you want the animals to grow to harvesting weight as soon as possible. By getting them out asap, you're maximizing cage space and minimizing costs to keep each individual rabbit. So rabbit pellets were originally developed for rapid weight gain and conditioning on meat rabbits.

Some time later, rabbits started becoming popular pets. At this time, rabbit pellet companies started modifying their pellets. Obviously, pet rabbits do not need the fat and protein content in growth formulas just for regular weight maintenance. So the new pet feeds were lighter on fat and protein content.

Long story short, you can now find pellets formulated for all different stages of rabbit life. You can still find pellets for fast growth of market rabbits, but you can also find pellets specifically made for dry bucks and does, lactating and pregnant does, young rabbits, old rabbits, pet rabbits, etc. Some people have been trained through the "rabbit media" to believe that pellets are bad because they were originally made for the quick development of meat rabbits. But times change, pellets change, and that is no longer even debatable- pellets are made for all different types and stages of rabbit growth and maintenance!

Now- back to veggies.

Many pet owners these days swear by veggie supplements, or even more extreme- all veggie diets. The interesting thing is, I have asked on multiple forums for someone who has their rabbits on the all-veggie diet to explain to me exactly what they are feeding. I don't mean kale, parsley, and carrots. I mean, why are you feeding those? How do they benefit the rabbit? What is the protein, fat, and fiber content that your rabbit is eating daily? So far, not one single person has been able to answer this question for me.

This being said, take a guess why I don't support veggie diets.

To tie it all together-

Breeders don't feed pellets simply to fatten them up or because it's cheaper. They do it because show and breeding rabbits need very specific amounts of protein, fat, and fiber in their diet. Not only to keep them healthy and conditioned, but also to keep them fertile and actively breeding and producing. If we could see these same results using a veggie diet, many breeders may do that. But since we can't, the pellets are the only way for us to feed our rabbits what they need and maintain our breeding herds.

Now, I don't have a problem with pet people supplementing veggies here and there or anything. Rabbits were meant to eat roughage. But in the wild, rabbits have the natural instinct to find and eat what they need in the amount they need it in. It's programmed into them. Domesticated rabbits can't do that. They rely on us to feed them. So, because we don't know exactly how to properly feed veggies, I never reccommend all-veggie diets, even to pet owners. I suggest that all rabbits get some amount of pellets daily, just to maintain all the vitamins and minerals necessary to them.

I'm sorry this is turning into a novel, but just some more information-

Young, weaning-age rabbits are very susceptible to enteritis and other digestive upset. This can be easily brought on by feeding greens. Why? I don't know exactly. But I do know, from experience, that a dry diet full of lots of fiber works well for them. So that's what I use.

It is also true that adult rabbits can easily lose condition when most of their pellet diet is exchanged for veggies. Why? Because again, none of us are really exactly sure how to properly feed veggies.

I've just heard of too many people having digestive issues, and even deaths, from nearly all-veggie diets. So I will never go that route myself only because I've found something better that works for me. Does that mean giving your rabbits an occasional piece of parsley will harm them? No. It's just not my overall diet of choice.

*whew* That's kind of all over the place. But I hope it helped you understand a little more why I prefer pellets. And of course,I do supplement with grass hay daily as well for extra fiber.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

^^^ Thanks for that very thorough post, OakRidge.
I've been following this thread and other veg-hay debates, and this explanation seems to suit the current climate. I can see the value in knowing the exact nutritional values and how a pelletized diet, with hay and veg can be manipulated to generate the best possible health for a group of rabbits.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

You do not give veggie treat because an all veggie diet causes stomache problems sometimes, or did I read that wrong?

My rabbit vet said she sees so many rabbits with messed up teeth and body condition problems due to all pellet diets. First words out of her mouth to me after examining Mousse was "She is very healthy, what do you feed her? No fruit, right?", haha. She was all "push that hay!" She was very nice.

I give them loads of hay but I have a few that does not like eating it. Pellet addicts.

 

[tori]

Thank you for that very informative post, OakRidge Come to think of it, you're right, we don't really know all the nutritional values of vegetables, while I can actually see what is in the pellets. That does offer some comfort, knowing exactly what it is you are feeding them. I fed my old rabbits a pet formula of pellets like you mentioned and I plan feeding pellets to my future rabbits as well. I never really planned on an all-veggie diet. So as Polly said, I think moderation is key. I will give pellets and supplement with hay and just see what works. Thanks again!

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

bunnybunbunb wrote:

My rabbit vet said she sees so many rabbits with messed up teeth and body condition problems due to all pellet diets.

Well, I should have also pointed out that not all pellets are created equal.You must be a knowledgable bunny parent (breeder, pet, show, whatever) in order to choose a healthy, well-balanced diet. For example, I look for around 16% protein, 3% fat, and at least 15% or so fiber (since I feed hay, fiber content in the pellets isn't so much a concern). That doesn't mean that every pellet that meets these conditions will work for my rabbits. I've gone through a bit of trial and error before finding a pellet that my rabbits really thrived on.

Not everyone in the pet world (in fact, very few people) know how to correctly balance their rabbits' diet, whether it's using pellets or veggies. These are the rabbits that most vets see, since most breeders are even more knowledgable than a majority of rabbit savvy vets and treat their animals on their own. So your vet probably sees the worst of the worst in general. I'm not saying that any of these people are even bad pet owners, just that it's not uncommon to be blindly feeding something that's not necessarily helping, ya know? Just from inexperence or not really knowing what to look for. Breeders, on the other hand, can judge the effectiveness of a diet based on an entire herd of rabbits. So that's quite a benefit in that sense, but is helpful overall to pet owners too, to have that information.

So although I don't like to put a blanket statement on pellet diets OR veggie diets, it is my experience that rabbits do better on pellets, generally speaking. And of course, that depends on feeding the right pellet too, not just any random pellet. Kinda make sense now? lol Tried to explain anyway.h34r2And again, I don't like all pellet diets either, my rabbits also get hay daily. Some people only give pellets, but I just haven't found a pellet that contains a satisfactory amount of fiber for my rabbits.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

"And again, I don't like all pellet diets either, my rabbits also get hay daily. Some people only give pellets, but I just haven't found a pellet that contains a satisfactory amount of fiber for my rabbits."

In the begining I did all pellets and my rabbits had horrible condition. They rabbits are grazers which is the problem with all pellet diets. At one point I was feeding upwards of a cup of pellets to 4 lbs rabbits and they where still thin. It was because they where eating all there food in a few hours time and starving the rest. That is why hay is a must.

I give hay in the morning and then roughly half a cup of pellets(some of them only eat half that) and more hay of the night. I have great pellets so the bunnies are doing very well. I was feeding Purina and had horrible trouble, it was the only pellet around, and then tractor supply moved in and a breeder and I keep them bought out on the Manna Pro SHO.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Wow, they definitely shouldn't need a cup for a 4 lb. rabbit! You're right, that's pretty bad.

But with a better pellet, an all pellet diet could be fine. I currently feed Purina Show Formula (blue bag), and my rabbits are doing really well on it. They get about 1/2 cup daily and look fantastic. I do supplement with some rolled oats as well to keep thier coats conditioned. They really would be just fine, condition-wise on that. But I also prefer that my rabbits get more fiber to keep their digestive system healthy, so they get hay too. Some people only do pellets but yeah...hard to find one that's THAT balanced.