Pellet ration and fecal appearance: suggestions, please...

[Jenk]

I'd like some input regarding pellet ration and fecal output, based on my Cali boy's situation.

Late last year, my Cali, Pinkerton, lost nearly 1 lb. He had weighed 9.4 lbs. on a diet of 1/4 C. of pellets, about 3-4 C. of greens, and unlimited timothy hay daily. He dropped to 8.6 lbs. on the same diet.

Pink's weight loss may have been E. cuniculi related, and he was treated for it to err on the side of caution. But I was told by a vet--not my pets' vet--that a Cali's weight can decrease somewhat between 3 and 4 years of age. (Pink turned 4 years old this spring.)

So besides treating Pink for a possibly active EC infection, I slowly increased his pellet ration from 1/4 C. to 1/2 C. per day. His weight eventually reached/held at about 9.25 lbs.

Pink's fecals, over time, have turned very dark--so dark brown to the point of looking black. I think this color change has occurred as his pellet ration has increased. His fecals have also gone from always being round to being somewhat oblong and just, well, not quite round.

Is it possible that his system just doesn't do well on 1/2 C. of pellets? Or maybe I should stop feeding him pellets in the AM and PM. (I've been feeding him 1/4 C. in the AM and another in the PM.) The reason I divided his pellet feeding is because he was wolfing down his pellets within 40 minutes' at times. But now he seems to take a bit longer to eat even 1/4 C. ration, so maybe I could try feeding him pellets only in the morning again.

I've been concerned about Pink losing weight if I reduce his pellet ration--and I don't even know what to reduce it to at this point. Still, another vet said Pink would be fine at around 9 lbs. Ugh... I'm confused about what to even try, much less to know what might get Pink's fecals back to normal while allowing him to hold a steady weight.


Thank you,

Jenk

 

[missyscove]

Is there anything unusual about his fecals other than the color? Pellets should be more easily digestible than hay so you'd be seeing more digested matter and less actual plant matter which could account for the change in color. When he dropped a pound, was he obviously underweight or did your vet still feel that he was healthy?

 

[Jenk]

missyscove wrote:

Is there anything unusual about his fecals other than the color? Pellets should be more easily digestible than hay so you'd be seeing more digested matter and less actual plant matter which could account for the change in color.

As I've mentioned, there's a shape issue, too. When Pink received less pellets, his fecals were less dark/dense and more of them were round. As his pellet ration slowly increased, his fecals went from nearly 100% being round to many of them being somewhat oblong, or simply not round.

I think part of the issue also has been ingested fur lately, in spite of my thorough daily grooming sessions with him. He also gets Bromelain (mixed with water) when shedding, though maybe he needs to receive it daily when shedding.

Yesterday, Pink's fecals turned darker and even shiny in appearance; I suspected a gut slowdown brewing, possibly due to ingested fur; so I gave him EVOO with some Critical Care--1 mL to 2 mL, respectively. Last night and earlier today, he's passed some visible fur, so my hunch may have been correct.

When he dropped a pound, was he obviously underweight or did your vet still feel that he was healthy?

He was not obviously underweight--i.e., excessively bony--per my vet. The only thing that I noticed, which became obvious after I realized his weight drop, was that he looked smaller overall size. Another vet said that Pink would fine at about 9 lbs.

At the time of his weight decrease, Pink was receiving only 1/4 C. of pellets daily, but his appetite for hay and thirst increased greatly; that was another reason why my vet suspected possible E. Cuniculi, after having ruled out everything else under the sun. So I don't know of Pink's near-10% weight loss was due mainly to EC, or if it was partly due to him reaching full adulthood. (I believe some of it was due to EC, though, since a near-10% drop is considerable.)

 

[LakeCondo]

Are the oval poops look like they contain the same amount as the round ones, or more, or less?

 

[caustin4]

Try giving probiotics. If this is a gut issue probiotics will sometimes do wonders. Probios is good, there's also benebac, and many other horse probiotics work.

 

[Jenk]

LakeCondo wrote:

Are the oval poops look like they contain the same amount as the round ones, or more, or less?

I think that, for the most part, Pink's fecal output is a mix of both shapes--or at least has been since I've increased his pellet ration. If I had to take an accurate count, he probably has slightly more round fecals than not.

Pink's fecals have become more "off" in the past two days'. He's also been acting lethargic in terms of just resting when out of his pen for exercise. Besides giving him EVOO yesterday, I gave him Bromelain then and once today. I'm hoping that it's a minor digestive issue that can be resolved.

Pink's still defecating, but what he passed this evening--after I fed him 3 Tbsp. of pellets earlier tonight--is again nearly black and shiny in appearance. (I didn't feed him pellets last night or this morning; my goal was to give his gut a break and possibly help fur pass through by encouraging him to eat more hay.)

Jenk

 

[Jenk]

caustin4 wrote:

Try giving probiotics. If this is a gut issue probiotics will sometimes do wonders. Probios is good, there's also benebac, and many other horse probiotics work.

Pink has been on a horse prebiotic/probiotic called Pro Bi for a long time. I once told a holistic vet that Pink seems to do better on Pro Bi; he said I could safely give Pro Bi long-term if I give it five days on, two days off. That's what I've been doing. Still...

...I wonder if Pro Bi is a part of the issue. I recently purchased a new bottle and notice that the formulation has changed somewhat--even though a rep. at the company claims that it hasn't. (The different ingredient list doesn't lie.) I started using the new bottle at the end of July and wonder if the new formulation isn't agreeing with Pink--or if it'll just take him time to adjust to it.

There's also the issue of hay. Pink's eaten Oxbow timothy hay for 1.5 years'. I recently reintroduced Sweet Meadow Farm's 1st-cut hay by giving him a small handful mixed with Oxbow's hay. He's never smoothly acclimated to a quick change in hay, so I thought that a small/slow increments would be okay; maybe not.


Jenk

 

[majorv]

1/4c pellets per day isn't very much for a Californian. I give my 2lb Polish more than that in a day. I understand that youre giving him greens, too, but 1/2 cup sounds more in line with what a Cal would get. As a longtime Cal breeder said to me once, you should not feel the bones on a Californian. If you do then they're underweight.

 

[Jenk]

majorv wrote:

1/4c pellets per day isn't very much for a Californian. I give my 2lb Polish more than that in a day. I understand that youre giving him greens, too, but 1/2 cup sounds more in line with what a Cal would get. As a longtime Cal breeder said to me once, you should not feel the bones on a Californian. If you do then they're underweight.

Pink's been receiving 1/2 C. of pellets. Granted, I started to slowly increase his pellet ration from 1/4 C. to 1/2 C. in late winter of 2011. Before then, my vet said that 1/4 C. was fine, and Pink wasn't overly thin. As I've said, he held at 9.4 lbs. when he used to get 1/4 C. of pellets, greens, and unlimited hay.

In late winter 2011, when Pink's weight dropped to 8.6 lbs., his spinal column still wasn't obvious to the touch. If I'd ever been able to feel it, I'd have changed his diet sooner.

I should also mention that rabbit-savvy vets in my area are more anti-pellet than not. They advocate that if any pellets be fed, they be a minimum amount. So I've had this advice to work with since bringing rabbits into my home. It's all very confusing--especially when experts seem to disagree with one another.

Jenk

PS: Pink passed a small and mostly okay pile of fecals during the overnight period. But one of them was more torpedo shaped than usual; I plan to still treat him as if he's dealing with ingested fur, as that could be a large part of the issue.

 

[majorv]

You should do what you think is best.It's difficult (tho not impossible)for a rabbit to get the proper nutrition without adequate pellets.The Merck Veterinary Manual mentions thatgood qualitypellets provide the proper nutrients for rabbits. I disagree with any vet who is anti-pellet,but I know it can be hard not tofollow a vet's advice....

 

[Jenk]

majorv wrote:

You should do what you think is best.It's difficult (tho not impossible)for a rabbit to get the proper nutrition without adequate pellets.The Merck Veterinary Manual mentions thatgood qualitypellets provide the proper nutrients for rabbits. I disagree with any vet who is anti-pellet,but I know it can be hard not tofollow a vet's advice....

I agree. And I plan to continue feeding Pink 1/2 C. of pellets per day and treat him as if he's having gut slowdown due to fur. Granted, I've been grooming him daily since the start of his shed in mid-May, which has never officially ended. (This ongoing shed is unusual for him.)

It's also possible that Pink's gut overreacted to two tiny pieces of dried papaya--one piece fed on two consecutive days--prior to his fecal changes. I'm back to giving him Bromelain mixed with water instead, which has never upset his gut and seems to help him pass the fur he manages to ingest.

Pink's fecals seem better; if they decrease in size--or turn unusually smooth--again, I may give another 1-mL dose of EVOO. EVOO seems to magically make excess fur appear; it must help to clear it out from wherever it manages to hide inside the digestive tract.

 

[LakeCondo]

Very few vets really are experts on rabbit nutrition.

 

[Jenk]

LakeCondo wrote:

Very few vets really are experts on rabbit nutrition.

It certainly does seem that way. I feel that I've been given not-the-greatest dietary advice over the last five years' time by some very competent, rabbit-savvy vets. And, trusting their advice, I've done wrong by my bun charges.

 

[majorv]

It's like a good friend of mineonce saidabout vets. She won't go to any vet who doesn't have first hand experience with the animal she needs them totreat. At the time, she was talking about horses, but I think you can apply it to rabbits, too. Book knowledge is nice, but for many questions I have about our rabbits I'll go to another, experienced, breeder before I ask a vet.Greens and veggies are nice for adding somevariety, but if you want a healthy rabbit your best bet is to rely on good quality pellets & hayas their main source of nutrition. We can point to our own rabbits as proof.