pet over population myth

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The problem that I see with articles such as these is that the bias in them is just as apparent as the bias in articles written by hardline animal rights activists. The authors are clearly pro-breeding, anti-animal rights, which makes them just as biased as anti-breeding, pro-animal rights authors. I don't trust much of anything written by a source that isn't even making the pretense of being objective.

I'm not saying that the article doesn't make valid points or that it isn't on the money about several things - indeed, the book Redemption (which pushes for a no-kill movement) pointed out years ago that we don't have an issue of pet "overpopulation," but rather of pet abandonment and homelessness, that can easily be cured with better shelter management and public education.

Personally, I'm not sure how anyone can argue much in favor of pets being over or under populated in general. It is not a natural population being sustained by an ecosystem; it is a captive population and the degree to which the "environment" - human homes - can sustain it relies ENTIRELY on the degree to which humans are willing to step up to the plate and provide quality homes.

IDK, color me unimpressed. I can't take an article seriously if it suggests that the reason shelters "import" pets from other regions and countries is because they are money grubbing greed machines, for example - they have NO way to back that claim, might I add - it is conjecture, not a quantifiable statistic. I have worked at shelters that import from other regions, and they have one reason for it: helping where the greatest perceived need is. For example, one of the shelters I worked at up north would pull dogs from overcrowded high kill shelters down south. I knew the lady who did it, and do you want to know why? Because she visited the south, saw healthy, friendly, adoptable dogs being loaded into crude gas chambers, and said, "This doesn't have to happen; I can help these dogs." Our area had a greater availability of homes, due to a higher socioeconomic status and a lesser problem of pet homelessness. It seemed rational enough to someone who loves animals to help out those less fortunate.

I honestly find it very disheartening that two populations of people who love dogs and cats - (responsible) breeders and shelters - are more interested in sniping one another over a difference of philosophy than putting their differences aside and focusing on the real problem: why pets end up homeless. Because it is normally something HIGHLY preventable that could be worked on from both the breeding and rescue community.
 
No offense Tinkerbell, but you can't post 2 articles (NOT JOURNALS, the "Spaniel" journal is not an accredited "journal") and say "Don't debate them, they are true."

I am not saying they are false either...they could have quality data. IF they were to cite sources. While Spaniel does site some (A sparingly amount) most of them are emotional quotes, and lack actual hard concrete evidence. Some are also taken out of context, like the "importing" section.

There are some good points, but to say that shelters are not overcrowded, animals are not being put down, ect ect IS false. I would like to point out that Springer journal only took out "Shelters" information, and didn't include RESCUES. For every shelter, there are private rescues.

The main error in the Springer article is the fact they try to say every animal has a place in a home..someone is willing to adopt it. That it is shelters and humans fault for not placing these animals. It is too long of a argument to sit here and type out.

Secondly, as you breed rabbits, this article did NOT point out pets in general. They pointed out DOGS AND CATS. Rabbits can breed much more than dogs or cats, and are overpopulated, so I don't mean to be rude, but if you are using 2 articles (not actual scientific journals) to back up your reason to breed, you are using the wrong information. I am not saying that in any mean tone or way, I am simply stating these articles leave out rabbits, a quickly bred, large output animal out.

Just my two cents on the validity of these articles.
 
RandomWiktor wrote:
The problem that I see with articles such as these is that the bias in them is just as apparent as the bias in articles written by hardline animal rights activists. The authors are clearly pro-breeding, anti-animal rights, which makes them just as biased as anti-breeding, pro-animal rights authors. I don't trust much of anything written by a source that isn't even making the pretense of being objective.

I'm not saying that the article doesn't make valid points or that it isn't on the money about several things - indeed, the book Redemption (which pushes for a no-kill movement) pointed out years ago that we don't have an issue of pet "overpopulation," but rather of pet abandonment and homelessness, that can easily be cured with better shelter management and public education.

Personally, I'm not sure how anyone can argue much in favor of pets being over or under populated in general. It is not a natural population being sustained by an ecosystem; it is a captive population and the degree to which the "environment" - human homes - can sustain it relies ENTIRELY on the degree to which humans are willing to step up to the plate and provide quality homes.

IDK, color me unimpressed. I can't take an article seriously if it suggests that the reason shelters "import" pets from other regions and countries is because they are money grubbing greed machines, for example - they have NO way to back that claim, might I add - it is conjecture, not a quantifiable statistic. I have worked at shelters that import from other regions, and they have one reason for it: helping where the greatest perceived need is. For example, one of the shelters I worked at up north would pull dogs from overcrowded high kill shelters down south. I knew the lady who did it, and do you want to know why? Because she visited the south, saw healthy, friendly, adoptable dogs being loaded into crude gas chambers, and said, "This doesn't have to happen; I can help these dogs." Our area had a greater availability of homes, due to a higher socioeconomic status and a lesser problem of pet homelessness. It seemed rational enough to someone who loves animals to help out those less fortunate.

I honestly find it very disheartening that two populations of people who love dogs and cats - (responsible) breeders and shelters - are more interested in sniping one another over a difference of philosophy than putting their differences aside and focusing on the real problem: why pets end up homeless. Because it is normally something HIGHLY preventable that could be worked on from both the breeding and rescue community.
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:yes:
 
No offence, but can I ask you this, are you a breeder or HRS supporter? I'm a good breeder and I do argue that good breeders have no part in this issue.
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You saw me saying that responsible breeders are part of the problem where, exactly? :?I have not made that arguement at all. What I have argued is that I felt this article was biased - which it undeniably was just as much as many articles by AR groups are.

And I am definitely a HRS supporter. Why wouldn't I be? They have been at the front lines of promoting a relationship between people and rabbits on par with the relationship between people and cats/dogs. They have educated thousands of people about the excellent companions rabbits can be when you make them part of the household, provide them with proper nutrition and vet care, etc. Supporting a group that has done as much excellent work as they have does not make me an extremist by any stretch.
 
I never said that you had said I just asked a question. I have however many many times been told by HRS supporters that I am to blame for this because I breed rabbits.

@ Myia09 I'm editing that part out.

It won't let me now.

ETA I've also heard rescues contacting breeders, who have a client that is wanting a specific breed but they don't have any in that breed, so they go looking for a breeder that does and gets one for them from that breeder.
 
Assuming/implying that an association with HRS and rabbit rescue means a rabid anti-breeding stance is unfortunately just as incorrect as assuming breeding means one is irresponsibly churning out rabbits and condemning thousands to homelessness and euthanasia.

I personally am more concerned with IRresponsible breeding - the kind of breeding that mass produces rabbits for chain pet stores, the kind where rabbits are bought and sold without the remotest assurance that the owner is ready for the responsibility and expense of a rabbit. Because that sort of breeding and selling DOES very directly contribute to homelessness when unprepared, impulsive, and sometimes even mislead owners realize they can't handle their new bunny.
 
"blame for this."

What is this? Overpopulation? I think it is breeding, failure to spay and neuter, and general lack of knowledge of husbandry that is at fault for rabbit overpopulation. It is not one sided.

So I guess, by in turn, I am blaming you? I am not personally attacking you. It would be false to say there are no good, responsible breeders. I have problem with people who breed just to breed; low quality rabbits, mixed rabbits, rabbits just because. Breeding rabbits with no certainty of them having a home. Breeding then selling an unfixed rabbit so the person who buys it can further breed it (accidently or not)

My biggest problem is people who buy from breeders instead of adopting. That is probably the main problem. If they didn't buy, people wouldn't breed. Designer bunnies, dogs, cats, whatever. They HAVE TO have a lionhead. Because if they don't have a lionhead, there life would be dramatically different. What happened to adopting for personality, not looks? I am not innocent by this either. I am just glad I realized it.
 
@ Myia09 I'm not using these articles to "justify" my breeding. Each of my does have about 2 litters every year, yes they are capable of having many more but I breed for quality rather than quantity, and so do all my friends that are breeders. All of my pet rabbits go to loving homes, and if for some reason they can not keep their rabbit, I will take it back, but I will ask why. I also apologize if I have offended ether of you, but this is my opinion.
 
I don't think anyone is using articles to support their reason for breeding. Reputable breeders are not breeding in order to up the population of rabbits. So whether there is an "overpopulation" or not, that will not affect the goal of reputable breeders.

Myia09 wrote:
My biggest problem is people who buy from breeders instead of adopting. That is probably the main problem. If they didn't buy, people wouldn't breed. Designer bunnies, dogs, cats, whatever. They HAVE TO have a lionhead. Because if they don't have a lionhead, there life would be dramatically different. What happened to adopting for personality, not looks? I am not innocent by this either. I am just glad I realized it.
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I'm a little concerned about your reasoning here. Why is it a bad thing to purchase a rabbit from a breeder rather than purchasing from a shelter?

No matter what kind of animal I bring into my home, I have very specific demands. For example, there are certain breeds of horses that I like because of their temperament or coat pattern. So I don't see anything wrong with waiting until I can find the look I want, along with personality. If that happened to pop up in a shelter or rescue, great! But if not, reputable breeders are great sources for pets. They can give you the animal's entire health history, genetic history, etc. On the whole, personalities also tend to be great because many breeders focus on breeding for temperament. Whereas, when you adopt an animal, many of them (in the case of bunnies) tend to be the type that don't like to be held or handled, just because they don't come from backgrounds that spent much time with them.

Shelter and rescue animals are very hit or miss. It is excellent that some people are able to find their perfect new furry friend there and give them a good home. But if not, that's okay too. People are less likely to neglect or give up their animals if they spend time and money finding the animal they really want...regardless of where it comes from. That's the #1 way to start fixing the homelessness issue!:)
 
Depending on location, it may be a challenge to get a rabbit from a shelter/rescue.I can only think of one rabbit rescue, and that's Magic Happens in Baton Rouge.

The one problem I have with breeders are the ones that say "We're breeding for easter bunnies".You can't always tell who wants a bunny just to have something small for easter. If I do have a litter ready around easter, I have a rule that I won't sell them the week before or of easter. I'm amazed at the number of people that need that bunny the week of easter and can't wait till the week after.I would like to think that every person that gets a rabbit is a dedicated owner that's aware of the responsibility and wants a long time pal/pet. Sadly, that's not the case, and lack of information on the care and maintnence of the breed contributes to the problem.
I think the dedicated breeders do help with the education of the public
 
Wow. I found your reasoning to be extremely heartbreaking for shelter bunnies and shelter animals all over the country.

First off, they are not hit or miss. Rabbits DON'T like to be held in general. But to stereotype all shelter bunnies (or most) as "don't like to be held or handled" is extremely offensive and incorrect. Very incorrect. I wonder how many shelters you have been to. Most rescue bunnies I meet are some of the sweetest most loving rabbits ever. MOST breeders of the rabbit nation DON'T breed for temperament..the breed for quality. ND and other dwarf breeds are notorious for their bad attitudes and lack of wanting to be held or picked up. And yes, I have researched this, and yes I have been to rabbit shows, and yes I have talked to breeders!

I don't think comparing horses to rabbits is an accurate example either. There isn't as many in shelters, and you do need a good temperament for a horse to ride or to use. But see, with your logic, people DON'T look at rescue first, because they are buying "damaged goods" that can't be possibly as good as from a breeder. A horse in a rescue is going to be "ugly" "stubborn" "sickly" from what your post says. (Because only if you buy a bred horse will it be pretty, good temperament, and healthy)

Yes, paint horses are extremely pretty. Most have great temperaments. But that doesn't make them ANY BETTER THAN THOSE "PLAIN OLD HORSES" IN THE RESCUES OR IN FACT ANY DIFFERENT!

Many people will tell you their rescue animals are more grateful and loving than bred animals because they know what you did for them!

Just because a rabbit doesn't come from a pedigree doesn't make it an unhealthy, risky, grumpy, non social rabbit. To even say most are is EXTREMELY inconsiderate.

And this goes for ALL animals.

And the #1 way to fix homelessness is to find homes for the HOMELESS pets, IE FROM RESCUES AND SHELTERS. Not to BREED MORE FOR EVEN MORE HOMES. It IS A BAD THING because there are thousands of poor rabbits facing euthensia because people don't want to adopt. On reasoning like your presenting. Rescued rabbits must be damaged goods. They are damaged good because they were thrown away by irresponsible breeders and irresponsible owners. And that is not their fault. Maybe people shouldn't be so lazy and get off their butts AND SPEND THE TIME TO HELP THAT BUNNY?! If it is such the case rescued bunnies are that way.

That is applying the same reasoning as a child born in the slums is less of a human, and is a poor excuse of a human compared to a child born in a rich, well caring family. The same exact reasoning! That somehow they are broken and will never be normal.

I wasn't offended by you Tinkerbell. I thought the articles made great points. I see your opinion and it is based on logic and reason, even if I don't agree with it. But Julie, I find your post extremely disheartening and honestly enraging. It is a huge insult to rescue bunnies and animals everywhere.

:soapbox

I totally may be losing my cool here..but to generalize shelter bunnies that way really ticks me off.
 
First of all I like to point out: why do you think that they are spaying and neutering? There IS an overpopulation of dogs and cats. That is what spaying and neutering are trying to control the population of pets.

There are responsible and irresponsible breeders out there and the irresponsible ones are the ones who don't care about the animals. The resposible ones will have a spay and neuter contract to prevent more dogs and cats into this world.

My point is that there is an overpopulation problem, there are a lot of homeless pets in the streets and in shelters.
 
Myia09- I am sorry that you felt that I was generalizing anything. That was not my goal, I was just hoping to explain that everyone's needs or wants are different.

I am certainly not saying that there are not sweet shelter bunnies out there. I am only saying that many of them come from very sad situations in which they may not have had much (if any) human contact. My experience has been that bunnies do love to be held and fawned over when they have had that kind of interaction since they were young. I don't blame the rabbits for the way they've been treated, but as many adopters have experienced, the rabbits from those situations are not always comfortable with that kind of interaction and more prefer playing with you on the floor. Again, it is wonderful that some owners learn how to make their bunnies comfortable and interact with them on that level. But some people do want cuddly lap bunnies. It is not true that most people don't breed for temperament. It's true that the overall goal has been to improve the structure and soundness of the breeds, but in recent decades, the type on rabbits has become very consistent and breeders have shifted towards focusing on temperament because rabbits are largely pets now, rather than just production animals like they were in the past. Not every rabbit is going to be a cuddle bun, but many of us do strive for that. I know I personally like even my show rabbits to be friendly pets.

I wasn't trying to compare to horses either, but just giving an example that many people do prefer different coat patterns and such in any animal. And that I feel like that's okay. It's not that being white makes an animal different from a black one. But if that person loves white animals, then they are a great home for a white one, you know?

I'm sorry that my post came off differently, and I did not mean that there is any group that is best. Only that every pet owner deserves the opportunity to obtain the pet that is best for them. I don't think anyone should be given a turned shoulder for their decision, whether it is from a rescue or a breeder.

I'd rather not get into the debate about whether or not breeding is "okay", because I don't think that was the goal of this post. But I did just want to explain where I was coming from, I hope that explains better.
 
It won't let me edit my post anymore. :/ But I was going to add another example I just thought of-

I'm sure you've heard that some dog breeds are prone to hip displaysia (sp?). So that is another case where, if a person wants a dog of that breed, they may seek out a breeder that has been working on improving the soundness of their animals.

It is absolutely fantastic that so many people across the U.S. have opened up their homes to pets that were in need, no matter what their origin is! I was just initially trying to respond to what you said in one of your previous posts:

"My biggest problem is people who buy from breeders instead of adopting. That is probably the main problem."

Because there are just some cases where people do seek out breeders, for various reasons. I don't think that's better or worse than seeking out pets in a rescue. My point was just that everyone has different needs and different things they're looking for in their new pet. :)

Kind of off topic now, I just wanted to let you know that I think maybe I communicated my original thoughts wrong. I only want what's best for every animal, just like you do. :)
 
I think in Ireland there is definitely a cat and dog overpopulation.

There's not a rabbit overpopulation here and it's hard to find rabbits for sale here (from breeders or in shelters), so I have no problem with breeding rabbits and selling them to good homes. I have a problem with bad breeders especially ones who sell to pet shops.

I don't have a problem with being a good breeder of purebred dogs (or cats) either, because I think that people will always want to buy them, so it's better that they find a good breeder than go to a puppy farm or bad breeder. It can be hard to find good breeders here, so I think there's a need for them.

I know that people could just get their purebred dogs from shelters, but everyone isn't going to do that. People are still going to want to get puppies from breeders, and if there are no good breeders, then they might go to bad ones more.

All my dogs are from breeders cos I wanted Cavaliers, for their sweet personality, and their size because I don't have a huge garden. All cats are more similar so my cats are rescues, because I didn't want a specific type.
 
I think it may come down to expectations. Every one has expectations to some degree for their new pet. How do you see it fitting into your life? What kinds of traits do you really want them to have?

If a person has very specific expectations they very well may be better off going to a breeder because then they can have a check list of traits that they can reliably get. They will be happy with the pet and give it a good home.

Say the same person tries to get a shelter pet and only gets half of the things they want from an animal. Chances are they will become frustrated and the animal will have either a suboptimal home or end up in a shelter. No one wins.

I personally rescue all of my animals. However, one of my "expectations" is that I want to feel good saving a life. I'm much more linient on particular looks, or temperment in general. I am willing to put a lot of time into helping animals heal emotionally from a rough start.

If people are honest about what expectations they have from the beginning perhaps we would have better matches and fewer pets ending up in the shelters. Just my two cents.



And for whatever it is worth, one of my rescue bunns loves to cuddle. The other one not so much yet. It just melts my heart to have my bun that came from a rough background nudge my ankle and ask to be snuggled. That is why I go back for more.
 
MiniLopHop wrote:
If people are honest about what expectations they have from the beginning perhaps we would have better matches and fewer pets ending up in the shelters. Just my two cents.
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Exactly! Very good point, that's what I was trying to get at.:D
 
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