pet over population myth

[Violet Crumbles]

JadeIcing wrote:

Yea I have never heard of that. I know we keep an eye out if one comes into the rescue or we direct them to a rescue that has what they are looking for. We have even done exchanges with rescues. They take one of ours they know they can find a home for and we take one of theirs we know we can adopt out.

See now that is what one would expect - not this outrageously unethical practice of trying to buy from breeders and passing them off as "rescues" to fill an order for a "client" and then counting it as a "success story" for your rescue. That's nuts and judging from my conversation with the rescue, something this particular rescue continues to do. I kept it together on the phone but I was furious. It fits into the same category as double counting.

 

[Tinkerbell Rabbitry]

I do agree that rescues and breeders should work together, and I am not denying that there are animals being PTS in shelters, because I know there are. I do not agree that rabbits don't like to be picked up, because all of mine like it and some of them get depressed if I don't handle them often. I think the only reason a rabbit would not like being handled is because a)they've have very little/no human contact or b) are not handled correctly.

To add to my earlier post I've been contacted by what sounds like rescues....but I was never able to figure it out as all the rabbits were gone so I didn't reply.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Violet Crumbles wrote:

In the show world, I see strong tendencies for super social rabbits that love to be picked up and be in-your-face-friendly.

That is what I've noticed too. <3 I think even the breeders who are not intentionally selecting for that kind of personality do have tendencies towards it anyway.

After all, a rabbit with an outgoing personality that will cooperate and show off for the judge will place better than a table hugger who cowers in the back of the judging coop and is hesitant to come out.

But, like you said, I've had 2 or 3 rabbits born here who weren't as fond of that attention. Most of them, though, ignore their food at feeding time and instead, hang out of their door and wait for some lovin'!

 

[Tinkerbell Rabbitry]

So do mine.

 

[Violet Crumbles]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

Violet Crumbles wrote:

In the show world, I see strong tendencies for super social rabbits that love to be picked up and be in-your-face-friendly.

That is what I've noticed too. <3 I think even the breeders who are not intentionally selecting for that kind of personality do have tendencies towards it anyway.

After all, a rabbit with an outgoing personality that will cooperate and show off for the judge will place better than a table hugger who cowers in the back of the judging coop and is hesitant to come out.

But, like you said, I've had 2 or 3 rabbits born here who weren't as fond of that attention. Most of them, though, ignore their food at feeding time and instead, hang out of their door and wait for some lovin'!

Some people don't know what they're missing. I know it's not just show rabbits that are that friendly but it seems the environment where the tendency is very strong because temperament is actually bred for. It's logical the most advancement would be seen in an actual breeding program.

 

[Myia09]

Great post Nela. Although I don't think anyone here is actually fighting or ripping each other heads off, at all. I also don't really see bashing...I see disagreements? But nobody here is being outlandishly horrible.

I work doing education and rescue. Today I start my 3 week Easter "Crusade" as my boyfriend calls it where I pass out flyers about rabbits and easter, as well as pass out rabbit care pamphlets for feed/pet stores that will take them. (Last year, NO ONE would take them)

I think I get discouraged because although there are people who try and educate; there isn't always a listening audience!

I am not saying that by buying from a breeder makes you a bad person; my rabbit Pinball (RIP) was from a breeder. Chewy was from a pet store ("Petstore rescue"). But looking back, I do regret it. Especially problems from petstores buying creates, and the conditions they are in!

I would also like to say, when I pass out pamphlets or talk, I never say "Don't buy from a breeder." I DO say "Here are some rescues, rescue first!" Except for the pamphlets I send out to stores..those are just basic care sheets

And just to poke fun, Goethe is not a person to quote about civilization or people considering he worked for the SS during the Holocaust! LOL
I didn't know that quote by him, but what a hypocritical person!

 

[missyscove]

Myia09 wrote:

And just to poke fun, Goethe is not a person to quote about civilization or people considering he worked for the SS during the Holocaust! LOL
I didn't know that quote by him, but what a hypocritical person!

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (the author of Faust among other works) lived from 28 August 1749 – 22 March 1832. He was dead before even the first world war so you must be talking about another Goethe.


I find this discussion interesting, especially juxtaposed against the journal article, "Humane strategies for controlling feral cat populations," I just read for my feline reproduction class which goes into the difficulties of defining and controlling feral cat populations within the US and only ever mentions a surplus of cats. (if I can find a link that you can access without access to a university library I'll post it. If you really want the text, I could email someone the PDF.)


Edited to add: http://www.avma.org/avmacollections/feral_cats/javma_225_9_1354.pdf

I'm not sure if you can open that link though if you're not going through a university, but it works for me so hopefully you can.

 

[Myia09]

missyscove wrote:

Myia09 wrote:

And just to poke fun, Goethe is not a person to quote about civilization or people considering he worked for the SS during the Holocaust! LOL
I didn't know that quote by him, but what a hypocritical person!

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (the author of Faust among other works) lived from 28 August 1749  – 22 March 1832.  He was dead before even the first world war so you must be talking about another Goethe. 


I find this discussion interesting, especially juxtaposed against the journal article, "Humane strategies for controlling feral cat populations," I just read for my feline reproduction class which goes into the difficulties of defining and controlling feral cat populations within the US and only ever mentions a surplus of cats. (if I can find a link that you can access without access to a university library I'll post it.  If you really want the text, I could email someone the PDF.)

I am toooootally am thinking of another German Goethe. He is a writer as well. That is what I get for not reading the entire name. I don't even know much about the other one; my boyfriend is a German Major and I heard about all the controversies. lol.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Great link, missycove. I see a lot of talk about the feral population but reading something well backed scientifically is a rare gem! I downloaded a copy to my computer so I can use it in future discussions

 

[Nela]

You are right Myia, it wasn't so bad now but I was referring to the general clashing between the groups and the general reaction most people have.I should have specified a bit more on that. Sorry. I did find a few parts a bit harsh though and I was worried about it going any further. Lol you scared me about the Goethe part

 

[Kipcha]

Myia09 wrote:

But if you expect me to believe that a prey animal like to be in picked up and carried, I disagree. Toleration and agreement is different.

I just had to comment on this one particular comment.

I think that rabbits, just like any other animal out there, are individuals and not all of them are the same as the others. I have a rabbit, Babbitty, who loves being picked up and carried around. I mean, I sit on the floor and he will clamber into my lap, jump into my arms and lay down while I walk around the house or go outside. That does not sound like toleration to me, especially considering that I usually don't plan on these little walks, but he's the one setting the schedule.

I just find it to beincorrect to say that ALL prey animals can't enjoy something because it is something that most of them don't like. Prey animals can be different too and enjoy different things, whether it be rabbits, horses, guinea pigs or any other natural prey animal. People say that rabbits are extremely nervous and can't be in crowds of people without being terrified because their prey instinct kicks in. Tell that to all my experienced performers.

On another note, wonderful post there Nela. I have to admit, I'm finding this thread to be a rather fascinating read!

 

[Violet Crumbles]

Kipcha wrote:

Myia09 wrote:

But if you expect me to believe that a prey animal like to be in picked up and carried, I disagree. Toleration and agreement is different.

I just had to comment on this one particular comment.

I think that rabbits, just like any other animal out there, are individuals and not all of them are the same as the others. I have a rabbit, Babbitty, who loves being picked up and carried around. I mean, I sit on the floor and he will clamber into my lap, jump into my arms and lay down while I walk around the house or go outside. That does not sound like toleration to me, especially considering that I usually don't plan on these little walks, but he's the one setting the schedule.

I just find it to beincorrect to say that ALL prey animals can't enjoy something because it is something that most of them don't like. Prey animals can be different too and enjoy different things, whether it be rabbits, horses, guinea pigs or any other natural prey animal. People say that rabbits are extremely nervous and can't be in crowds of people without being terrified because their prey instinct kicks in. Tell that to all my experienced performers.

On another note, wonderful post there Nela. I have to admit, I'm finding this thread to be a rather fascinating read!

"They're prey animals so they are just a certain way" is true only to a certain extent but then it gets to be an excuse for poor behavior and/or bad handling.

*Hails Caesar Millan*

Ever hear people make excuses for their dogs because of what they are? "Dogs are predators so of course, she's going to go after your cat/chicken/rabbit/child. You need to keep a closer eye on your cat/chicken/rabbit/child!". Keep in mind that these are domestic animals we are talking about here. A good deal of our rabbits' behavior is a direct reflection of our own behavior.

I drove into town to do a brief consult/training for a friend today. Her rabbit, who has it's own cage and has free reign in the house and backyard, was biting when held, showing aggression in her cage by growling and lunging, not wanting to be picked up, and squirrel-y in general. Having taken to feeding her rabbit with oven mitts on, the woman was understandably at the end of her rope.

By observing, talking, and changing just a few *minor* things in her handling technique, the owner noted a marked change in her rabbit today. The rabbit was sweet, gentle, other than grunting once did not show aggression, and enjoyed the lovin' she got. When we went over how to "pick up" her rabbit, and then tried it, the owner remarked that she could actually feel her rabbit relax. That is what I like to hear.

The rabbit owner is not new to animals. It's not like she doesn't know anything about rabbit basics and then some. Her rabbit is not a show rabbit that was bred for temperament or ease of being handled. It is very Heinz 57 and the result of an accidental breeding. Even so, and regardless of her past, evidenced by the fact that it went from a tense state to a relaxed one when picked up, it is clear that this rabbit now likes to be picked up as of today at 1pm. lol

That is an example of a random rabbit but this is how they all are (barring the very odd one) if handled properly and often. You just gotta train the human.

 

[Nela]

Every rabbit is different. Each rabbit has a different experience, different background, personality, etc. I think many factors affect whether a bunny enjoys being picked up or not. Wiggles used to ask to be picked up. She used to love being cradled. She had been abused and was terrified of human contact for a good while but then the opposite happened as I worked with her. I guess she just felt safe in my arms. She used to scratch at my legs to be pickedup... Now I have Maybelle who hates being picked up normally. She's just started to enjoy it now. Smores... No, he's not a bunny that enjoys being picked up. He's as friendly as can be but he hates being picked up.

The person handling them also makes a big difference. If you hesitate and aren't confident when holding them, more than likely, the bunny will feel it and not enjoy the experience as well.

Personally, I try not to pick up bunnies so much and prefer to sit with them. (Okay my allergies also help with me not handling them on me as much ) However, I make it a point that all my rabbits get used to being picked up. I don't care so much if they like it or not but if, for whatever reason, an emergency happens and I NEED to pick him/her up then I want to know that I can.

It's not natural for a rabbit to eat meat but then again we have rabbits around RO that love to eat it and cause their owners grief when they are scolded over it. It's not necessarily natural for a rabbit to lie on its back out in the open and yet we see that happening too. Lol. I just think it's important to remember that like most pets, they have their quirks and where you might not expect one to do something or enjoy something, you still might catch one that does.

It's not the first time a rabbit would have acted out of character We have such goofballs :biggrin2:

 

[Sweetie]

I agree with you Nela!

 

[TinysMom]

Nela wrote:

It's not the first time a rabbit would have acted out of character We have such goofballs :biggrin2:

I just have to share a story about our 6 year old Polish doe (maybe 2 pounds or so?) named Angel.

We've had to start keeping her locked up and not letting her have 'playtime unless we're around (sometimes she'd get to play for 48 hours or so).

Why?

Well - while she might run away from the holland lops when they're playing....or be a bit nervous around the flemish girls...

she'd also started ATTACKING our 35+ pound border collie named Millie. Angel would lunge at her and nip at her and literally chase her around the house. If Millie got put out in the yard - Angel would sit at the fence and keep lunging at it to threaten Millie if she came near.

However Angel also avoids Sasha, the German Shepherd mix.

It just amazes me how different rabbits are....

 

[Nela]

Lol oops... Poor Millie. :expressionless"Angel" huh? LOL. :winkShe just HAD to prove you wrong and you know it