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Sammybunny

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Hello,

I'm new here and my name is Becky. I have a 3 year old Holland Lop rabbit named Sammy and a 3 year old dutch mix named Charlotte. Anyways, I have had poopy issues with Sammy in the past and they have resolved with minimal care. I have used smithicone when he seemed in pain from gas build up and there have been times when there has been a reduced amount of stool in the litter box and I worry. I give extra greens and reduce pellets and the problem resolves by the next day. Well today Sammy had some mucous on his stools and there was very little stools in the box this morning. the mucous concerns me, though he has had that in the past as well. I took him to work with me as I work at a vet, though he doesn't see rabbits routinely. I took a couple xrays and he did have gas though no blockages. Im going to take these xrays tomorrow to my vets colleage for evaluation. As for Sammy, he doesn't seem in distress. He has been eating and drinking, though very little stools have been produced. I'm thinking that it will happen tonight as he ate quite a bit. He ran around for a little bit at playtime. He does seem a little quieter though that canbe him as well. I'm concerned but hope I'm not headed for a train wreck. taking him to the vet stresses him out and I want that to be as minimal as possible. I can do a lot of treatments at home like SQ fluids and such although since he is drinking and ate a bunch of wet greens he is ok at this point. Any insights and tips would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,

becky
 
Hey Becky! Welcome to RO!

I'm not an infirmary mod by any means, but your comment on mucous in the stool jumped out at me... keep an eye on it for sure. Mucous can ID gut imbalance, or can be something more severe (mucoid enteritis).

I was wondering whether Sammy has unlimited access to timothy hay?

Could you fill out the missing info?

- Location:

- Description (Breed, color., weight):

- Age: (how long have you had her?)

- spayed/neutered?:

- Notes on Fecal and Urinary Output
- are the bunny's poops and pees normal?
- When did they last use their litterbox?
- Any unusual behavior? :

- Medical History -- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before?

- Diet - what does your bunny eat?
- when and what did s/he eat last?

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally?

- are there any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach?

- has the rabbit been outdoors?


While we are waiting for an infirmary mod, here are a few links that may be helpful to you:

Here are some Lagomorph Library Links
Gas Issues: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11931&forum_id=10
 
Typically, we suggest this protocol for dealing with gassy/potentially-gassy buns:

- Simethicone: Baby gas meds. Required.

- Get a lot of water into them: If they will drink on their own, try spiking water with a bit of apple juice or vanilla extract.
If they aren't feeling cooperative ;), syringe some water into their mouths.
If you have the knowledge to do sub-cutaneous injection, it is more efficient and faster than oral rehydration.

Pedialyte (children's rehydration drink) is super for re-hydrating buns.

- Make with the fibre: break out the canned pumpkin, and let them eat on their own. Again, uncooperative buns can be coerced with a syringe.

- Pro-biotics: Bene-bac will help balance internal systems.

- Get some exercise: Let them out for a scamper, play an active game together to get the body moving both inside and out.

- Vibration therapy: When a bun is gassy (stomach distended, but not hard), a gentle tummy rub or massage with a vibrating toothbrush can make break up the gas quite a bit. Plop them on top of the washing machine or dryer for more vibration.

- Keep warm!

As always, be sure to consult with your veterinarian should the situation deteriorate. Remember, no gut motility drugs should be given without an x-ray for blockages.

*Please note: this protocol is not appropriate for a rabbit suffering from bloat (very hard, distended stomach). Bloat must be resolved by a veterinarian. Do not attempt to massage a bloated bunny: can lead to lethal complications.




Check this Lagomorph Library Link: GI Stasis: What Everyone Should Know
 
Lets see here, Im in Modesto,CA.
Sammy is a 2 and 3/4 yo male neutered holland Lop rabbit.

I have taken him in to the vet before when he seemed uncomfortable and there was a reduced amount of stools in the litter box. He would also be off his feed for a day when this occurs. at those times everything was fine and after a day he'd be back to normal.

He does occasionally have mucous covered stools and his stools will a lot of the times be larger than my other rabbits. Most of the times they are normal though.
I was really worried though because of the amount of mucous i found in his stool and the reduced amount of stools today.

He is acting fine eating drinking and being his normal self. No abnormal movements although he sat up kinda funny earlier today at lunch.

I took him into work because I work at a vet, although not exotic vet. I took a couple radiographs and he did have some gas although no blockages or anything. I will be taking these films tomorrow to my vets colleague to see what he thinks.

Sammy ate a bunch tonight but I did give him some simithicone for the gas. He normally eats Zupreem natures promise timothy hay pellets, timothy and alfalfa hay and fresh greens. I will admit though that he is not a big hay eater and I have to be creative in getting him to eat more. He does get a sensitive stomach and I caught him eating some food my birds kicked out of their cage on Friday, so I believe that is what may have triggered this.

He seems fine at the moment but I know that bunnies can go down quick. I have access to LRS if needed though he is drinking and eating the wet greens I have been giving.

He does get stressed with a lot of handling and is more of a hands off bunny but I can do stuff if needed to him. I did massage his tummy when I gave the simithicone and it feels soft and supple and he didn't object.

Right now he is grooming himself and eating dandilion greens. No poops in the litter box though since I changed it at 6 this evening.
 
^^ I just broke up your response for older mod eyes ;)

Thank you for the in-depth information! Hopefully an infirmary mod will be along shortly.

In the meantime, the links I've posted should get you through in a jam... will be thinking of you and Sammy tonight :hug:.
 
It sounds like you've gotten a lot of good advice from Autumn. I will add a pic of a bunny with bloat instead of gas. It's great that you took rads, because that way you can be sure it's gas and not bloat. Further down this page, you can see some pics of a bunny's stomach that has bloat. http://www.lbah.com/rabbits/rabbit_x-rays.htm

If it's gas and not bloat, the advice Autumn gave already is great. If you think it's bloat, you need an exotics vet. A normal vet will try to give gut motility drugs, which can be pretty dangerous if there's a mechanical obstruction of the intestines.

I think hydration, canned pumpkin, simethicone, and a probiotic will help the most of all. A probiotic like Bene-Bac or Probios is one of those things I give to my bunnies any time their guts aren't normal.

How is Sammy today?
 
Thanks everyone for the speedy responses. This morning Sammy still seemed ok. He came out and hopped around for a bit and he ate breakfast. The concerning thing is there was no Sammy poop in the litter box that I could tell. there was poop but it looked like Charlotte's. He still is bright and alert and acting for the most part normal. I made an appt with my vet's associate who does see bunnies. i will be bringing the xrays and everything. I do believe I can do most of the nursing care myself being a vet tech, I just need the guidence of what to do. I have access to sub q fluids and meds so thats not a problem. The only issue is Sammy hates to be handled alot and that stresses him out. I guess I will let you know more after my appt. Oh and his xray is not bloat comparing to the one online, but he does have a lot of gas in the colon.
 
That's good to hear. I would still not give him any gut motility drugs, but just keep pushing the pedialyte and sub-q fluids. Some people separate bonded pairs if one is not pooping, so they can monitor more closely, but my guys get too stressed out if they're away from each other for more than a minute.
 
Mucus in the fecal matter is always caused by an irritation in the GI tract. This is usually due to a bacterial imbalance which results in a decrease in the population of beneficial bacteria. When the beneficial bacteria declines, it is a double problem. First, the decay of the beneficial bacteria is toxic. And since the beneficial bacteria controls the bad stuff, any decrease in the good bacteria will allow the growth of harmful bacteria....most often certain strains of Clostridium and sometimes E Coli.

My suggested response to this issue is to carefully review your husbandry protocols. Do anything you can to encourage the eating of more hay....and all types of hay. Make a buffet and let him graze. Keep pellets to a minimum. We use pellets only to maintain body conditioning....specifically to add Vitamin D to the diet since we keep our rabbits inside. In some cases, we use a specific antibiotic against Clostridium. This bacteria is an obligate anaerobe and not just any drug is effective. Metronidazole is the preferred drug if an antibiotic is used. And this particular drug is also an anti-inflammatory in the GI. More recently, we have been using a horse product and it has been amazing. A foundering horse, a weaning cottontail and a domestic rabbit post-statis or major GI issue has basically the same climate in the GI. We have been using a product called BioSponge (offered by Platinum Performance) in rabbits and more recently, squirrels. It is nothing short of a wonder drug in it's ability to filter and bind enterotoxins produced by certain strains of Clostridium. And as you seem to already be aware of, proper hydration is essential in these event.

Randy
 
well my vet had to go home sick and wasn't able to see his afternoon appointments. He did call to check on Sammy and was going to stay to see him if he was in crisis. Well, when I got home at lunch there were a few smooshed poopies with some more mucous on them. At least he pooped a little although not normal. He is a little subdued but it might be because of all the handling making him mad. I gave him somemore gas ex and massaged his belly more which he liked. His belly is soft and non painful to me but I could feel some of the gas bubbles in there as I massaged. I gave him some benebac which the vet recommended, I only have a few more tubes and that stuff is hard to find. I took his temp as well which was 103.1. I believe that is normal for rabbits so that is good. I am going to put a sock filled with rice in with him to lay on for his tummy. I did notice him laying like his belly hurt. What else? I dropped the xrays and a fecal sample off at the vets and he will review them tommorrow. I think I am ok at this point, and will grab SQ fluids if I need to but the least amount of handling the better with this guy.
 
Normal rabbit temp is

100-104F
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00398.htm

99-103F
http://www.exoticpetvet.net/smanimal/rabbit.html

101-104F
http://web.archive.org/web/20010816174454/www.therabbitcharity.freeserve.co.uk/vet-emergency.html

So, I found a lot of different numbers. Since he's 103, it's not that high, but is bordering on high.

I think you're doing a good job with the massage, Bene-Bac, etc. I think you need to make sure he's had at least 50mL of water today, and if not, do some sub-q's. Are you keeping up with the simethicone as well?

edit: Wanted to say that mucous can be a really bad sign, particularly in very young bunnies. Since Sammy is a bit older, it's not an emergency, but for future reference, young bunnies with mucous need to go to an emergency vet.
 
He is drinking. I caught him drinking from the bowl when I got home. I havea bowl and a water bottle, as I think they drink more that way. I will syringe some water to him in an hour or so as he seems a little stressed with all the handling. He has had 4 doses of the simithicone and one of the benebac.
On the label of the benebac it says to give every three days, but I also thought that when they are sick you give it more often.
He ate a nibble of greens but seems pretty mad or depressed with all the handling. He ate a little when I wasn't watching but when I came over he sat down and looked at me.
I read about the mucoid enteropathy. i really hope that isn't what he has, although since he's older there is less chance of it. The mucous is a clear blobby like stuff. Does this mean that his digestive system is all out of wack? The vet mentioned the ME and thats what worried me.
I think that the more I fuss over him the more mad he's going to get and I won't be able to tell if he isn't eating because he's mad or because he's getting worse. He will be mad at me for half a day sometimes when I just trim his nails. He will refuse treats then and act like I'm an ogre.
I decided to keep him and Charlotte together for now, as he needs the moral support and would be stressed if they are apart.
 
That sounds good. I only give Bene-Bac once a day, but I've never had a bunny get REALLY sick, so I'm not sure. I don't think more would hurt him.

Clear mucus isn't as bad as green or yellow. If he keeps on passing a lot of it, it could be mucoid enteropathy. It may require treatment with an antibiotic, like Randy mentioned. The vet will be able to tell from the fecal sample you gave him. As long as he's hydrated, eating, and BAR (bright alert and responsive), he should be ok until you can get the vet to see him (hopefully tomorrow AM).

He may be mad at you for a few days, but he'll be ok once he realizes the things you do make him feel better.

Good luck!
 
Just an update, he seems to be more relaxed now that I haven't messed with him for a while. He is eating a collard green leaf and some parsley as i right this. He munched a small amount of pellets but doesn't seem particularly interested, and the hay he is just scooting around but not eating. He has never been much of a hay eater, but does like alfalfa better than timothy. I did offer some because I thought it is better than no hay. He has been grooming himself, but seems more subdued.
 
Another update. I gave Sammy another dose of simithicone and massaged his belly. It seems pliable and he allowed me to do it for a while. I think he might have even passed a little gas as well. I felt my other rabbits belly for comparison and to me, they feel about the same. before I did all this, Sammy ate some more parsley and romaine lettuce and a little collards. He ate a few pellets I think and I saw him drinking water. He isn't as active as normal but doesn't seem horribly depressed either. However after I handle him he does seem stressed out and doesn't want to do anything for about a 1/2 hour afterwards. The eating is a good sign right? If he was really sick I would think that he wouldn't eat at all. However there hasn't really been any poops in the box all evening. I am hoping for a box full of poop tomorrow morning. This worrying sucks.
 
I like to hide the tasty hay--like alfalfa, orchard or oat--deep in a pile of normal hay. I'm glad he's eating! That is a good sign and hopefully start pushing stuff through. They won't eat if they're too stopped up. Fingers crossed for :litterhealthy:
 
Update on Sammy. He's still about the same. He came out this morning and evening for his normal romp. He was a little less active but not much. I gave him benebac, simithicone and a tummy massage this morning and at lunch. He seems to be laying normal just like my other rabbit. What does an uncomfortable rabbit look like? He ate a ton of greens and some pellets this evening. He isn't really eating the hay though. Still no poops. Maybe one or two misshapen ones but not normal. He is going into the vet tommorrow as my vet was sick with the flu. He did call me from home and told me if he doesn't eat start giving him sub q fluids. I have access to most treatments and meds at work, just need a guidline to what I'm treating. He is eating though which baffles me. This evening he ate about 3 tablespoons of pellets, 2 kale leaves, a couple sprigs of parsley and a couple leaves of romaine lettuce. I would think he wouldn't do that if he was really uncomfortable. I gave him some water by mouth though this morning, but the more I handle him the more stressed he will get. At least I have an appt in the morning to get this all sorted out.
 
Last post for tonight. I gave Sammy some more simithicone and I added a teaspoon of apple juice to his water. He drank quite a bit. He also ate a little more greens and a mouth full of pellets. He will sometimes lay or move like his belly hurts but not that much. I massaged his belly for quite a while as he seemed to enjoy it for a change. His belly isn't hard, but I could feel and hear the gas bubbles as I massaged. Does this mean he's suffering bad gas? I just wish he'd poop. If he pooped all other behaviors would be for the most part normal. Frustrating.
 
It sounds like bad gas to me. It's good that he's eating, but if he doesn't start pooing soon, it may be time to consider another gut x-ray and perhaps some gut motility drugs. A bunny with bad gas pain will sit in a modified "chicken" pose, with the belly really close to the ground and the body all hunched. It's kind of hard to explain. I hope he start pooing overnight...
 
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