ChinaBun
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And thanks to all the others for their contributions.
Qingqing has another wound
- Thread starter ChinaBun
- Start date
Help Support Rabbits Online Forum:
Leaf
Well-Known Member
I havent had a chance to look at these yet, but these links came through the Etherbun group I posted on:
[url]http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Disorder/Corneal_ulcers.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Differential/Corneal_ulcers.htm[/url]
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Differential/generalities_ileus.htm
[url]http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Disorder/Corneal_ulcers.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Differential/Corneal_ulcers.htm[/url]
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Differential/generalities_ileus.htm
Leaf
Well-Known Member
If you don't mind, I'm going to find your first thread here so I can manually send it to a vet who works with rabbits. That way they'll have accurate dates and timeframes to follow along with the pictures of your girl, and maybe they can offer advice.
Unfortunantly unregistered members can't view the threads here so it isn't as simple as directing them to the threads. I'll try to get it all sent out tomorrow morning for you so something can be figured out.
Unfortunantly unregistered members can't view the threads here so it isn't as simple as directing them to the threads. I'll try to get it all sent out tomorrow morning for you so something can be figured out.
Pipp
Well-Known Member
Rami's Post
Not sure if non-members can see the Etherbun group,but here's a link to a post by one of their members.
sas
Not sure if non-members can see the Etherbun group,but here's a link to a post by one of their members.
sas
ChinaBun
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I was unable to go to the link above, but thanks for the PM of the answer Rami gave, and thanks to Leaf for asking it. It's helpful to me. Please give my thanks to Rami.
The vet wants to look at the wound almost every day this week. When it heals, he'll try to have an x-ray of the lump on the jaw taken at his old university.
She is not a healthy rabbit right now. It seems to me that the worst part is wearing the E-collar. The vet says that she has to wear it for an hour or so after I put the medicine on, but he has prescribed three things to put on the wound, so most of the time she's wearing the collar. That makes her so unhappy. Angry at first, then sad. I keep it off as much as I can, including overnight.
The vet wants to look at the wound almost every day this week. When it heals, he'll try to have an x-ray of the lump on the jaw taken at his old university.
She is not a healthy rabbit right now. It seems to me that the worst part is wearing the E-collar. The vet says that she has to wear it for an hour or so after I put the medicine on, but he has prescribed three things to put on the wound, so most of the time she's wearing the collar. That makes her so unhappy. Angry at first, then sad. I keep it off as much as I can, including overnight.
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Pipp wrote:
The link is to yahoo mail, and it won't bring up someone elses account (for obvious security reasons).
What advice has been offered?
Pam
The link is to yahoo mail, and it won't bring up someone elses account (for obvious security reasons).
What advice has been offered?
Pam
ChinaBun
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The reply talked some about the lump in the jaw that my rabbit has, suggesting that nothing be done without an x-ray. The writer also suggested that it's better for me to see a dog and cat vet than for me to make the decisions about how to treat her, even with the help I have on here. Logical, since you can't see the critter in person and the Chinese vet can. Rami also mentioned something that none of us want to think about - euthanizing her if she is in pain and there is no way to treat her. We are nowhere close to having to make this decision, fortunately. I'll see how the wound on her side heals, then see what can be done about the lump on the jaw.
Ya know, I was thinking. If it is self-mutilation, perhaps it's the jaw lump that's driving her to it, making her crazy.
ChinaBun you're in such a hard position, I really hope that you can get all of QingQing's problems cleared up. The vet does seem to care and seems to be trying to fix her problems.
ChinaBun you're in such a hard position, I really hope that you can get all of QingQing's problems cleared up. The vet does seem to care and seems to be trying to fix her problems.
** Direct link to Rami's post: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/etherbun/message/128166
Pipp
Well-Known Member
You have to be an Etherbun member to read the post, but I'll repeat an emailsent to the RO account...
I will remind that diagnosis online is forbidden for vets, and so for lay
people, only suggestions and help can be given. Never a treatment can be
given, without seeing the animal, but suggestions. This is why it is best to
work with a vet willing to learn more. He can decide if ok or not, the way
to proceed, even if not all diagnostics can be done.
What if the abscess turns out to be something else, the rabbit is in
terrible pain, and the issue is fatal ?
(...)
> > In the photos, you can't really see how big the lump is. It
> extends out
What about ossifying fibroma and attached paper ? And especially about roots
that grew the wrong direction, and form a pocket/lump under the chin, while
curving up. Please, have a good look at the pictures and X-ray in this link
Laterolateral radiography of a rabbit suffering from advanced dental disease
and bilateral mandibular osteomyelitis
http://www.medirabbit.com/Radiography/X_ray/Radio_skull2.pdf
The location in that X-ray corresponds with that in your rabbit, and the
alopecia under the chin may indicate drooling, with hints again to a dental
problem. Definitively more investigations must be done, including an X-ray.
If this turns out to be the case, the rabbit is in bad pain, and since there
is no cure, the best way for the rabbit is to euthanize it...
Sorry, this does not sound good, but hope it will get the rabbit proper
care. I can be contacted privately if more help is needed.
Rami
ray:How is QingQing? ray:
sasray:
I will remind that diagnosis online is forbidden for vets, and so for lay
people, only suggestions and help can be given. Never a treatment can be
given, without seeing the animal, but suggestions. This is why it is best to
work with a vet willing to learn more. He can decide if ok or not, the way
to proceed, even if not all diagnostics can be done.
What if the abscess turns out to be something else, the rabbit is in
terrible pain, and the issue is fatal ?
(...)
> > In the photos, you can't really see how big the lump is. It
> extends out
What about ossifying fibroma and attached paper ? And especially about roots
that grew the wrong direction, and form a pocket/lump under the chin, while
curving up. Please, have a good look at the pictures and X-ray in this link
Laterolateral radiography of a rabbit suffering from advanced dental disease
and bilateral mandibular osteomyelitis
http://www.medirabbit.com/Radiography/X_ray/Radio_skull2.pdf
The location in that X-ray corresponds with that in your rabbit, and the
alopecia under the chin may indicate drooling, with hints again to a dental
problem. Definitively more investigations must be done, including an X-ray.
If this turns out to be the case, the rabbit is in bad pain, and since there
is no cure, the best way for the rabbit is to euthanize it...
Sorry, this does not sound good, but hope it will get the rabbit proper
care. I can be contacted privately if more help is needed.
Rami
ray:How is QingQing? ray:sas
ray:
ChinaBun
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I thought that she was doing better this morning, because she greeted me at her door this morning in her usual manner - waiting for food. The last several days she hasn't done that. But at the vet's this afternoon I saw that the bad place on her skin is still getting bigger, and she has lost .1 kilogram since Friday. The vet pointed out a spot on her leg that looks like it's going to turn into a skin problem. If this happens, then my theory that these two wounds were caused by injections is wrong. That leaves self-mutilating. As Ivory said, it's possible that the lump on the jaw is causing her pain and thus, for some bunny reason, this leads her to self-mutilate.
I didn't think the lump was causing her pain. I know how she reacts when she has a stomach ache. She sits still, with her legs drawn up under her, and she "meeps" when you try to touch her. She hasn't been doing this, so I didn't think she was in pain.
I didn't think the lump was causing her pain. I know how she reacts when she has a stomach ache. She sits still, with her legs drawn up under her, and she "meeps" when you try to touch her. She hasn't been doing this, so I didn't think she was in pain.
ChinaBun
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Update:
The wound area has been spreading since it was found. The spreading has slowed down. Below are new photos:
My students and I had just sprayed her medicine on, which is why she has her collar on and why the wound looks wet. Normally, it is now dry, which is a small step forward. One student is holding his hand over her eyes, to discourage her from running away during the medicine-applying and photo-taking. The indentation near her rump is where fur was cut away for the old wound, which sadly today had a new little fresh part. No idea why.
A closer shot of the affected area.
I have been taking her to a vet almost every day for a week and a half. Yesterday I took her to a new vet that my students had found for me, an office that was larger and had a lab and x-ray machine. Unfortunately, I was not impressed with that office. The head vet couldn't even get Qingqing out of her cage, and once I got her out, he didn't hold her. The other vet can get her out quicker than I can, and holds her when he treats her. The vet took scrapings from the sore spot and examined them in a room. I didn't see what kind of equipment they had back there. My students had trouble translating what he said, being unfamiliar with medical terminology. The general idea was that the skin problem was bacterial and fungal. He sold me a bottle of medicine, then said Qingqing had to keep her collar on for three days. He also took an x-ray of her, but she was awake for it and it didn't look good quality to me. He couldn't really tell what the lump in her jaw was. When I got home, I didn't put on the new medicine, because I didn't want to collar her for three days. I know my critter. She would be so sad that she might die if she had to wear that thing for three days.
I went back to the old doctor today and showed him the lab report and x-ray from the other office. He couldn't tell anything from the x-ray and said to continue with his medicine. I'm going to follow his advice. I trust him more than I do the new vet who wouldn't even hold my rabbit.
Though the skin problem seems to be slowly getting better, or at least it's not getting worse, she continues to have other problems:
1) She is losing weight, even though she still eats. I presume that she's not eating as much as before, though it seems like she's eating almost as much. I can feel her bones when I pet her, and especially when I'm holding her down. I've had her weighed at the vet's and she is indeed losing. She was at 3.75 kilos the first time we went to the vet about two weeks ago, a week later she was at 3.38, then a few days ago at 3.14 then today at 3.11.
2) She is not active at all. When she has the collar on, she stays in her room, either sitting still, occasionally crouching, sometimes eating. When the collar is off, she is still often laying down and occ. crouching, but sometimes coming out of her room to hop around the apartment. I noticed today that she prefered staying by the heater. I wonder if losing the weight has made her sensitive to cold. (It's a radiator heater, inside a wooden cabinet thing. She can't get hurt by it.) Tell me, when a rabbit crouches, does that mean pain or fear or something else?
3) Her poops have gotten small again. They were the size of BBs several days ago, but went back to almost their normal size. Last night and today they were smaller than BBs.
4) I was able to catch her urine in a bowl, so now I know there's no blood in it. Apparently the odd smell and reddish color are caused by the mixture of poop and pee. Does this mean anything? It started a couple of weeks ago, coincidentally (?) after the vet had me clean the wound with a dark red liquid that was something like iodine, I guess. After I stopped using this liquid, the reddish mixture in her cage pan continued, to this day.
If she continues to lose weight, I don't see how she can survive. I don't like the thought, but I'm prepared for it. I'm also thinking that there's more going on that skin problems. The vet says it takes a long time for skin problems to clear up. I need to ask if animals lose weight with skin problems. As has been said here, the lump in her jaw may be an influence in her ills, and there may be something else going wrong.
As always, I appreciate any comments and advice. If you don't feel comfortable offering advice on the open forum, please PM me.
The wound area has been spreading since it was found. The spreading has slowed down. Below are new photos:
My students and I had just sprayed her medicine on, which is why she has her collar on and why the wound looks wet. Normally, it is now dry, which is a small step forward. One student is holding his hand over her eyes, to discourage her from running away during the medicine-applying and photo-taking. The indentation near her rump is where fur was cut away for the old wound, which sadly today had a new little fresh part. No idea why.
A closer shot of the affected area.
I have been taking her to a vet almost every day for a week and a half. Yesterday I took her to a new vet that my students had found for me, an office that was larger and had a lab and x-ray machine. Unfortunately, I was not impressed with that office. The head vet couldn't even get Qingqing out of her cage, and once I got her out, he didn't hold her. The other vet can get her out quicker than I can, and holds her when he treats her. The vet took scrapings from the sore spot and examined them in a room. I didn't see what kind of equipment they had back there. My students had trouble translating what he said, being unfamiliar with medical terminology. The general idea was that the skin problem was bacterial and fungal. He sold me a bottle of medicine, then said Qingqing had to keep her collar on for three days. He also took an x-ray of her, but she was awake for it and it didn't look good quality to me. He couldn't really tell what the lump in her jaw was. When I got home, I didn't put on the new medicine, because I didn't want to collar her for three days. I know my critter. She would be so sad that she might die if she had to wear that thing for three days.
I went back to the old doctor today and showed him the lab report and x-ray from the other office. He couldn't tell anything from the x-ray and said to continue with his medicine. I'm going to follow his advice. I trust him more than I do the new vet who wouldn't even hold my rabbit.
Though the skin problem seems to be slowly getting better, or at least it's not getting worse, she continues to have other problems:
1) She is losing weight, even though she still eats. I presume that she's not eating as much as before, though it seems like she's eating almost as much. I can feel her bones when I pet her, and especially when I'm holding her down. I've had her weighed at the vet's and she is indeed losing. She was at 3.75 kilos the first time we went to the vet about two weeks ago, a week later she was at 3.38, then a few days ago at 3.14 then today at 3.11.
2) She is not active at all. When she has the collar on, she stays in her room, either sitting still, occasionally crouching, sometimes eating. When the collar is off, she is still often laying down and occ. crouching, but sometimes coming out of her room to hop around the apartment. I noticed today that she prefered staying by the heater. I wonder if losing the weight has made her sensitive to cold. (It's a radiator heater, inside a wooden cabinet thing. She can't get hurt by it.) Tell me, when a rabbit crouches, does that mean pain or fear or something else?
3) Her poops have gotten small again. They were the size of BBs several days ago, but went back to almost their normal size. Last night and today they were smaller than BBs.
4) I was able to catch her urine in a bowl, so now I know there's no blood in it. Apparently the odd smell and reddish color are caused by the mixture of poop and pee. Does this mean anything? It started a couple of weeks ago, coincidentally (?) after the vet had me clean the wound with a dark red liquid that was something like iodine, I guess. After I stopped using this liquid, the reddish mixture in her cage pan continued, to this day.
If she continues to lose weight, I don't see how she can survive. I don't like the thought, but I'm prepared for it. I'm also thinking that there's more going on that skin problems. The vet says it takes a long time for skin problems to clear up. I need to ask if animals lose weight with skin problems. As has been said here, the lump in her jaw may be an influence in her ills, and there may be something else going wrong.
As always, I appreciate any comments and advice. If you don't feel comfortable offering advice on the open forum, please PM me.
Poor Qingqing. You are doing so well with her, she's very lucky to have someone so caring helping her
For the losing weight,things like oats and sunflower seeds can help put weight on. Also, in the states they have something called nurtical, and in AUS it's called nutripet, it;s for cats and dogs and can help them when they are ill. I don't know enough about it, hopefully someone more useful will be ablong in a tick.
Urine darkens and can go redder as time passes after it was done. Also certain foods can make the urine red. Blood tends to be streaky and clotty and blotchy in the urine.
Has the vet you trust done a skin scraping? (sorry if you said, I must have missed it). Is the orange liquid betadine?
For the losing weight,things like oats and sunflower seeds can help put weight on. Also, in the states they have something called nurtical, and in AUS it's called nutripet, it;s for cats and dogs and can help them when they are ill. I don't know enough about it, hopefully someone more useful will be ablong in a tick.
Urine darkens and can go redder as time passes after it was done. Also certain foods can make the urine red. Blood tends to be streaky and clotty and blotchy in the urine.
Has the vet you trust done a skin scraping? (sorry if you said, I must have missed it). Is the orange liquid betadine?
naturestee
Well-Known Member
Ok, the hubby and I were talking to his nurse of a mother about this. Can you or the vet look at a piece of it under a microscope? Look for movement of any source. If you see any movement it could be a parasite, and then you can identify it from there. Depending on the parasite, it might be treatable with iodine, petroleum jelly (suffocates it), sunlight, or certain medicines. It depends on the type of parasite.
Otherwise, it is starting to sound and look like skin cancer. Is your vet able to do a biopsy of it to tell? Honestly, if it is cancer then there is no treatment at this stage.
Otherwise, it is starting to sound and look like skin cancer. Is your vet able to do a biopsy of it to tell? Honestly, if it is cancer then there is no treatment at this stage.
pla725
Well-Known Member
Here is some information from the University of Penn:
http://www.oncolink.com/types/article.cfm?c=22&s=69&ss=545&id=6001
Here is another link:
http://www.vetcancersociety.org/
Perhaps your vet can consult with an oncologist.
http://www.oncolink.com/types/article.cfm?c=22&s=69&ss=545&id=6001
Here is another link:
http://www.vetcancersociety.org/
Perhaps your vet can consult with an oncologist.
pamnock
Well-Known Member
Since Quigquig is wearing a collar and can't be self mutilating, has the vet considered MRSA? At this point, there needs to be testing done on the tissue (if it hasn't already been done).
Care needs to be taken when handling Quigquig until the cause of the wounds is known, as this may be something that can be spread from humans (MRSA can also be spread from humans to animals).
Has testing been done to rule out a fungal infection?
Pam
Care needs to be taken when handling Quigquig until the cause of the wounds is known, as this may be something that can be spread from humans (MRSA can also be spread from humans to animals).
Has testing been done to rule out a fungal infection?
Pam
cheryl
Well-Known Member
ChinaBun wrote:
Will be keeping QuingQuing in my thoughts
Cheryl
I really hope QuingQuing can get past this nasty infection...poor little girl
Will be keeping QuingQuing in my thoughts
Cheryl
ChinaBun
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At the vet's today the main man wasn't there, so I talked to either his partner or assistant. I'm not sure which. He might even be a student intern. I should be able to see the regular vet tomorrow. I asked today about looking at a sample under the microscope, to see if there were any parasites in the skin. The vet said it would't matter, because the medicine I put on would kill any. I'll ask again tomorrow, without putting any medicine on in the morning.
She weighed 3 kilos today, down from 3.11 yesterday. Her bones, which could be easily felt when petting her, are now easy to see when she's sitting a certain way.
I didn't mean to imply that she had her collar on all the time. I put it on after applying the medicine and keep it on for an hour or more afterwards. Because there are two types of medicine, that means she has it on for more than two hours at a time. I keep it off at night. So it's still possible that she's self-mutilating. I watch her licking the wound, and sometimes it looks like she's biting, but that may be a kind of hard licking. I've never seen anything that looked like she was hurting herself. Oh, except for the wounds.
I have started giving her Nutrical. I brought it back from the US last winter, and haven't needed it. In my mind, it was for if she stopped eating because of a bad stomach ache, so until the kind poster (all of you are kind and I appreciate your time!) mentioned Nutrical it hadn't occured to me to use it now. I apologized to Qingqing for this oversight. The first time I gave it to her was when she was wearing her collar. I put it inside the collar, as something to while her time away. Well, that's not the best idea. She loved it, but it also got all over her face! When I took the collar off later, she tried and failed to wash it all of herself. I had to pick her up, which she hates, and wash it from her. Now I have it on a plate, next to some sunflower seeds. Sadly, she hasn't touched her plate yet.
I'm going to let her sleep anywhere she wants to tonight. Normally she's in an enclosed balcony, which is colder than the rest of the apartment. She's been fine there for the past two winters, but she's so thin now. She's parked in the kitchen now. I've left half of her nighttime food next to her, and half in its usual place in her room.
The orange liquid was probably Betadine, but I haven't used it for two weeks.
I read the links on skin cancer but didn't find much information. I also searched this forum and the Net and didn't find much. The vet today said it wasn't possible. I'll ask tomorrow when the more experienced one is there.
She's not a snuggle bunny like a lot of you have. I really want to hold her and comfort her, but I think this will cause her more stress and not less. She makes the most terrible sounds when I try to catch her. She knows it means she's going to get medicine (and the dreaded collar) or go outside to the vet.
She weighed 3 kilos today, down from 3.11 yesterday. Her bones, which could be easily felt when petting her, are now easy to see when she's sitting a certain way.
I didn't mean to imply that she had her collar on all the time. I put it on after applying the medicine and keep it on for an hour or more afterwards. Because there are two types of medicine, that means she has it on for more than two hours at a time. I keep it off at night. So it's still possible that she's self-mutilating. I watch her licking the wound, and sometimes it looks like she's biting, but that may be a kind of hard licking. I've never seen anything that looked like she was hurting herself. Oh, except for the wounds.
I have started giving her Nutrical. I brought it back from the US last winter, and haven't needed it. In my mind, it was for if she stopped eating because of a bad stomach ache, so until the kind poster (all of you are kind and I appreciate your time!) mentioned Nutrical it hadn't occured to me to use it now. I apologized to Qingqing for this oversight. The first time I gave it to her was when she was wearing her collar. I put it inside the collar, as something to while her time away. Well, that's not the best idea. She loved it, but it also got all over her face! When I took the collar off later, she tried and failed to wash it all of herself. I had to pick her up, which she hates, and wash it from her. Now I have it on a plate, next to some sunflower seeds. Sadly, she hasn't touched her plate yet.
I'm going to let her sleep anywhere she wants to tonight. Normally she's in an enclosed balcony, which is colder than the rest of the apartment. She's been fine there for the past two winters, but she's so thin now. She's parked in the kitchen now. I've left half of her nighttime food next to her, and half in its usual place in her room.
The orange liquid was probably Betadine, but I haven't used it for two weeks.
I read the links on skin cancer but didn't find much information. I also searched this forum and the Net and didn't find much. The vet today said it wasn't possible. I'll ask tomorrow when the more experienced one is there.
She's not a snuggle bunny like a lot of you have. I really want to hold her and comfort her, but I think this will cause her more stress and not less. She makes the most terrible sounds when I try to catch her. She knows it means she's going to get medicine (and the dreaded collar) or go outside to the vet.
Bless your heart, you are trying so hard for her.
Given that she is losing weight, I wonder if giving her a warm water bottle might be worth doing, she then wouldn't have to waste energy keeping herself warm and the energy could go else where where it might be needed more.
It's good she likes the nutrical, another way to get it into her would be to smear it on her paws and then she would groom it off.
I wish I could offer some real advice, I've been waiting for an update on Qingqing because I've been following this story closely.
Hang in there both of you. You have people all over the world rooting for you.
Given that she is losing weight, I wonder if giving her a warm water bottle might be worth doing, she then wouldn't have to waste energy keeping herself warm and the energy could go else where where it might be needed more.
It's good she likes the nutrical, another way to get it into her would be to smear it on her paws and then she would groom it off.
I wish I could offer some real advice, I've been waiting for an update on Qingqing because I've been following this story closely.
Hang in there both of you. You have people all over the world rooting for you.
naturestee
Well-Known Member
I asked my hubby about MRSA. He's had some clients with it (developmentally disabled, they often have immune system problems and get all sorts of stuff). He said it doesn't look like any of the cases he's seen. So unless the lesions look different in rabbits than in humans, he doesn't think that's it.
Not all parasites can be treated with the same thing. So there could still be live ones in there despite what you are treating her with. I wish I could kick your vet.
ray:
Not all parasites can be treated with the same thing. So there could still be live ones in there despite what you are treating her with. I wish I could kick your vet.
ray:
