Panacur / EC / other

[louise_81]

A bit of background as I am new here.

I got Charlie almost a year to the day, he was soon followed by Autumn in October. They were a happy couple until around March this year, when I bonded them with my other pair, Granite and Sophie.

Since Bonding Autumn had gradually lost weight and condition, but I put it down to bonding and not getting enough food, so I added more food. I feel like such a fool now. Charlie has also lost weight but not as much as Autumn.

Autumn died almost 2 weeks ago and since then I have had the rabbits (including my new one) on Panacur, as I suspected EC, dispite her only symptom, up until the day she died, being weight loss. I discussed with the vet who recommended a 9 day course of panacur.

I phoned the vets todayto explain that Charlie had vastly improved, putting weight on, much more active etc., and asked should I continue? I am on day 14 as I read elsewhere that a 28 day course is more effective.

Reply was that as he has shown not neurological signs of EC that I should not continue with the panacur, but treat 2-4 times a year. Thing is Autumn never showed neurological signs until the day she died (or I didn't pick up on any

)

As there were no neurological signs in Autumn, do you think it could have been something else?

 

[tonyshuman]

We have several members who are experienced with EC. One has had a lot of success with a drug called Marquis (ponazuril) as the antiprotozoal drug. There is not a lot of evidence to support that the bendazole drugs (like Panacur, which is fenbendazole) are very effective at treating EC. I think Marquis is available in the UK; here in the US it is approved for horses. I am sure Randy will see this topic and reply, and he may even be able to consult with your vet about the success he has had with Marquis. I have heard a lot of sad stories where treatment with Panacur, even over months, did not resolve the illness.

I'm so sorry you lost Autumn. EC is such a terrible disease--your bunny friend literally wastes away. A member named Cheryl had a bunny named Pippi whose story sticks with me particularly strongly, and it was very trying for her. I'm glad Charlie is feeling better, but it may be good to try another antiprotozoal to make sure that he will be ok. Some bunnies can have EC without very obvious neurological symptoms. One that commonly goes unnoticed is hind leg weakness, which is an early sign of EC.

 

[louise_81]

Thanks for that, I was pointed in the forums direction, by a member from here, who uses a forum I use. Never heard of it until today.

As my vet never examined any of the buns for E.C., only consultedover the phone, after Autumn's death,and I didn't get a Post mortem, so I can't be 100% sure it is EC. It is this that is leading me to question things now. I don't want to stop treating in case anthing happens to Charlie, the other 2 look ok.

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

So sorry for the loss of Autumn as it is never easy. But I doubt the problem was EC.

EC is most likely the most misunderstood, misdiagnosed and mistreated issue a rabbit can present. There is so much incorrect information about EC. I have dealt with EC quite a bit. My domestic rescue is named after a rabbit we lost, Sabrina, and we had no idea what caused her numerous problems. I know now we lost her due to secondary infections from EC. For me, it's personal and I have a score to settle with that little worm.

EC is carried sub-clinically in nearly every domestic rabbit. The mostlikely transmission route is trans-placental.....passed from the mother to the kit at birth. It can also be spread during contact with urine from an infected rabbits as the spores are shedding. The initial presentations of EC are usually a very small paresis in the hind quarter....most often the left rear leg and many will be soaked with urine. At this point, many vets (and few vets have actually seen a full blown case of EC) will diagnose a UTI and treat for that. And the presentations may diminish or disappear leading to an incorrect assumption. It is actually the rabbit's immune system mounting a response. But, EC is a wasting disease and it will overwhelm the immune system. This will allow various infections in different parts of the body. Vestibular (ear) infections are quite common and that leads to the mistaken belief that EC causes head tilt. Not so....the compromised immune system can't respond to the ear infection. Eye, upper and lower respiratory and UTI issues are common. EC itself is not fatal but most rabbits with active EC are lost either due to the infections allowed due to the stressed immune system or by total renal failure due to kidney damage caused by the spores of the EC. EC is a protozoan and again contrary to popular belief or as stated on several web sites....drugs such as Ivermective, Penicillin or Baytril (or most other drugs) are not effective.

The "bendazoles"....Al, Oxy and Fen.....have been considered the drugs of choice in recent years to treat EC. Fenbendazole (Panacur) is the latest and greatest of this family of horse wormers. The generally accepted protocols for using these drugs are that the drug be administered every day for 28 days....I have done 60. The problem with using these types of drugs is that the parasite is in the brain and the brain is "protected" by a filter like membrane (a brutally simple explanation) called the "Blood/brain Barrier". It's function is to filter anything that can threaten the brain. Odd thing....the parasite can get thru the barrier but the drug can't. The idea behind the dosing protocol is the hope that some of the drug will get thru. A much more promising treatment is a horse product made by Bayer and is called Ponazuril....sold as Marquis. It comes only in a large syringe of paste and is not exactly what we call inexpensive...in fact, it is quite costly. It is very effective at treating a related infection in horses calle Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM). The drug easily passes the barrier in horses. And we treat horses and rabbits alike.

EC is a very challenging issue....not so much the EC itself but the infections it causes and the renal support required. We had a rabbit that fought active EC for a couple of years....and we went thru fluids and needles like crazy as he was getting fluids every day. But eventually the kidneys become too damaged to do any filtering at all. Every EC rabbit we have lost here has been due to acute renal failure. EC is a slow killer and it takes it's own sweet time in doing so. While weight loss can be a symptom shown with EC rabbits, I think Charlie might have just plain old every day intestinal parasites and I would most likely treat for that. And a heavy infestation of parasites can be fatal.

And a final note about EC. The only true confirmation of EC is post mortem. There will be distinct lesions in brain and obvious scarring and pitting in the kidneys. There is a blood titer but it only demonstrates the exposure to EC and should be used a part of the puzzle. And the major problem with treating EC is that by the time you actually see neurological presentations in a true EC event, the damage in the brain is already happening. The real challenge we face, and something we so sorely need, is a vaccine to prevent an active infection. Maybe one day.

Randy

 

[bunnymommy76]

Hi Randy
I don't know if you are aware or not but I lost my Pidgey a little over a month ago. I have talked to you before about the possibilities of him having EC, and to this day I still think that was what killed him! He had all the "symptoms" weakness in his left leg, he didnt use the litter box anymore, his feet were so urine scalded he wore baby socks. I took him into the emergency vet because he couldn't breath, they had him on oxygen all day, but he never came back home because he started having seizures. I just wanted your take on it, do you think he really had EC? When he had the titer done a few months ago it came out moderatly positive, whatever that means. The vet didnt really seem to concerned about it but she said I can give him oxyibenzadole for a month if I wanted, which I did opt to do. We redid the titer at that point and it was lower. The vet said that if he had EC his count would have been through the roof even being treated for it, is that true? why was is levels lower after taking the 30 day dose, if he didnt have something going on? I didnt have a post mortem done, although now I wish I would have.
My biggest concern now is Wrigley, if Pidge did have EC, should Wrigley be treated for it as a precaution? I'm so worried about loosing him now because he picked up Pidge's urine spores. Your advice on all of this will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Julie

 

[ra7751]

Hi Julie,

I certainly remember Pidgey. While EC doesn't seem to be fatal in itself, what it causes certainly can be. As I mentioned, we lost Sabrina to EC when nobody knew what EC was. To me, it appeared she died quickly. When I started learning about EC, I knew she had been sick for quite some time. She too lost weight and was urine soaked. With her, we lost her to liver failure....and she was the only EC rabbit we lost to anything other than renal failure. I quickly learned the presentations of an active EC infection. And with that quick learning, I have been able to "stalemate" EC for quite some time after intitial presentations. I know what infections to look for, I know how to modify husbandry to get the body to respond and I know how to support the renal system....and all of this up to a point. Death is part of life and we can only delay it so long especially when dealing with an "enemy" like EC.

In this particular thread, the fact that weight was gained soon after administering Panacur leads me to think that intestinal parasites are at work. While EC does cause weight loss by it's secondary problems, those problems would not be resolved by using a dewormer. If a maor organ had been compromised, the damage would still be there. And since we know that Panacur has a difficult time passing the blood/brain barrier, even if EC did cause this, there would not have been sufficient time for the drug to work....and at only a few days dosing, the levels would not even be high enough in the body much less thru the barrier.

As far as treating Wrigley, he most likely already carries the protozoa as do nearly every domestic rabbit. And most likely this infection came before he was born. I have often wondered if doing a "pre-emptive" stirke would be effective. There is no way to clinically tell....so if you did treat, it would be more for a "peace of mind" for yourself since there is no way to know. There is no real way to definitely see the infection except post mortem. And the blood test, a titer, only demonstrates exposure to the protozoa and every rabbit will most likely titer positive. Since we have never had a problem using Panacur, I would see no problem doing that but knowing that it might not even be able to penetrate the blood brain barrier. If nothing else, it will take care of most intestinal parasites. If I were to do a "pre-emptive"....it would be using Ponazuril (Marquis). This treatment protocol is certainly in it's "infancy" and few vets are aware of using this drug. But in the real world.....just like all coccidia, the best and only known effectivetreatment for this type of parasite is a strong immune system. And why it is so important to do everything you can to provide a comfortable and stress free life which is so important to a healthy immune system. And I know that many will aruge that Albon or SMZ is effective.....it isn't. And SMZ can be harmful to the beneficial bacteria in the GI.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

ra7751 wrote:

In this particular thread, the fact that weight was gained soon after administering Panacur leads me to think that intestinal parasites are at work. While EC does cause weight loss by it's secondary problems, those problems would not be resolved by using a dewormer.

I agree with this!!

 

[louise_81]

OK, took Charlie et al, off Panacur on this advice, on the 5th, he had a good body mass (ie I couldn't feel his bones, like I could before Panacur), after 5 days off panacur I am starting to feel his hip bones again this is how it started before. His feet are matted, not sure if this is related, as it has been raining for the past week, but 2 days of sunshine and a bit of grooming should have sorted them out surely.
Vet appointment tomorrow (Not for Charlie, but hes going too now )

 

[tonyshuman]

Ok. You should ask the vet to test his feces for parasites, if possible.

 

[louise_81]

Just an update.

Charlie was weighted on the 11th (at the vets), and again at the vets on the 24th and he has lost 150g.

I am still worried, the vet wants to run blood tests, but didn't explain what for.

I also had to take another bunny as since her VHD 2 weeks ago, ahe has lost so much weight and is currently skeletal, just like Autumn was before she passed.

Added problem with this girls is she was a stray to beging with, and ate limited hay, she is now refusing all hay (6 different types), her teeth have been checked 3 times in the past 6 weeks, with nothing showing.

She and Charlie are both on a bowl of porridge, which is helping Charlie but not Cherry. Should I put them all back on Panacur?

 

[tonyshuman]

Did the vet check the feces for parasites? I don't know exactly what could be going on. It could be EC, but general loss of weight and body tone would be more likely to be an internal parasite. The tooth issue is also worrying. Since they couldn't see any problems, it may be useful to get an x-ray of the teeth to determine if the roots are ok. It can be impossible to see problems with the tooth roots without an x-ray.