Panicking! Sneezing& white discharge from nose :(

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bunnyluvns

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Hi everyone,

A couple nights ago my 11 yr old mini rex, Bunny, had a huge sneezing fit. I thought maybe she'd just inhaled some dust from her hay.

She's sneezed a few times since then, & just now I saw some white mucus at the edge of her nose :(. I'm terrified it could be the dreaded snuffles. I made an appt with a rabbit savvy vet but the earliest they can get me in is Fri. at 11:30.

I booked the appt but am just wondering if i should try to get her in tomorrow at some other vet clinic? I live near Denver & there are several vet savvy vets in the area. IF (God forbid) it is snuffles how huge of an emergency is it? I mean, could she die in the next day & a half? Her appetite is excellent, she's pooping & seems normal in every other way, it's just the occasional sneezing & white discharge.

Also, if it's ok to wait till Fri. to take her in, is there anything special I should do for her in the meantime to make her more comfortable?

Sorry for the long post, I'm just beside myself with worry :(. Thanks in advance for any advice!
 
I'm not confident enough in my knowledge about URIs and Pasturella (aka snuffles) - both of which are possibilities - to say with 100% certainty that it's fine to wait... but based on what I know, it really isn't an emergency as long as she's eating/drinking/pooping/peeing/behaving normally, doesn't appear to be in pain and isn't having any trouble breathing - I can't think of any reason beyond those why she wouldn't be just fine until Friday morning, assuming there's nothing to indicate that she's suddenly getting worse.

The "dread" of Pasturella is that it's not really curable - it's the sort of thing that will always have to be "managed"... often with periods of remission but occasional flare-ups.

A URI is just as likely based on her symptoms. Those *are* curable, but are often difficult to shake. Vets often start with a broad-spectrum antibiotic; however, many URIs are resistant and don't respond to broad-spectrum stuff. If that's the case, a culture needs to be done to help the vet select an appropriate targeted antibiotic to treat with.

To the best of my knowledge, those are the most serious possibilities and neither is a swift killer of bunnies - they're chronic/long-term issues. If breathing or eating become affected, however, that definitely escalates the situation to being an emergency.

(In other words, I'm like 95% sure there's no reason she can't wait until Friday unless something changes - I just want to make sure you're aware that there may be something I don't know that could play a role in whether or not this should be considered an emergency. Also, take a deep breath and try to relax however much you can! You sound like a wonderfully concerned bunny parent and I'm sure the two of you will get through this.)
 
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Hmm, I just noticed her age... it's worth noting that I have no idea if that could be an important factor in deciding whether or not the vet trip can wait until Friday, heh. If her health has been declining and/or her immune system has seemed to get weaker as she aged, that could be a reason to get her in faster.

If in doubt, it never hurts to go sooner - it'll certainly help you feel less anxious!
 
Imbrium, thank you, you have made me feel SOOOOOOOOOOO much better!! The lady who gave her to me once told me that snuffles are incurable & that rabbits who have them have to be put to sleep. :(. But this lady used to breed & show rabbits, so maybe if you're in that line of work you DO have to put down rabbits who have snuffles because of course you don't want them infecting the others. Bunny is the only rabbit I have so luckily I don't have to worry about her infecting anyone else :).

I will definitely keep a very close eye on her till her vet appt. & if she shows any signs of taking a turn for the worse will get her in with rabbit savvy vet, even if it means driving her to CSU in Ft. Collins.

Thank you again!!!
 
Oh...... I just saw your 2nd post.... Well, I'm not sure now what to do..... I mean, her appetite is very, very good, so that's a good sign, isn't it? Hmmmmmmm.......
 
I'm not confident enough in my knowledge about URIs and Pasturella (aka snuffles) - both of which are possibilities - to say with 100% certainty that it's fine to wait... but based on what I know, it really isn't an emergency as long as she's eating/drinking/pooping/peeing/behaving normally, doesn't appear to be in pain and isn't having any trouble breathing - I can't think of any reason beyond those why she wouldn't be just fine until Friday morning, assuming there's nothing to indicate that she's suddenly getting worse.

The "dread" of Pasturella is that it's not really curable - it's the sort of thing that will always have to be "managed"... often with periods of remission but occasional flare-ups.

A URI is just as likely based on her symptoms. Those *are* curable, but are often difficult to shake. Vets often start with a broad-spectrum antibiotic; however, many URIs are resistant and don't respond to broad-spectrum stuff. If that's the case, a culture needs to be done to help the vet select an appropriate targeted antibiotic to treat with.

To the best of my knowledge, those are the most serious possibilities and neither is a swift killer of bunnies - they're chronic/long-term issues. If breathing or eating become affected, however, that definitely escalates the situation to being an emergency.

(In other words, I'm like 95% sure there's no reason she can't wait until Friday unless something changes - I just want to make sure you're aware that there may be something I don't know that could play a role in whether or not this should be considered an emergency. Also, take a deep breath and try to relax however much you can! You sound like a wonderfully concerned bunny parent and I'm sure the two of you will get through this.)

No, I totally understand there's no way anyone can give me a 100% guarantee that she'll be ok till Friday :). But I know some health issues are bigger emergencies than others. Like if a rabbit isn't eating or pooping they can sometimes die within a few hours. I didn't know if the same can be true of respiratory infections. But of course you're right, it depends on the age & overall health of the bun, how severe the infection is, etc.

It's 8 pm Wed. here. I think 1st thing in the morning I'll call some other rabbit vets & see if I can possibly get her in tomorrow. Like you said, if nothing else it'll alleviate my anxiety!!


Thank you Jennifer, I really appreciate your replies!!

Mary
 
The best advice I can give is to trust your instincts - she'll probably be fine until Friday, but if you see anything that makes you think otherwise, then listen to your gut!

Snuffles is incurable, but no rabbit-savvy vet would suggest euthanizing an otherwise healthy bunn over a case of the snuffles! I don't believe most breeders would put a rabbit down for that, either - most seem to be more likely to place the rabbit in a pet-only home willing to deal with a somewhat "special needs" bunny. There are a variety of options available (both medical and homeopathic) to manage Pasturella's symptoms.

Let us know how the vet visit goes and what her diagnosis is!
 
The best advice I can give is to trust your instincts - she'll probably be fine until Friday, but if you see anything that makes you think otherwise, then listen to your gut!

Snuffles is incurable, but no rabbit-savvy vet would suggest euthanizing an otherwise healthy bunn over a case of the snuffles! I don't believe most breeders would put a rabbit down for that, either - most seem to be more likely to place the rabbit in a pet-only home willing to deal with a somewhat "special needs" bunny. There are a variety of options available (both medical and homeopathic) to manage Pasturella's symptoms.

Let us know how the vet visit goes and what her diagnosis is!

Thank you Jennifer, I think that's excellent advice. I know from past experince ignoring my gut instinct usually turns out badly. So I'll see how she's feeling in the morning & if necessary will get her in someplace even if it has to be on an emergency basis. Right now she's wolfing down some hay & is acting like her normal self so hopefully she'll stay that way :)

At least now I know snuffles (if that's what it is) is not an automatic death sentence, so THANK YOU for putting my mind at ease over that!! I might actually get some sleep tonight :)
 
Jennifer has pretty much covered it. I agree that it's likely that as long as your bun isn't showing respiratory distress or difficulty breathing, and is acting normal in every other way, that an appointment Friday should be fine. But if you have any concerns it would be good to call the vet to just make sure. The most important thing you can do is see the absolutely best rabbit vet available. If it is this vet, then see this vet. Going to a good rabbit vet can be the difference between getting the correct treatment for your rabbit or not.

This is also some additional info that I posted on another thread, that may be useful in getting the best treatment for your bun.

Often vets here in the US only treat with antibiotics. I've read of vets in the UK also prescribing metacam to reduce inflammation and bisolvon to help thin the mucous so it can more easily be expelled(though a different similar med would need to be used as this isn't available in the US). Nebulising with saline can also be helpful.. The addition of these treatments can help with clearing the nasal passages and help with the rabbits breathing. I would also think that it would have some effect on helping with the infection and preventing it from turning into pneumonia, but this is speculation on my part. Some rabbit owners have found adding Echinacea to their rabbits diet, helpful as well. But these other treatments aren't commonly given or done here, so it is something you would need to bring up with your vet if antibiotics aren't proving to be entirely effective on their own, or you are interested in adding these to your buns treatment in the beginning.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Bacterial/URI.htm
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sneezing.html

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f28/finding-vet-13366/
http://rabbit.org/vet-listings/
 
Thank you Jenny for the additional info!! I will read the articles right now. Thank God, Bunny has always been healthy so I've never had to deal with anything like this & was panic-stricken when I saw that white mucus....but I feel better now knowing there ARE treatments available.

The vet I'm taking her to is highly recommended by the Colorado HRS so I feel pretty confident she'll get good care.

It's interesting you mentioned metacam - even if this illness hadn't come up I was going to get her in soon & see about getting metacam or some other pain reliever. Considering she's 11 & I've let her get overweight, i thought there's a decent chance she could have some arthritis. I'll definitely discuss all this with the Dr.

Going to read those articles now. Thank you so much!!

Mary
 
Thanks (as always!) for vetting my hunches and providing extra info, Jenny :).

I second the part about picking the best vet you can - this can get your bunny feeling better faster *and* make a significant difference financially, as a vet very knowledgeable with a particular problem is generally more efficient in narrowing things down to find a treatment that's effective for your bunn's specific case (saving you and your bunny wasted time and money in many cases).

I'm so glad I was able to put your mind at ease, bunnyluvns! A very concerned and proactive owner is a wonderful thing but at the same time, there's nothing to be gained in worrying more than you need to for lack of viable information!
 
Thanks (as always!) for vetting my hunches and providing extra info, Jenny :).

I second the part about picking the best vet you can - this can get your bunny feeling better faster *and* make a significant difference financially, as a vet very knowledgeable with a particular problem is generally more efficient in narrowing things down to find a treatment that's effective for your bunn's specific case (saving you and your bunny wasted time and money in many cases).

I'm so glad I was able to put your mind at ease, bunnyluvns! A very concerned and proactive owner is a wonderful thing but at the same time, there's nothing to be gained in worrying more than you need to for lack of viable information!

Well, thank God it all went very well today. The vet, who is a VERY nice lady & is recommended by the HRS, put Bunny on a 10 day course of oral antibiotics & antibiotic eye drops. After 10 days I'll take her back for a re-check & we'll take it from there.

It was such a HUGE relief to hear the Dr. say that other than the URI, Bunny is in good health. Her lungs & heart sound good, her teeth are in excellent shape, her skin, coat & ears look good....i was just so grateful & relieved that my little girl is doing ok!! Now we just need to get the URI under control, & hopefully the meds will do that.

Thanks so much for your advice & moral support Jennifer & Jenny, you helped me get through a very stressful week!! :happybunny:
 
I'm so glad things went well... I hope the antibiotics do the trick with one round! Do you know the name of the antibiotics given?

I hope so too! Giving her the oral stuff is easy because I just squirt it on some mashed banana & she wolfs it down :). And it's only once a day.

But the eye drops that I have to give twice a day, that isn't going as well. For every 1 drop i get in her eye, 4 drops land on her cheeks, the furniture, everywhere but in her eye. This morning I managed to wrap her in a towel & get some drops in her eyes. But she was very stressed over it. I don't want her to run from me in fear every time she sees me walking toward her :(

I just put a call in to the vet to see if it comes in ointment form. That might be a little easier to smear along the inside of her eye.

The eye drops are Tobramycin .3%. The oral is Baytril Suspension 32 mg. Tangerine flavored :). Have you had experience with those?
 
Ok, I figured it would be Baytril, just wanted to confirm. Baytril is a broad-spectrum antibiotic; while there are others in that category that are suitable for small animals (after bad experiences with my first sugar gliders and Baytril (they hated it and it killed my bonding attempts with one of them), I was able to request a different antibiotic the second time I had a glider get prescribed one), Baytril is by far the most commonly given.

Unfortunately, you shouldn't count on the Baytril actually working... though ofc you should give the full course even if it doesn't appear to be helping, as "always finish the course" is a cardinal rule of antibiotics (the obvious exception being if it causes dangerous side-effects). You might get lucky and clear up the infection with a round of Baytril, but it seems fairly common for URIs to be resistant to it. [That's not to say I question your vet's choice to use it, mind you! Rabbit savvy vets pretty much always whip out the Baytril for the first round of URI treatment and there IS a good chance it will be effective... there's just also a good chance that it won't.]

If she's not 100% better by the time you've finished the Baytril, you'll want to take her back in to the vet. At this point, the common options are to try another round of Baytril, to try a different broad-spectrum antibiotic and/or to do a culture (which determines what antibiotics the infection is resistant/susceptible to) and treat with a targeted antibiotic.

Don't get discouraged if this first round of treatment isn't effective - it's not at all uncommon for it to take a few rounds (and some trial-and-error/culturing) to fully cure a URI. As long as she doesn't get significantly worse and her eating habits and breathing aren't suffering, there's no cause for concern - just stay on top of medications and vet visits until you find something that works.

I don't remember... have I mentioned probiotics? If you weren't given one, I highly recommend asking the vet about it... if they don't carry them, you can buy something like BeneBac Plus in some pet stores and feed stores; failing that, it's extremely easy to find online (heck, I sell it on my site). Baytril, like all broad-spectrum antibiotics, is pretty nasty - it targets indiscriminately and can kill off good bacteria in the digestive tract, leading to serious side effects like nausea (which can cause a bunny to stop eating and develop GI stasis) and diarrhea. Probiotics should always be given with antibiotics (though not within around 3 hours in either direction of an antibiotic dose) - they negate (or failing that, severely reduce) the side effects of antibiotics.

As for the eye drops, I'm not familiar with those or with using eye drops as part of URI treatment... but then, I'm hardly an expert on URIs. I found information on Medirabbit that says "Cephalosporin/tobramycin (both should be use in injected form only)" and Tobramycin isn't on this list of rabbit-safe antibiotics (also part of the Medirabbit site); however, I suspect the warning is in regards to it being unsafe to give orally, not about the safety of using it in eye drops. The HRS site's page on antibiotics (which, while it doesn't seem to mention probiotics, also has a great explanation of the potential side effects of antibiotics that probiotics can counter) DOES list Tobramycin, citing it as *unsafe* to give orally or by injection but *safe* in eye drop form. HRS completely revamped/updated their site within the last six months to a year (more recently than Medirabbit). I also found mention of Tobramycin eye drops being given to a rabbit on BinkyBunny's forum and in a couple other places.

I haven't found anything on using eye drops for a URI in rabbits (when eye issues weren't also involved), but I did find something about a guinea pig's URI being treated with Tobramycin eye drops in addition to an oral antibiotic. I haven't found anything that makes me think they shouldn't be given to a rabbit for a URI (ie it's contraindicated), but I also don't know if that's actually an effective treatment.

The fact that your vet prescribed the eye drops right off the bat in addition to the usual Baytril may suggest that she's experienced with rabbit URIs - they tend to have to be treated very aggressively, often with a combination of antibiotics, so a two-pronged attack right off the bat indicates a savvy vet *if* said attack is a viable one for a URI (which I honestly can't determine one way or the other in this case).

My guess as to a possible reason behind prescribing the eye drops is this: the Tobramycin in the eye drops will make it into the blood stream and therefore be distributed throughout your rabbit's body (including her lungs). Eye drops are being used for a respiratory infection simply because that's the only safe way to administer Tobramycin, which isn't given to rabbits often and is fairly unlikely to be resisted by the bacteria. This sounds iffy, but that may just be because I know little about it; the "iffyness" being due to the fact that Wikipedia says that when Tobramycin is being used for systemic purposes, it needs to be injected into the bloodstream or muscle (neither of which is safe for a rabbit, of course) and that ophthalmic formulas (ie eye drops) have low systemic absorption (meaning they're fairly ineffective for infections located in an area other than the eye(s)). That's specifically in regards to human use, though, and for all I know it could be different for rabbits.

At any rate, it appears the eye drops are reasonably safe for rabbits (as in no more unsafe than any other antibiotic approved for rabbit use), so I see no reason not to use them as they were prescribed.

As for getting them into her eyes, have you tried flipping her over and holding her on her back in one arm (the way you might for nail trims)? With human children who are squeamish about eye drops, parents often have them lie on their back as a means of making the drops easier to administer and I suspect the same trick might help for rabbits. Even without being tranced (a practice I don't recommend), a rabbit tends to be far more compliant once you have them fully flipped. (If that's something you'd be up for trying but you're not used to flipping her on her back, I've got a video I made that shows how I flip my rabbits over that I can share.)
 
This has turned into a nightmare. This is exactly the sort of situation I've been fearing the last 8 years. I can catch her & get those stinkin eye drops in her eyes but not without causing her a huge amount of stress. I am NOT going to spend the next 9 days terrorizing that creature. After what I've put her through the last few days she probably already hates & fears me as it is.

But now she's had 4 doses of those freakin eye drops, so if I stop now she could get an even worse infection as it is, right? Or could the Baytril alone be enough to knock out the infection??

The lady who gave her to me told me in no uncertain terms that I'd just wasted a lot of money taking her to the vet & putting her on meds that aren't going to work. When her rabbits get sick she gives them 5 daily injections of some penicillin thing. But now that I've started Bunny on these other meds I guess I have finish them, right? Well, the Baytril anyway. No more eye drops.

Sorry if I sound angry & frustrated. I am, but not at you. I really do appreciate all the help you've given me. I'm just upset because I want what's best for my little girl & I don't know anymore what to do.
 
Why exactly did the vet prescribe eye drops? Does your bun have any ocular discharge? I've never heard of prescribing eye medication for a URI when there are no signs of eye problems.

You need to keep in mind that though this other lady you are talking to may be very experienced with rabbits, she is also not a vet. And a good rabbit vet is going to provide your bun with the best medical care possible. From your description this lady sounds like she is a breeder. Many breeders have lots of experience with rabbits and having to give certain treatments themselves. Pet owners typically don't so it is always best and safest to go to a vet. Penicillin is one option that can be used, but typically baytril is the first antibiotic tried for this type of thing, because it is a safer antibiotic for rabbits, and it can be given orally, which is usually easiest for pet owners to do. If you think eye drops are proving difficult to give to your bun, imagine having to give your bun injections. Also, 5 days isn't really long enough to be giving a course of antibiotics. That is just long enough to start to have an effect on the bacteria, but not long enough to kill off the bacteria, in which case the bacteria will come back more resistant.

Finish the baytril. It's important to finish antibiotic courses. The only reason you shouldn't is if there is a severe reaction to the med. Then once it's finished, you and your vet can evaluate if this has done the job or if a different antibiotic may be needed. If your bun doesn't have an eye infection, you could call the vet and ask why the drops were prescribed. If you decide you do need to continue them, one way of holding your bun to do it, would be to kneel with your bun between your legs. Use your feet to keep your bun from backing out, and use your hands to keep your bun from going forward. You could also have something like a box or wall in front of you to keep your bun from going forward. Then try administering the drops this way.

I'm sorry this has been frustrating for you. Medicating a non compliant animal, is never easy, but just remind yourself it is necessary and for her own good, and won't last forever. Treating a URI is necessary. It can lead to destruction of the nasal cavity, abscesses, pneumonia, if left untreated. So you are doing the right thing.
 
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You definitely need to talk to your vet about the eye drops to find out why they were given and either ask if there's any way you could stop giving them or, if you're dead set on it regardless of what the vet says, then just inform them that the eye drops just aren't going to happen (rather than asking if you can stop them) - if you don't give the full course, the vet needs to know this as it could be relevant later if the baytril doesn't take care of things.
 

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